Japanese Language - 2014-09-28

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Anonymous

3:36 AM

0

Q: Making 『たくさん」act as a full-fledged 形容動詞{けいようどうし}

dic.yahoo.co.jp、weblio.jp、and other dictionaries, state that the parts of speech for「たくさん」are noun and 形容動詞。imho, usage cases where たくさん is used as 形容詞 is uncommon. I have seen たくさん take the な particle in sentences such as "写真{しゃしん}がたくさんな記事{きじ}" . But, I have never seen たくさん take the に particle. ...

Anonymous

Would it be worth pointing out that な isn't a particle, or would that just distract from the discussion?

4:01 AM

I once tried to write a Japanese IME. It ended up kind of a disaster, but I learnt a lot and gained a lot of respect for the people who make those things...they are colossally complicated

I don't know about other IMEs like mozc etc, but canna has various *.p files with relative frequencies, I have a feeling they aren't absolute and are edited by hand (with a lot of trial and error) but I don't know

Anonymous

Part of the problem is getting enough data :-(

that's true

hey @snailboat, look!

7

Q: Why are the katakana important to learn?

I've just started, and everything says learn your hiragana and katakana first. The hiragana, very clear. I guess you can say an awful lot of things in Japanese with hiragana. But everything I've been reading all seems to say that katakana are mostly used to form loanwords from other languages. I...

loanwords katakana

when i first started japanese 18 months ago, i asked this same question! you protected it

then i took 16 months off.

Anonymous

Hehe!

Anonymous

Well, welcome back :-)

4:08 AM

thxthx

Anonymous

@Aerovistae English without loanwords would be incomprehensible

Anonymous

Just as Japanese without loanwords would be

oh god this again

Anonymous

They're too ingrained

Anonymous

Uncleftish Beholding

Uncleftish Beholding (1989) is a short text written by Poul Anderson. It is written using almost exclusively words of Germanic origin, and was intended to illustrate what the English language might look like if it had not received its considerable number of loanwords from other languages, particularly Latin, Greek and French. The text is about basic atomic theory and relies on a number of word coinings, many of which have analogues in modern German, an important scientific language in its own right. The title "uncleftish beholding" calques "atomic theory". The text begins: For most of its being...

4:10 AM

hold on i have to go re-read

so i can pick up my arguments where i left off.

oh, that's an interesting link

assuming you read the comments beneath that question, you already know the argument i'm making, that after hundreds of years of usage and reshaping, these words no longer count as loanwords

Anonymous

You're saying they're nativized.

they are modern english words whose roots can be traced back to loanwords.

yes.

Anonymous

All English loanwords are modern English words.

okay, not modern-- "native"

Anonymous

The English word ninja is not a Japanese word

Anonymous

4:14 AM

It is an English word derived from the Japanese word

what's the japanese word, out of curiosity?

Anonymous

Ninja

....

(?)

Anonymous

The English word ninja is derived from the Japanese word ninja

oh

Anonymous

4:15 AM

It does not continue to be a Japanese word after it's loaned into English

i see what you're saying, i think

yes

Anonymous

Futon has its own pronunciation, meaning, and regularized plural in English

Anonymous

So it's clearly a distinct word by any standard

at any rate that debate was largely semantic-- it was about how you defined "loanword," and apparently my perspective varied with the other JLU users

Anonymous

We just say loanword to refer to its origin

Anonymous

4:16 AM

Well, from linguists

Anonymous

It's useful to talk about loanwords centuries after they've been loaned

Anonymous

For various reasons, for example in terms of differing phonology for loanwords and native words

yes, i would only consider something a loanword if it were still written the same as it originally was....that's just the way i think of it.

Anonymous

Or for semantic properties of various sorts associated with different loanword strata

but linguistically, yes, i understand what you're saying

Anonymous

4:17 AM

A word can be loaned and never have been written down

please stop bending the rules i have constructed for my mind

Anonymous

Orthographies differ pretty greatly in how much they preserve etymological spelling

it is causing me pain

Anonymous

Some, like English, preserve spelling from hundreds of years ago

i have to think about this now

okay, let me adjust my previous assertion

Anonymous

4:19 AM

Japanese used to until a century ago, but then after the spelling reforms kana ended up (mostly) representing pronunciation instead of etymological spelling

Anonymous

English spelling used to actually be pretty close to pronunciation :-)

Anonymous

But we don't pronounce the k or gh in knight anymore :-(

:)

it's what makes our language unique and interesting

i like the inconsistency, it adds character

i have not encountered it in any other language i have studied

they all have their unique attributes as well, of course

Anonymous

Look up shallow versus deep orthographies

i will! but friends just got here, got to go for now

don't let me forget!

ttyl

5:09 AM

It never ceases to amaze me the amount of collective linguistic knowledge there is in this chat room! Really makes me want to read more on the subject.

It'd probably be possible, pretty sure there's some kind of advanced algorithm canna use with the base word+stem to make sure uncommon word+stem combinations don't show up high on the list, but when you think about it there are potentially hundreds/thousands of combinations of bases/prefixes etc for each word, and each would need to be graded so might need to be done using cloud computing to give a more accurate frequency

Theoretically, I think you could build a "language tree" with all the possible stems etc for a Japanese word listed by frequency using IME data and search the opposite way as well, I tried to do that at one stage

The data files themselves are just like a programming language with all sorts of recursive links, like "if in x combination, y can be chained, but not if it includes z", but there would be false positives if used in this way as words tend to be grouped into big categories by rough grammatical type

3 to 5 business days

5:24 AM

@cypher sometimes it makes me want to read more... but after reading some paper, then I'm like "nope" haha

@snailboat is it like "sushi" or "karaoke"?

As in they're already so integrated in English and you can say that they are English words although they originated from JP

nvm, I just finished reading your older chat messages <- I should do that more often

Anonymous

5:49 AM

user image

6:58 AM

@snailboat Just so you know, I'm aware of this issue where Furigana gets squished in mobile WebKit/Blink browsers, but the only way I know around it is to poll for changes and make the Furigana font the ...px size of the surrounding text, which I think could have side effects. I've tested using Google Chrome on Android on the mobile site and it didn't have this problem though, so I hope the Furigana script can be added to it.

konnichiwa

Anonymous

7:13 AM

Kanji of the day: 邂逅

Anonymous

7:37 AM

@cypher That's an interesting-sounding workaround―it sounds fragile

3 to 5 business days

9:35 AM

Was looking up 入所

Definition 2 was

> 刑務所にはいること

Read it as 刑務所 [ には ] [ いる ] こと - "being at prison"

before I realized it's はいる or 入る

3 to 5 business days

Second rookie mistake:

> ... 所と名のつくところ ...

I thought it's the と that means "and"

After consulting other sources, I realizes it's the と in という

＝『「～～所」という名前の付くところ』

3 to 5 business days

9:52 AM

yeah

Before that I was like: what does "所のつく" even mean?

名をつける　＝　TRANSITIVE

名がつく　＝　INTRANSITIVE

が＝の

3 to 5 business days

yeah

名づけ親≒GODFATHER

3 to 5 business days

for a second there, I thought you were talking about this Godfather

I thought you might think of that.

3 to 5 business days

10:01 AM

Say, what do you think about 英辞郎? Is it reliable?

It is OK. I would try not to get hooked on it, though, if I were learning Japanese (or English). It is too easy. I am almost happy there was no internet when I was learning English.

3 to 5 business days

Too... easy?

That said, internet does have a lot of sketchy resources

You don't have to "think" as it gives you the answers instantly.

Even if you get perfectly natural and correct sentences from it, it is not something YOU formed.

8 hours later…

Anonymous

6:33 PM

Try Google Translate - and among other meanings - there is Japan.. That's why I posted this question. — Ernestas Gruodis 21 mins ago

Anonymous

I can't imagine one could learn any language successfully from Google Translate…

Anonymous

Earlier this week a user was relying on Google Translate to read kanji

Anonymous

And Google Translate came up with the reading フィアンセ for 婚約者

Anonymous

Statistical MT! :-)

Anonymous

translate.google.com/#ja/en/…

Anonymous

6:37 PM

(At the time, we were discussing 漢語, so that would not have been the right reading!)

Anonymous

I signed up for the JLPT!

Darius Jahandarie

Haha.

Oh, nice. When is it going to be?

Anonymous

It's the first Sunday in December

Anonymous

So, December 7th

Anonymous

Then in March they send me a piece of paper telling me that I failed! :-)

Anonymous

6:38 PM

It takes them a quarter of a year because it's a Scantron test, and therefore they have to grade each one by hand. In series.

Anonymous

I started out that sentence with generic you and ended up replacing it with me halfway through, so I got a weird sentence :-)

Darius Jahandarie

Wow, that's a bit silly.

My friend took it a while ago

He similarly had never cared about it. Then he decided he would take it so he could continue to make fun of people who really care about it a lot.

I don't think he's gotten the results back yet, but I'm pretty damn sure he's going to pass. His Japanese is ridiculously good.

Anonymous

I'm supposed to take it so I can commiserate with my study buddy!

Darius Jahandarie

7:27 PM

Looks like my friend passed with a 148/160.

Anonymous

Yippee!

Darius Jahandarie

The 12 points were lost in the 読解 category, apparently.

Anonymous

I wonder why it's 160 instead of 180

Darius Jahandarie

That's because I can't type

168/180

Apparently it's curved though: jlpt.jp/about/pdf/scaledscore_j.pdf

7:47 PM

hello again!

trying to grasp the difference (if any) between じ and ぢ

both seem to be ji

Anonymous

Yes, they used to be distinct but merged some centuries ago for most speakers

Anonymous

There are a couple small pockets of Japan where speakers distinguish them still

so i can spell a word with either one?

interchangeably?

Anonymous

Sometimes. Treat じ as the basic one. Use ぢ for a reduplicated voiced mora, like 縮める　＝　ちぢめる

Anonymous

Just like for 続ける　＝　つづける

Anonymous

7:50 PM

Rather than つずける

i cannot read kanji :)

Anonymous

There are words for which either spelling is allowed: 跪く　＝　ひざまずく or ひざまづく

Anonymous

I am giving you the kana so you don't have to

oh

whoops

yes i see that now, i am very slow

Anonymous

This is a matter of spelling

7:51 PM

are you always on here? or just on weekends

Anonymous

So I could just say memorize it for each word you learn

Anonymous

I am here pretty often

how long have you been learning?

Anonymous

A long time, although I'm still not all that great at the language :-)

Anonymous

17 years

7:52 PM

any particular reason?

Anonymous

Not really

just out of love?

Anonymous

When I started learning, I wanted a distraction, something challenging that would take my full attention

Anonymous

That reason is long since gone :-)

:)

i am still trying to slowly read the kana you wrote out loud to myself

つづ

i do not know how to say that

reduplicated voiced mora...

Anonymous

7:54 PM

Umm

it's....not....tsutsu

tsuzu

Anonymous

When you see the same kana but the second one has a ゛ voicing mark

Anonymous

ちぢめる not *ちじめる
つづける not *つずける

Anonymous

It's just a spelling rule

Anonymous

There's no difference in pronunciation there

7:55 PM

but i mean regardless of spelling

do you just pronounce that as it looks? tsuzu?

no special rule?

Anonymous

Yes つづく is like tsuzuku

okay perfect

Anonymous

There are rules for the pronunciation of づ・ず and じ・ぢ

just checking it wasn't something fucked up like "laugh"

Anonymous

But to simplify a little, the pronunciation is either z or dz for both of them

Anonymous

7:56 PM

And people generally don't notice the difference between the z and dz

neat.

thanks.

Anonymous

Just like how in English we think we say the same /p/ sound in spin and pin

don't we???

Anonymous

No, the /p/ in pin is aspirated

Anonymous

To a native speaker of a language where aspirated and non-aspirated p are two different consonants, they sound totally different!

Anonymous

7:57 PM

Because their ears are trained to hear the difference :-)

Anonymous

But we native speakers perceive them as the same sound

i hate that

Anonymous

Likewise, Japanese speakers generally don't notice that there are two ways to pronounce the じ・ぢ sound

it's very in-the-way

Anonymous

You do the one with d at the beginning of words or after ん (I am simplifying again)

7:58 PM

it's exactly why i can't pronounce dame yet

Anonymous

If you'd really like to get the exact pronunciation down, pick up a copy of Timothy Vance's The Sounds of Japanese (2008)

Anonymous

amazon.com/The-Sounds-Japanese-Audio-CD/dp/0521617545

you are a treasure trove

Anonymous

It is a technical book, but very precise

i don't think i'm quite ready for that (don't even know how to say "I" yet)

but it's getting jotted down

Anonymous

8:00 PM

わたし

okay i did know that

lol.

Anonymous

There are lots of ways to say "I", but that's the most basic and neutral one everyone can use :-)

but there are like 7 ways aren't there?

yeah

Anonymous

Japanese has dozens of first person pronouns

:(

Anonymous

8:01 PM

The original わたくし has lots of reduced forms: わたくし・あたくし・わたし・あたし・あたい・あて・わっし・わし・あっし・あし・わたい・わて・わい・わっち

DOZENS?

Anonymous

Then there is ぼく and おれ and archaic pronouns like よ or わらわ

watakushi??

haven't heard that yet.

Anonymous

That is the original word that became a first person pronoun

Anonymous

You'll hear the full version only in rather formal style

Anonymous

8:02 PM

The reduced form わたし is now the most common and neutral form

Anonymous

The versions beginning with /a/ like あたし are mostly considered feminine

Anonymous

Then there are first person pronouns you'll hear in fiction, like せっしゃ (used by stereotypical samurai)

Anonymous

There are a lot of them

oh my

Anonymous

But you don't have to memorize most of them right now

8:03 PM

yes, i know

...thank god...

Anonymous

Haha!

how do you type the kana?

what tool do you use?

Anonymous

I use an input method

yes, which

Anonymous

Every modern OS has a Japanese input method available

8:04 PM

hmm

Anonymous

Are you asking me out of curiosity or looking for a recommendation?

Anonymous

If the latter, you should say what OS you're on

Anonymous

google.co.jp/ime

Anonymous

Lots of people recommend the Google input method!

i use both pc and mac equally, but i can figure it out i think....you're right, probably just switching a setting on

oh my god

i can't read that page lol

Anonymous

8:05 PM

Yes, both Windows and OS X have built in input methods for Japanese you can turn on

Anonymous

You click the blue button, then check the box to automatically send data to Google (if you want to do that), then click the left button "agree and install"

thanks

i suppose by now it's part of the distant past of your self-education, but do you remember there being any kana that were easy for you to memorize? like, they stood out in particular? i ask because for me, no and shi stuck like glue the second i learned them originally and i never forgot them, despite forgetting all the other kana. to me they were immediately as identifiable as any letter from the english alphabet, i didn't have to think about what they were.

did you get that for any characters?

Anonymous

I remember there were a few that I had a harder time memorizing

Anonymous

I made a mnemonic for ゆ. It's "YU are a fish" because ゆ looks like a fish :-)

Anonymous

There are always some things that you just remember with no effort

Anonymous

8:10 PM

Like when I saw the kanji 査 in a kanji dictionary, just flipping through

Anonymous

It stuck in my mind and I never forgot it

what is that one?

Anonymous

But there'll also be other stuff that won't stick, even though it seems like it shouldn't be any harder :-)

tree over .... eye?

Anonymous

It is さ

8:10 PM

chi!

what is chi....you mean like chi energy?

Anonymous

木　＋　且

Anonymous

さ is sa

Anonymous

"Chi" is a Chinese word.

Anonymous

In Japanese, it is called "ki"

oh shoot.

Anonymous

8:11 PM

And "ki" is written 気 in kanji

don't have them perfect yet

Anonymous

気 is very important in Japanese

Anonymous

It is used in an absolutely enormous number of idioms

oh i confused chi and sa because they're so close to each other.

damn.

oh well.

i guess i will learn the utility of this ki you speak of as I go

(Still trying to get google IME to work)

Anonymous

Yes, that's okay, it's easy to make that sort of mistake :-)

Anonymous

8:14 PM

You might not realize this, but we misread letters occasionally even in our own native languages

Anonymous

So don't feel too bad about mixing them up in a language you're learning, it'll get easier :-)

Darius Jahandarie

こんなん笑うしかないでしょ。 http://t.co/ZCFzjml8JI

Tweeted by shomutic on September 25, 2014 at 8:18 PM

Lkie wehn it deonst mttaer if you mvoe aornud all the letters in the middle of the words?

Anonymous

@Aerovistae Hehe, tha's different… :-)

Anonymous

It does matter sometimes, by the way

Anonymous

8:16 PM

But you can do that in Japanese, too!

testing...

Anonymous

mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/people/matt.davis/Cmabrigde

すし

Anonymous

せいこう！！

わたし

Anonymous

8:18 PM

おめでとう〜〜

seikou?

Anonymous

Success!

omedetou?

Anonymous

Congratulations!

hahaha

thanks

at least i can type hiragana now. no idea how to get kanji, but i won't be writing those anytime soon anyway, so.

Anonymous

8:19 PM

By the way

Anonymous

It's pronounced as though it's おめでとお

the doubled-vowels, i don't know how to treat them yet

Anonymous

"ou" is one of the few bits of kana spelling that doesn't always reflect pronunciation

so i don't know how to pronounce とお either

Anonymous

The difference between と and とお is that you say the exact same vowel but do it for about twice the amount of time

Anonymous

8:20 PM

In English, we tend to move our mouths while we say vowels so they start one place and end up in another. In Japanese, long vowels are generally holding your mouth in the same position

Anonymous

So just make an "o" sound and then keep making it :-)

Anonymous

Pretty easy!

Anonymous

ja.forvo.com/word/%E3%81%8A%E3%82%81%E3%81%A7%E3%81%A8%E3%81%86/…

Anonymous

Use your ears!

tooooooooooo

Anonymous

8:24 PM

:-)

there we go, keyboard shortcut set up so i can switch CRAZY FAST 私ｗ

actually i have no idea why that kanji appeared

i typed watashi then hit space...and it changed...hmm

Anonymous

8:38 PM

I use shift-space

Anonymous

I used to have a Japanese keyboard with keys to switch input modes but I don't these days

Anonymous

To type kanji in Japanese

Anonymous

1. Type the kana for the word

Anonymous

(using romaji)

Anonymous

2. Hit space to convert to kanji

8:38 PM

why is janai spelled じやない ?

oh, ja is jiya

Anonymous

Little ya

Anonymous

So it's different from jiya

Anonymous

じゃ not じや

what is little ya?

Anonymous

In Kunrei romanization it would be zya

Anonymous

8:39 PM

And じ would be zi

Anonymous

That is closer to kana

Anonymous

I am about to eat

Anonymous

Your book should explain it

Anonymous

Whatever book you may or may not have :-)

thanks :)

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