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Anonymous
3:36 AM
0
Q: Making 『たくさん」act as a full-fledged 形容動詞{けいようどうし}

user312440dic.yahoo.co.jp、weblio.jp、and other dictionaries, state that the parts of speech for「たくさん」are noun and 形容動詞。imho, usage cases where たくさん is used as 形容詞 is uncommon. I have seen たくさん take the な particle in sentences such as "写真{しゃしん}がたくさんな記事{きじ}" . But, I have never seen たくさん take the に particle. ...

 
Anonymous
Would it be worth pointing out that な isn't a particle, or would that just distract from the discussion?
 
4:01 AM
I once tried to write a Japanese IME. It ended up kind of a disaster, but I learnt a lot and gained a lot of respect for the people who make those things...they are colossally complicated
I don't know about other IMEs like mozc etc, but canna has various *.p files with relative frequencies, I have a feeling they aren't absolute and are edited by hand (with a lot of trial and error) but I don't know
 
Anonymous
Part of the problem is getting enough data :-(
 
that's true
 
hey @snailboat, look!
7
Q: Why are the katakana important to learn?

AerovistaeI've just started, and everything says learn your hiragana and katakana first. The hiragana, very clear. I guess you can say an awful lot of things in Japanese with hiragana. But everything I've been reading all seems to say that katakana are mostly used to form loanwords from other languages. I...

when i first started japanese 18 months ago, i asked this same question! you protected it
then i took 16 months off.
 
Anonymous
Hehe!
 
Anonymous
Well, welcome back :-)
 
4:08 AM
thxthx
 
Anonymous
@Aerovistae English without loanwords would be incomprehensible
 
Anonymous
Just as Japanese without loanwords would be
 
oh god this again
 
Anonymous
They're too ingrained
 
Anonymous
Uncleftish Beholding (1989) is a short text written by Poul Anderson. It is written using almost exclusively words of Germanic origin, and was intended to illustrate what the English language might look like if it had not received its considerable number of loanwords from other languages, particularly Latin, Greek and French. The text is about basic atomic theory and relies on a number of word coinings, many of which have analogues in modern German, an important scientific language in its own right. The title "uncleftish beholding" calques "atomic theory". The text begins: For most of its being...
 
4:10 AM
hold on i have to go re-read
so i can pick up my arguments where i left off.
oh, that's an interesting link
assuming you read the comments beneath that question, you already know the argument i'm making, that after hundreds of years of usage and reshaping, these words no longer count as loanwords
 
Anonymous
You're saying they're nativized.
 
they are modern english words whose roots can be traced back to loanwords.
yes.
 
Anonymous
All English loanwords are modern English words.
 
okay, not modern-- "native"
 
Anonymous
The English word ninja is not a Japanese word
 
Anonymous
4:14 AM
It is an English word derived from the Japanese word
 
what's the japanese word, out of curiosity?
 
Anonymous
Ninja
 
....
(?)
 
Anonymous
The English word ninja is derived from the Japanese word ninja
 
Anonymous
4:15 AM
It does not continue to be a Japanese word after it's loaned into English
 
i see what you're saying, i think
yes
 
Anonymous
Futon has its own pronunciation, meaning, and regularized plural in English
 
Anonymous
So it's clearly a distinct word by any standard
 
at any rate that debate was largely semantic-- it was about how you defined "loanword," and apparently my perspective varied with the other JLU users
 
Anonymous
We just say loanword to refer to its origin
 
Anonymous
4:16 AM
Well, from linguists
 
Anonymous
It's useful to talk about loanwords centuries after they've been loaned
 
Anonymous
For various reasons, for example in terms of differing phonology for loanwords and native words
 
yes, i would only consider something a loanword if it were still written the same as it originally was....that's just the way i think of it.
 
Anonymous
Or for semantic properties of various sorts associated with different loanword strata
 
but linguistically, yes, i understand what you're saying
 
Anonymous
4:17 AM
A word can be loaned and never have been written down
 
please stop bending the rules i have constructed for my mind
 
Anonymous
Orthographies differ pretty greatly in how much they preserve etymological spelling
 
it is causing me pain
 
Anonymous
Some, like English, preserve spelling from hundreds of years ago
 
i have to think about this now
okay, let me adjust my previous assertion
 
Anonymous
4:19 AM
Japanese used to until a century ago, but then after the spelling reforms kana ended up (mostly) representing pronunciation instead of etymological spelling
 
Anonymous
English spelling used to actually be pretty close to pronunciation :-)
 
Anonymous
But we don't pronounce the k or gh in knight anymore :-(
 
:)
it's what makes our language unique and interesting
i like the inconsistency, it adds character
i have not encountered it in any other language i have studied
they all have their unique attributes as well, of course
 
Anonymous
Look up shallow versus deep orthographies
 
i will! but friends just got here, got to go for now
don't let me forget!
ttyl
 
5:09 AM
It never ceases to amaze me the amount of collective linguistic knowledge there is in this chat room! Really makes me want to read more on the subject.
It'd probably be possible, pretty sure there's some kind of advanced algorithm canna use with the base word+stem to make sure uncommon word+stem combinations don't show up high on the list, but when you think about it there are potentially hundreds/thousands of combinations of bases/prefixes etc for each word, and each would need to be graded so might need to be done using cloud computing to give a more accurate frequency
Theoretically, I think you could build a "language tree" with all the possible stems etc for a Japanese word listed by frequency using IME data and search the opposite way as well, I tried to do that at one stage
The data files themselves are just like a programming language with all sorts of recursive links, like "if in x combination, y can be chained, but not if it includes z", but there would be false positives if used in this way as words tend to be grouped into big categories by rough grammatical type
 
5:24 AM
@cypher sometimes it makes me want to read more... but after reading some paper, then I'm like "nope" haha
@snailboat is it like "sushi" or "karaoke"?
As in they're already so integrated in English and you can say that they are English words although they originated from JP
nvm, I just finished reading your older chat messages <- I should do that more often
 
Anonymous
5:49 AM
 
6:58 AM
@snailboat Just so you know, I'm aware of this issue where Furigana gets squished in mobile WebKit/Blink browsers, but the only way I know around it is to poll for changes and make the Furigana font the ...px size of the surrounding text, which I think could have side effects. I've tested using Google Chrome on Android on the mobile site and it didn't have this problem though, so I hope the Furigana script can be added to it.
 
konnichiwa
 
Anonymous
7:13 AM
Kanji of the day: 邂逅
 
Anonymous
7:37 AM
@cypher That's an interesting-sounding workaround―it sounds fragile
 
9:35 AM
Was looking up 入所
Definition 2 was
> 刑務所にはいること
Read it as 刑務所 [ には ] [ いる ] こと - "being at prison"
before I realized it's はいる or 入る
 
Second rookie mistake:
> ... 所と名のつくところ ...
I thought it's the と that means "and"
After consulting other sources, I realizes it's the と in という
 
=『「~~所」という名前の付くところ』
 
9:52 AM
yeah
Before that I was like: what does "所のつく" even mean?
 
名をつける = TRANSITIVE
名がつく = INTRANSITIVE
が=の
 
名づけ親≒GODFATHER
 
for a second there, I thought you were talking about this Godfather
 
I thought you might think of that.
 
10:01 AM
Say, what do you think about 英辞郎? Is it reliable?
 
It is OK. I would try not to get hooked on it, though, if I were learning Japanese (or English). It is too easy. I am almost happy there was no internet when I was learning English.
 
Too... easy?
That said, internet does have a lot of sketchy resources
 
You don't have to "think" as it gives you the answers instantly.
Even if you get perfectly natural and correct sentences from it, it is not something YOU formed.
 
 
8 hours later…
Anonymous
6:33 PM
Try Google Translate - and among other meanings - there is Japan.. That's why I posted this question. — Ernestas Gruodis 21 mins ago
 
Anonymous
I can't imagine one could learn any language successfully from Google Translate…
 
Anonymous
Earlier this week a user was relying on Google Translate to read kanji
 
Anonymous
And Google Translate came up with the reading フィアンセ for 婚約者
 
Anonymous
Statistical MT! :-)
 
Anonymous
6:37 PM
(At the time, we were discussing 漢語, so that would not have been the right reading!)
 
Anonymous
I signed up for the JLPT!
 
Haha.
Oh, nice. When is it going to be?
 
Anonymous
It's the first Sunday in December
 
Anonymous
So, December 7th
 
Anonymous
Then in March they send me a piece of paper telling me that I failed! :-)
 
Anonymous
6:38 PM
It takes them a quarter of a year because it's a Scantron test, and therefore they have to grade each one by hand. In series.
 
Anonymous
I started out that sentence with generic you and ended up replacing it with me halfway through, so I got a weird sentence :-)
 
Wow, that's a bit silly.
My friend took it a while ago
He similarly had never cared about it. Then he decided he would take it so he could continue to make fun of people who really care about it a lot.
I don't think he's gotten the results back yet, but I'm pretty damn sure he's going to pass. His Japanese is ridiculously good.
 
Anonymous
I'm supposed to take it so I can commiserate with my study buddy!
 
7:27 PM
Looks like my friend passed with a 148/160.
 
Anonymous
Yippee!
 
The 12 points were lost in the 読解 category, apparently.
 
Anonymous
I wonder why it's 160 instead of 180
 
That's because I can't type
168/180
Apparently it's curved though: jlpt.jp/about/pdf/scaledscore_j.pdf
 
7:47 PM
hello again!
trying to grasp the difference (if any) between じ and ぢ
both seem to be ji
 
Anonymous
Yes, they used to be distinct but merged some centuries ago for most speakers
 
Anonymous
There are a couple small pockets of Japan where speakers distinguish them still
 
so i can spell a word with either one?
interchangeably?
 
Anonymous
Sometimes. Treat じ as the basic one. Use ぢ for a reduplicated voiced mora, like 縮める = ちぢめる
 
Anonymous
Just like for 続ける = つづける
 
Anonymous
7:50 PM
Rather than つずける
 
i cannot read kanji :)
 
Anonymous
There are words for which either spelling is allowed: 跪く = ひざまずく or ひざまづく
 
Anonymous
I am giving you the kana so you don't have to
 
oh
whoops
yes i see that now, i am very slow
 
Anonymous
This is a matter of spelling
 
7:51 PM
are you always on here? or just on weekends
 
Anonymous
So I could just say memorize it for each word you learn
 
Anonymous
I am here pretty often
 
how long have you been learning?
 
Anonymous
A long time, although I'm still not all that great at the language :-)
 
Anonymous
17 years
 
7:52 PM
any particular reason?
 
Anonymous
Not really
 
just out of love?
 
Anonymous
When I started learning, I wanted a distraction, something challenging that would take my full attention
 
Anonymous
That reason is long since gone :-)
 
:)
i am still trying to slowly read the kana you wrote out loud to myself
つづ
i do not know how to say that
reduplicated voiced mora...
 
Anonymous
7:54 PM
Umm
 
it's....not....tsutsu
tsuzu
 
Anonymous
When you see the same kana but the second one has a ゛ voicing mark
 
Anonymous
ちぢめる not *ちじめる
つづける not *つずける
 
Anonymous
It's just a spelling rule
 
Anonymous
There's no difference in pronunciation there
 
7:55 PM
but i mean regardless of spelling
do you just pronounce that as it looks? tsuzu?
no special rule?
 
Anonymous
Yes つづく is like tsuzuku
 
okay perfect
 
Anonymous
There are rules for the pronunciation of づ・ず and じ・ぢ
 
just checking it wasn't something fucked up like "laugh"
 
Anonymous
But to simplify a little, the pronunciation is either z or dz for both of them
 
Anonymous
7:56 PM
And people generally don't notice the difference between the z and dz
 
neat.
thanks.
 
Anonymous
Just like how in English we think we say the same /p/ sound in spin and pin
 
don't we???
 
Anonymous
No, the /p/ in pin is aspirated
 
Anonymous
To a native speaker of a language where aspirated and non-aspirated p are two different consonants, they sound totally different!
 
Anonymous
7:57 PM
Because their ears are trained to hear the difference :-)
 
Anonymous
But we native speakers perceive them as the same sound
 
i hate that
 
Anonymous
Likewise, Japanese speakers generally don't notice that there are two ways to pronounce the じ・ぢ sound
 
it's very in-the-way
 
Anonymous
You do the one with d at the beginning of words or after ん (I am simplifying again)
 
7:58 PM
it's exactly why i can't pronounce dame yet
 
Anonymous
If you'd really like to get the exact pronunciation down, pick up a copy of Timothy Vance's The Sounds of Japanese (2008)
 
you are a treasure trove
 
Anonymous
It is a technical book, but very precise
 
i don't think i'm quite ready for that (don't even know how to say "I" yet)
but it's getting jotted down
 
Anonymous
8:00 PM
わたし
 
okay i did know that
lol.
 
Anonymous
There are lots of ways to say "I", but that's the most basic and neutral one everyone can use :-)
 
but there are like 7 ways aren't there?
yeah
 
Anonymous
Japanese has dozens of first person pronouns
 
Anonymous
8:01 PM
The original わたくし has lots of reduced forms: わたくし・あたくし・わたし・あたし・あたい・あて・わっし・わし・あっし・あし・わたい・わて・わい・わっち
 
DOZENS?
 
Anonymous
Then there is ぼく and おれ and archaic pronouns like よ or わらわ
 
watakushi??
haven't heard that yet.
 
Anonymous
That is the original word that became a first person pronoun
 
Anonymous
You'll hear the full version only in rather formal style
 
Anonymous
8:02 PM
The reduced form わたし is now the most common and neutral form
 
Anonymous
The versions beginning with /a/ like あたし are mostly considered feminine
 
Anonymous
Then there are first person pronouns you'll hear in fiction, like せっしゃ (used by stereotypical samurai)
 
Anonymous
There are a lot of them
 
oh my
 
Anonymous
But you don't have to memorize most of them right now
 
8:03 PM
yes, i know
...thank god...
 
Anonymous
Haha!
 
how do you type the kana?
what tool do you use?
 
Anonymous
I use an input method
 
yes, which
 
Anonymous
Every modern OS has a Japanese input method available
 
8:04 PM
hmm
 
Anonymous
Are you asking me out of curiosity or looking for a recommendation?
 
Anonymous
If the latter, you should say what OS you're on
 
Anonymous
 
Anonymous
Lots of people recommend the Google input method!
 
i use both pc and mac equally, but i can figure it out i think....you're right, probably just switching a setting on
oh my god
i can't read that page lol
 
Anonymous
8:05 PM
Yes, both Windows and OS X have built in input methods for Japanese you can turn on
 
Anonymous
You click the blue button, then check the box to automatically send data to Google (if you want to do that), then click the left button "agree and install"
 
thanks
i suppose by now it's part of the distant past of your self-education, but do you remember there being any kana that were easy for you to memorize? like, they stood out in particular? i ask because for me, no and shi stuck like glue the second i learned them originally and i never forgot them, despite forgetting all the other kana. to me they were immediately as identifiable as any letter from the english alphabet, i didn't have to think about what they were.
did you get that for any characters?
 
Anonymous
I remember there were a few that I had a harder time memorizing
 
Anonymous
I made a mnemonic for ゆ. It's "YU are a fish" because ゆ looks like a fish :-)
 
Anonymous
There are always some things that you just remember with no effort
 
Anonymous
8:10 PM
Like when I saw the kanji 査 in a kanji dictionary, just flipping through
 
Anonymous
It stuck in my mind and I never forgot it
 
what is that one?
 
Anonymous
But there'll also be other stuff that won't stick, even though it seems like it shouldn't be any harder :-)
 
tree over .... eye?
 
Anonymous
It is さ
 
8:10 PM
chi!
what is chi....you mean like chi energy?
 
Anonymous
木 + 且
 
Anonymous
さ is sa
 
Anonymous
"Chi" is a Chinese word.
 
Anonymous
In Japanese, it is called "ki"
 
oh shoot.
 
Anonymous
8:11 PM
And "ki" is written 気 in kanji
 
don't have them perfect yet
 
Anonymous
気 is very important in Japanese
 
Anonymous
It is used in an absolutely enormous number of idioms
 
oh i confused chi and sa because they're so close to each other.
damn.
oh well.
i guess i will learn the utility of this ki you speak of as I go
(Still trying to get google IME to work)
 
Anonymous
Yes, that's okay, it's easy to make that sort of mistake :-)
 
Anonymous
8:14 PM
You might not realize this, but we misread letters occasionally even in our own native languages
 
Anonymous
So don't feel too bad about mixing them up in a language you're learning, it'll get easier :-)
 
こんなん笑うしかないでしょ。 http://t.co/ZCFzjml8JI
 
Lkie wehn it deonst mttaer if you mvoe aornud all the letters in the middle of the words?
 
Anonymous
@Aerovistae Hehe, tha's different… :-)
 
Anonymous
It does matter sometimes, by the way
 
Anonymous
8:16 PM
But you can do that in Japanese, too!
 
testing...
 
すし
 
Anonymous
せいこう!!
 
わたし
 
Anonymous
8:18 PM
おめでとう〜〜
 
seikou?
 
Anonymous
Success!
 
omedetou?
 
Anonymous
Congratulations!
 
hahaha
thanks
at least i can type hiragana now. no idea how to get kanji, but i won't be writing those anytime soon anyway, so.
 
Anonymous
8:19 PM
By the way
 
Anonymous
It's pronounced as though it's おめでとお
 
the doubled-vowels, i don't know how to treat them yet
 
Anonymous
"ou" is one of the few bits of kana spelling that doesn't always reflect pronunciation
 
so i don't know how to pronounce とお either
 
Anonymous
The difference between と and とお is that you say the exact same vowel but do it for about twice the amount of time
 
Anonymous
8:20 PM
In English, we tend to move our mouths while we say vowels so they start one place and end up in another. In Japanese, long vowels are generally holding your mouth in the same position
 
Anonymous
So just make an "o" sound and then keep making it :-)
 
Anonymous
Pretty easy!
 
Anonymous
Use your ears!
 
tooooooooooo
 
Anonymous
8:24 PM
:-)
 
there we go, keyboard shortcut set up so i can switch CRAZY FAST 私w
actually i have no idea why that kanji appeared
i typed watashi then hit space...and it changed...hmm
 
Anonymous
8:38 PM
I use shift-space
 
Anonymous
I used to have a Japanese keyboard with keys to switch input modes but I don't these days
 
Anonymous
To type kanji in Japanese
 
Anonymous
1. Type the kana for the word
 
Anonymous
(using romaji)
 
Anonymous
2. Hit space to convert to kanji
 
8:38 PM
why is janai spelled じやない ?
oh, ja is jiya
 
Anonymous
Little ya
 
Anonymous
So it's different from jiya
 
Anonymous
じゃ not じや
 
what is little ya?
 
Anonymous
In Kunrei romanization it would be zya
 
Anonymous
8:39 PM
And じ would be zi
 
Anonymous
That is closer to kana
 
Anonymous
I am about to eat
 
Anonymous
Your book should explain it
 
Anonymous
Whatever book you may or may not have :-)
 
thanks :)
 

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