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1:34 AM
@Tim If you'll recall the PDF I linked you to about raising, the slides put together by Horn
A dissertation by the same author on the same subject, in rather more detail, is available online: vsarpj.orinst.ox.ac.uk/files/horn.dissertation.pdf
Apparently I'd downloaded this before and forgotten :-)
 
Tim
2:00 AM
@snailboat Thank you very much. I am going to add one of these to my "answer" later.
 
It's a lot to read, and I haven't had a chance to go through it yet
I've been reading a lot about 〜ている
Several different sources, including the thesis that Darius pointed me to
I linked to one source earlier (books.google.com/books?id=0eprLex8sr0C&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82), which is 中上級を教える人のための日本語文法ハンドブック p.82
Different people have had different theories over time
In Western linguistics, Vendler came up with four classes of verbs (state, activity, accomplishment, achievement), based on whether they're 1. static OR dynamic, 2. punctual OR durative, 3. telic OR atelic
Kindaichi came up with his own classification for verbs based on how they behave with 〜ている, and he ignored telic/atelic
So he only had two contrasts: 1. state OR dynamic, 2. punctual OR durative. That would give three groups (state, achievement, activity) in Vendler's terminology, though I prefer the terminology "state, punctual, durative", since I think the meaning is more obvious
Kindaichi came up with four groups of verbs anyway, because he found that a very few verbs (そびえる and 似ている for example) always appear with 〜ている, and he decided to put these into a separate group
But later linguists got rid of his "fourth group"
Saying that 似る for example means "come to resemble"
And so it's almost always 似ている because "resemble" is when that has already happened
So it's really a punctual verb
So based on that, we've got three kinds of verbs: static, punctual, durative
Static → Doesn't appear with 〜ている
Durative → Has duration, appears with 〜ている with a continuous / progressive meaning
Punctual → Has no duration, appears with 〜ている with a resultative meaning
So based on that, 〜ている has two basic meanings, either progressive or resultative, depending on the type of verb
But then there are some extra meanings of 〜ている that both punctual AND durative verbs can have
Sugita calls these "habitual" and "experiential"
> マリは毎日このプールで泳いでいる "Mari swims in this pool every day" (Habitual)
These interpretations typically appear with 「毎〜」「いつも」「ときどき」 and such
The experiential is a little more complicated--the link I mentioned earlier (books.google.com/books?id=0eprLex8sr0C&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82) explains in some detail
> マリは今までに3回この川で泳いでいる "Mari has swum in this pool three times up to now" (Experiential)
So dividing it up this way, there are four meanings 〜ている can have (although you can subdivide it further)
Either progressive or resultative, depending on the kind of verb; and then, in appropriate contexts, habitual and experiential are also possible (for either kind of verb)
It seems like what all four have in common is a focus on the current moment
(Or the "reference time", which is generally speaker time but can be shifted to other times depending on the sentence)
That is, with an durative verb it makes sense to say 〜ている meaning "is still going" because it can take time
With a punctual verb, 〜ている means "is now in the state resulting from X", because the other meaning isn't possible
And it's really focused on the state now, not the event in the past--it's technically possible to have the resultative meaning without the event in the past ever taking place (扉が閉まっている can mean "the door is closed" even if it's never been open before)
So although these are often called "change-of-state verbs", the idea that there's a change of state in the past is only an implication, not actually part of the meaning
With an experiential meaning, the focus is again on the present--at this time, the experience or history expressed by the verb is true
> この橋は5年前から壊れている。 (resultative, the bridge was broken 5 years ago and is still in the resulting state)
> この橋は5年前に壊れている。だから、大きな地震が来たら心配だ。 (experiential, the bridge is in the state of having been broken before)
Some people use a more general term than "habitual", instead saying "iterative"
Martin uses the term "iterative", pointing out that it can be subdivided into several meanings:
1. 「家を出ている」 Repetitive with a single agent 'He leaves the house regularly'
2. 「家を出ている」 Repetitive with more than one agent acting repeatedly 'They leave the house regularly'
3. 「家を出ている」 Repetitive with more than one agent acting once 'They leave the house, one after another'
In Japanese, these meanings can be called 進行中 ("progressive" = ongoing) 結果残存 ("resultative" = result is still in effect), 習慣 ("habitual"), 経験 ("experiential"); state verbs can be called 状態動詞, punctual verbs 瞬間動詞, and durative verbs 継続動詞
In some writings, 習慣 ("habitual") is replaced with 反復 ("iterative")
経験 is sometimes divided into 経験・経歴
It's also worth noting that most static verbs are potential forms, and these can be converted into punctual verbs by using them with 〜ている
And 知る is special in that 知っている typically alternates with 知らない (so it might be called half-punctual)
Anyway, that's about what I've found out about 〜ている so far
 
3:20 AM
This sentence seems grammatically interesting to me:
> 亡くなる前、一時的にではあるが、啓子はふっと意識の戻ったことがあった。
The phrase 「一時的にではあるが」
Martin suggests that it be interpreted as ellipsis before で
Well, he talks about examples like that one, I mean. He doesn't comment on this sentence specifically
 
 
1 hour later…
4:59 AM
@snailboat ありがとうございます!
 
@DamkerngT. おはよう!
 
@WendiKidd Hello! こんにちは!
@snailboat おはよう!
(I just used ohayou at the last possible minute of my local time!)
 
Oh, that's too bad
 
コメントで質問されてるけど、返事ができないねえ
 
5:05 AM
@DamkerngT. Hehe! こんにちは!
 
おげんきですか?
 
@virmaior 「返事待ち」を「返事街」と変換する人が結構いるようです。typoの場合と、わざと(ふざけて?)そう書いている場合があるようです。
(タグ付しても、お知らせが行かないんだろうなあ)
「参加待ち」を「参加街」と書いたのは、変換を間違えたのか、冗談でわざとそう書いたのか、分かりませんが、「ゆり子さんの参加を待つ」「ゆり子さんが参加するなら自分も‌​参加する」という意味かな?と思います。
 
5:20 AM
Is this sentence weird? (it's from an anime)
> あんたの話は よく分からん。
It was translated into something roughly means "I don't know what you're talking about."
 
@DamkerngT. No, it's perfectly natural
 
@Choko Thank you!
 
It's colloquial, and rather impolite
@DamkerngT. いえいえ
 
I was curious because Google Translate produced something nonsense from that phrase. (*"The story of Anta Dunno well.")
 
あはは
It would be like あなたの話はよく分かりません。in the polite form
 
5:29 AM
Only a few changes make the difference!
(Google Translate recognizes this polite form. I just tested it. :)
 
5:44 AM
@DamkerngT. はい、元気です^^ Damkerngさんは?
 
げんきです!
(I like the sound of です! :)
 
ssb
5:56 AM
Humidity is killing me slowly
I can feel myself drowning with every breath
 
@DamkerngT. Good, because it's a pretty common word! ;-)
@ssb Oh, no!!
Do you still have that lung problem, whatever it was? (Was it bronchitis?)
 
ssb
My lungs are OK
It's my sinuses that hate me
I've been on antibiotics for 4 weeks now
I tried to make another appointment to see the doctor today but they can't until tomorrow!!
 
6:35 AM
Ohh, sinuses. My sinuses hate me a lot of the time, too :-(
 
@ssb Get well soon!
 
ssb
Thanks!
I feel mostly OK now, but apparently there's still lingering bacteria
 
 
2 hours later…
8:12 AM
Look at what I just found! youtube.com/watch?v=glwltt77esw
 
 
1 hour later…
9:31 AM
@ssb Do you live in Japan?
profile says yes
over here in kantou... it honestly hasn't been as bad as I was expecting
 
ssb
Kyushu
The rain isn't too bad but every day I'm dying from muggy humidity
They don't turn on the air conditioning
 
ouch
I've been avoiding the computer lab because the AC is inadequate there
 
ssb
Apparently it's more important to martyr yourself to save a little electricity than it is to be comfortable enough to do work
 
you have apparently not adopted enough bushido spirit
 
 
2 hours later…
11:18 AM
武士道w
 
 
2 hours later…
ssb
1:08 PM
Well guys it's happening
Manga has reached the finish line: kadokawa.co.jp/ruby/special/1108.php
 
 
3 hours later…
4:27 PM
ついに三日前までこの色でしたが
しょっちゅうこの色に変わって、また黄色に戻ったりして、
昨日はこの色になって、また今日は茶色に戻っています
メルアドも変えていないそうなんですが、アバターの色がしょっちゅう変わるんです
もしかして、ハッキングされてるとかいう可能性はありませんか?
アバターは、メルアドを変える以外に、何をすれば変わるんでしょうか。
 
 
2 hours later…
6:17 PM
Oh, it changes if your IP changes, I think.
 
 
1 hour later…
7:39 PM
@Tim This time I did my best to write an answer, although I think your question is on a difficult topic :-)
 
 
3 hours later…
11:04 PM
@snailboat Nice summary!
 
Tim
11:30 PM
@snailboat This is great, thank you. I thought the best I could get would be probably confirmation that would apply to this verb. You have provided a means to make this assessment for other verbs too with academic support.
And Darius seems to have endorsed you answer too. Thanks.
@snailboat Yes something like that - I have same experience which I put down to logging off and then logging on at another location.
 

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