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12:14 AM
自分でもそれが撮っているんだけど。 must be some sort of mistake... what a weird sentence.
I can think of a single, very bizarre context in which is it okay, but it's really quite weird.
Oh, wow, not sure how I misread it like that.
12:37 AM
Ah, I think it was 解(わか)る, not 解(と)く, since that would be 解いている
Oh, I see, you already got that :-)
I see your answer now
12:57 AM
I have two friends doing this WaniKani thing now
1:56 AM
The Tanaka corpus (known to be full of errors, mind you) has these three sentences: (1) 「自分でもそれが解っているんだけと。」 = "I know it myself."   (2) 「自分でもそれをやってみなさい。」 = "Do it by yourself."   (3) 「自分でもそれをやってみます。」 = "I'll do it by myself too."  You've supplied sentences 1 and 3 with the translations for 1 and 2. — snailboat ♦ 53 secs ago
I wonder how that happened.
@snailboat is there a phrase that means I appreciate it that sounds lik IOU?
I feel like it says えいおゆ
But that's so vowel-ly.
That is extremely vowelly.
It's phonetically 100% vowel. :-)
I don't know the phrase you're asking about.
Do you have a recording?
ゆ is a vowel?
And I don't know how to record things...
Phonemically the semivowel (glide) y patterns like a consonant
So we say it is a consonant phoneme
Phonetically, as in the actual physical reality of how it's pronounced, it's more or less a glide between two vowel positions
Try saying いう quickly
ゆ is neither a consonant nor a vowel because it is made up of two sounds
The glide y and the vowel u
You're so cool.
You know so much cool stuff.
I found what I was talking about
@snailboat At about 20:15 on this site...
It's also a terrible anime.
2:13 AM
Oh, 礼を言う?
I mean, that wasn't a question :-)
I was close.
How did that phrase come about. You're saying that you're saying something?
2:36 AM
Oh, I don't know
There's a class of speech acts called performative utterances
By saying them, you do them
For example:
Simply saying this word performs the act of welcoming you
So strange.
Performative utterances (or performatives) are defined in the speech acts theory (part of the philosophy of language) as sentences which are not only passively describing a given reality, but they are changing the (social) reality they are describing. J. L. Austin originally assumed that stating something and performing an illocutionary act are mutually exclusive. == History of the term == In his 1955 William James lecture series, which were later published under the title How to Do Things with Words, Austin argued against a positivist philosophical claim that the utterances always "describe" or...
Do most of those evolve from something else, or are some of them actually just originally spun up that way? For instance, etymology online says... wilcuma (n.) "welcome guest," literally "one whose coming suits another's will or wish."
Well, in English we have an interjection thank you, but it comes from the complete sentence I thank you which, though it wasn't an interjection, was a performative utterance
I see.
2:41 AM
I think it's just one of the ways people use language
Yeah I don't know what I was thinking.
But so on the topic of welcome, it's from "one whose coming suits another's will or wish"?
So it wasn't always performative, then? (Not trying to nitpick your example, just curious)
No, it wasn't always performative
What does 礼 mean, again?
I only know bow.
Do you have a dictionary? :-)
Yeah I'm sorry I asked, I realized it was a poor think to ask once I did.
I thought it meant something more honorific than thanks. Hmm.
Ah I was thinking of 礼儀 I think.
Sorry I'm a bit out of it. Thanks @snailboat.
2:51 AM
明鏡 sense two: 感謝の気持ちを表すことばや金品。「礼を言う」「礼状」「謝礼」
That's just sense two, the range of usage 礼 has is wider than that
Is that ことば や 金品
or こと ばや 金品。
ことば や
Word for expressing thanks, and 金品?
I'm so confused.
感謝の気持ちを表す [ 言葉や金品 ]
Thank you.
2:56 AM
Japanese relative clauses tend to attach higher than in English
In English they tend to attach just to the closest word, in Japanese they tend to attach to larger phrases
Just a tendency.
I mean in cases where both high and low attachment are possible.
So you should always try to think if it makes sense for the relative clause to attach to more than just the first word after it
@snailboat Does it say "what kind of phonecalls are made here?"
3:09 AM
@snailboat I'm not sure what you mean by attachment, but I'll stew over it.
3:30 AM
@3to5businessdays Actually, the speaker is asking about the phone calls being received
@Anthony Compare "I kicked the ball" with the relativized "The ball [that I kicked ___ ]"
The relative clause [that I kicked ___ ] attaches to the ball
(Technically it would be better to say it attaches to ball and the determines the entire nominal ball that I kicked, but we can ignore that detail here)
It's as though the ball is filling in the gap in object position.
oh shyt, I completely dropped the ball on that one
We instinctively understand that "I kicked ___" is an incomplete phrase, and the ball is filling in for it.
But sometimes it's not clear what the relative clause is attaching to.
1. "I have a brother and a sister [ that I love ___ ]"
2. "I have a brother and a sister [ that I love ___ ]"
Example 1 is high attachment. If you drew a syntax tree, you would see that it attaches to a node that was higher up in the tree.
Example 2 is low attachment.
Oh wait
> こちらにかかってくるのは
oh, that's "call here"
i see
When both are possible, English tends to prefer low attachment, like example 2, but context determines which way we understand it
I thought に marks location, but it actually marks destination or maybe indirect object
3:37 AM
So if we have pragmatic (contextual) reasons to think #1 makes more sense, we'll instinctively understand it that way
に has many uses
If it were to mark location, probably で would be more suitable?
かかる probably has more uses than に hoho
Oh, かかる has like 45 senses IIRC in 明鏡
You can think of them all as stemming literally or figuratively from the core meaning "hang", although then some of the meanings are pretty far-removed
Oops, it's actually 52 :-) I just checked
Set has 430 senses in the OED.
So it's at least less intimidating than that. :-)
3:42 AM
The English word
you have OED subscription? Or you keep one copy at home?
I have an electronic copy--very few people use physical copies at the moment, and in fact they've stopped printing them. If you're in the US or UK, odds are fairly good that you can access the OED online for free using a library card that's available to you
(You can generally access it from home using your library card if so)
Many schools have institutional access too, of course
I have to settle for this since it's free
It's not worth paying for an individual subscription. You can buy an electronic copy for about the same as one year's access
That is an entirely different dictionary
3:48 AM
But they don't say which one.
It's the Oxford Dictionary of English. If you set it to American English, then it gives you the New Oxford American Dictionary, which is a derivative of the ODE.
I have a copy of that on my 電子辞書! :-)
I rather like it
hmm how many Oxford dictionaries are there?
The main difference being the 電子辞書 version has the Oxford Sentence Dictionary included with a lot of examples.
Quite a few!
Popular among learners is the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary
Oh yeah I have 2 of that I think
They have different covers though
It's really nice how many good dictionaries of English are online
I use onelook.com to search a bunch of dictionaries at once
One of my favorites online is Macmillan
There are a lot of competing learner's dictionaries in English!
I don't think there's anything quite like those for Japanese
I'm very thankful for 大辞林 and 大辞泉 available online
3:53 AM
Monolingual dictionaries of Japanese are generally designed for native speakers
Yes, me too! :-)
Though they are not exactly learner friendly
The explanation is a bit too brief
I like having bilingual dictionaries because they tend to have a lot more examples than monolingual dictionaries
But monolingual dictionaries usually do a better job explaining or defining
明鏡 is my favorite for that :-)
You've been saying that so many times haha
3:55 AM
Haha! I'll try not to be a broken record :-)
I just like dictionaries :-)
I have my own little dictionary collection.
I like well-written documentation, in general
dictionaries is a subset of that
Competent speakers know a lot more about how verbs are used than can be found in dictionaries, unfortunately
They know what ranges of constructions they can appear in, what range of complementation they can take, what collocations they appear with
Good dictionaries tend to approximate that but it's never complete
You know, I like the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English (LDOCE)
It has a big collocations section for the words I've looked up in it :-)
I think the free online version is missing that, sadly
You get what you paid for
4:24 AM
I just rediscovered the furigana option to "hide furigana texts, only show when mousing over kanji"
it's so nice
I wonder if mobile browsers can display furigana...
The iPhone browser can, but it's not enabled on the mobile version of Japanese.SE
So they see 変える【かえる】 or 変{か}える or however people choose to write it
If you go to the full site in the mobile browser you can see furigana, but it kind of squishes the characters to make room, so it looks funny
4:43 AM
@snailboat Thank you!
5:36 AM
uh, refreshing yet displeasing to the eye
1 hour later…
7:01 AM
@Anthony sounds to me as 「まちびとまちまち」
machi bito machi machi
I can't hear 花 either
1 hour later…
8:25 AM
Lizladyninja, United States
32 2
She took back her post
and left
I discouraged her... maybe
by pointing out her mistakes
Maybe I should have responded to her like "keep up the good work!"
Which post?
I have no idea what "a state certified teacher" is
is it some kind of 教員免許?
Yeah, I'm not really sure what she's referring to
It could be that she is certified as a K-12 teacher and is thus qualified to teach Japanese
8:35 AM
Yes, probably
At least in my brief googling I can't find any sort of license specifically for teaching Japanese in America!
I know that some people can be intimidated though when they come here and are eager to help only to find that their answers will undergo a really high level of scrutiny
anyways it's sad to see someone leave
Don't leave us, Nick sensei!
8:42 AM
(; ・`ω・´)
btw... クーラーが要らないくらい涼しいです
8:47 AM
I guess 憧れる isn't transitive huh
The topic about 洋製日本語 is awesome btw
8:52 AM
yeah it's a good one
なるとちゃん has had some awesome answers
「ニック先生に憧れちゃう <3」
I struggle daily to understand what's called 和製英語
8:53 AM
I've noticed less literate people use it extremely widely
@Choko という人がいてくれたらのにな~
well... harakiri is not meaningless at least. There is a difference between harakiri and seppuku.
struggle to understand it in what way?
when my co-workers write an email and 1/5 of it consists of katakana of unclear origin...
I have no idea what they are trying to say :)
8:55 AM
for example リスケ
what is it? Something about risk? No, it means "re-schedule"
i still regularly finding myself picking up on nuances of seemingly "English" words that have taken on different meanings in Japanese
like words that are close enough that you might mistake it for being the same
but then find out later that it's used differently
a recent example being トラブル
yep, some of them went wild ways. And some are not English at all even if they look like originated there.
what are nuances of トラブル?
never really thought about this word second time
Lately I've heard it used most often with problems with other people
especially over the internet
well, true. But at work we often use it in the same meaning as English - like something went wrong technically.
No one speaks English here.
i'm sure there's plenty of overlap with normal English use
9:00 AM
some day on nomikai have to tell them that trouble actually means a cloud. That will be surprise!
but these kinds of experiences nevertheless remind me that even words that seem like they should map 1-to-1 from English to Japanese still have their differences
you are right. This is how words of this kind work - they rarely mean same thing as they were supposed to originally.
in my own language we have many words of Finnish and German origin and they mean slightly different stuff which gets very funny sometimes.
what language is that?
neat! though a language I know nothing about
9:04 AM
very small language - i guess not more than 2 million speakers worldwide
ok, native speakers. There are many non-native too.
ラトビア へ~ 通貨はユーロ?
is latvia in NATO as well?
yes. google says yes.
yep. Luckily ;)
gotta love geopolitics
9:09 AM
you would enjoy latvian history then :D
@Choko 夜ご飯何にしましょうか
I haven't studied European history since high school, but that was a mess all around
exactly. And latvian history is a mess even by European standards.
9:11 AM
opening up the history of latvia wiki page
one funny fact from this history is that Riga which is now Latvian capital was the largest city of Sweden at some moment
and still uses a lot of Swedish royal symbolism all around while it is completely not connected in any ways but historically
kind of like canadians and australians using symbols of the british monarchy
i'd guess, anyway.
pretty much similar
are you also from Kyoto @ssb?
I studied for a year in Kyoto, but I live in Kyushu now
9:18 AM
@ssb wow! Where in Kyushu? Sorry for asking too much, but I have a particular interest to Kyushu :)
where Kumamon comes from
9:23 AM
i met kumamon
at a matsuri
9:25 AM
btw, there is an opinion that Funasshii is a parody on all the mascots around.
i thought Kumamon was newer
Kumamon debuted in 2011
ahh, 2010
looks like funasshi is 2011
not a big difference anyway
one of my favourite phrases - お腹凹凹
9:44 AM
sounds medically serious
to me it sounds somewhat polynesian - onaka bokoboko somewhat resembles Samoan pukupuku which means "book"
10:35 AM
@ssb Australia and Canada have the same person acting as monarh as the UK but the monarchies themselves are separate and independent with their own symbols such as the coat of arms for Australia. The only British symbol I can think of, not that I am expert, that remains in Australia is in the flag (which is the flag of the UK not the Queen)
11:06 AM
Interesting. Got +2 for reputation with "User was removed" notice.
11:28 AM
Probably means a downvote was retracted
12:00 PM
Ouch. I got -153...
I guess Sawa's account was deleted.
Apparently I lost some too
Quote: "This removal occurs whenever a user is deleted, unless that user had a very high reputation score. Because high-reputation users have usually cast a great many votes, removing all of them could be that much more disruptive to other users. In such cases, the staff use a special deletion that preserves the votes, resulting in no reputation change for those who had been voted on by that user."
Seeing that Sawa had the #1 reputation, I wonder why the special deletion mentioned here was not used.
It probably means "very high" relative to the entire SE population
Oh well. Not a big deal, I guess.
12:04 PM
Maybe only a percentage of votes was removed...?
I think his account had about 800 upvotes, that is 8000 reputation points. Maybe not enough to be called "a great many votes"?
I'd assume that "many" means users with like ~100k reputation
@Rilakkuma I also got exactly +2 with "User was removed".
@AndrewGrimm That means that, assuming all votes were reversed, sawa downvoted exactly one of your questions/answers... Not quite what you expected?
That's strange. My reputation a couple of days ago was 4769 (I think), now it's 4768, even though 4769 + 2 = 4771.
@Earthliŋ that'd mean he downvoted far more questions than upvoted, because upvoted questions give you +5, and downvoted questions give you -2.
12:22 PM
So 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 = 2?
If he upvotes / downvotes in a 2:5 ratio, I don't think that'd be enough to call him a troll (at least not for his voting behaviour).
Well, you posted comments from him to this site... I don't think I'll really understand what was going on there.
@Earthliŋ do you regard that as an invasion of his privacy?
I was assuming he told you to post here, no?
@Earthliŋ are you being sarcastic or serious?
12:29 PM
I'm being serious.
@Earthliŋ no, he didn't tell me to post them here.
I just saw that you posted comments of the sort "this is what sawa sensei said: ..."
At that point I assumed that you were acquainted either as real world friends or at least on the internet, so I was confused when you came here to post your comments from other SE sites telling sawa to stay away from you and assuming that his "trolling" behaviour was targeting you.
@Earthliŋ I'm not sure which comments you're referring to, so I can't explain it.
Comments after @DariusJahandarie edited one of sawa's posts to change romanization... Apparently sawa said that Darius shouldn't edit stuff he knows nothing about and you posted this comment on the answer. I was assuming that sawa had told you to post this comment.
@Earthliŋ oh, that! I forgot about that.
Yes, he asked me to do that.
12:39 PM
Right. I don't understand how that goes together with you feeling targeted by his "trolling" behaviour.
@Earthliŋ In that if I was being trolled by him, I'd be unlikely to co-operate with his request?
Well, truth be told, I know nothing about "trolling" on the internet... Anyway, I have to leave now.
@Earthliŋ Ok, see you!
1:32 PM
@AndrewGrimm ええとね、今、私、自分のプロフページから、自分の回答のview moreを開いて、質問をクリックしたら、例えば「2点」の回答をクリックして、点数「2」の数字をクリックしたら、最初「2」 なのに、クリック後は「+3/0」って表示される
I don't really know how the numbers work
I know that when this happens it does a "recalculation" which could fix discrepancies from a long time ago
The numbers were accurate for me at least
But it doesn't show me any details that other users can't see
I don't know why the community team decided not to preserve the account's votes
@Tim Although you can't see it, the serial down voting from yesterday should be reversed (the recalculation when sawa left would have been 10 points lower, so even though it looks like all that happened was you lost -3 rep, it should be accounted for in the total)
1:37 PM
Oh, that's confusing!
I lost 54 reputation
@snailboat Oh, no!
1:48 PM
Hehe, it's only reputation :-)
I lost 202。。。
Oh, no!
21 up and 4 down, maybe?
Because the questions were deleted?
I didn't receive many upvotes from the user who was deleted, so I didn't lose as many points
Maybe it's possible to get the community team to restore the reputation. It seems like an oversight
Q: Why is "UFO" pronounced as if it were a word?

Andrew GrimmIn English, "UFO" (Unidentified flying object) is generally pronounced with each letter being pronounced. By contrast, I've read in my textbook that in Japanese, "UFO" is pronounced "ユーフォー". Is there any particular reason for the difference in pronunciation, such as one of the letters being har...

I checked a bunch of English dictionaries just now and several of them listed a two-syllable pronunciation in addition to the three-syllable one
2:00 PM
I think I've heard it being pronounced as both "U-F-O" and "U4" in English.
I think there's a chance that English speakers pronounce it as two syllables when they think it's three, compressing the middle vowel without realizing
I mean, sometimes, not always
@snailboat Interesting! I will keep that in mind and listen carefully the next time I watch any alien things. :-)
My intuition tells me it's three syllables, but if I pronounce it as two in a sentence it sounds pretty normal :-)
@Choko T_T
@snailboat Like how Americans pronounce "Squirrel" and "Milk" differently to British English?
@AndrewGrimm Dictionaries list it as a BrE pronunciation as well
Well, the BrE pronunciation of course has a different final diphthong
I don't think I've ever noticed a two-syllable pronunciation before.
2:20 PM
@snailboat Perhaps it's because you don't really think of it as syllables. :-)
Strange. I typed think as thing a few times this week.
I think that it's possible the spelling UFO has a strong influence on how I think about it
Spelling can have a surprisingly strong influence on how people think about pronunciation
To the point where some native speakers of English think there is just one "th" sound :-)
2:46 PM
3:41 PM
@Choko Yes, I think so. The chat is "global" across all SE sites.
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