Election 2016!

Mew

10:00 AM

The USA will never let a communist china become a superpower

Sure China's economy is large, but their economy per head is still very low

Their citizens are too poor

Magisch

It's tempting to think we're special, but we're really not

Fatalize

China isn't communist

Magisch

Wealth and power just shift slowly

Mew

@Fatalize, China is run by a communist government

Fatalize

@Mew No they're not. The only communist thing about China is the official name of the country. Just like how North Korea has "Democratic" in their full name. Doesn't mean it is.

Or you have an american definition of communism which is "everything that is to the left of our far-far-right parties"

Mew

10:02 AM

@Fatalize, China is communist though

What about them isn't?

Magisch

@Mew communism mandates communal ownership. China has private ownership

By that alone it already isn't

Mew

So why do they call themselves communist?

Fatalize

Well for one thing you said yourself that a lot of their citizens are poor while others are super rich

in communism everyone has the same wealth

Mew

So why do they say they are communist if they're not

Magisch

@Mew buzzwords are nice and used often to mask what you're really doing or garner support

Like North Korea calls itself the "Democratic People's Republic of North Korea"

Fatalize

10:04 AM

even though you can't even vote

Magisch

Of course there is nothing democratic or people's about that, its all window dressing

Mew

So how does China compare to the USA

are they the same?

Magisch

China has a (currently) more authoritarian government structure

And more censorship

and a lower standard of living, but they're catching up quick.

Mew

And do you think a country under that govnerment system will overtake the free West?

Fatalize

Do you think they won't evolve in the next years?

Mew

10:05 AM

Or do you think they will need to become more like the West in order to do so?

Fatalize

Look at China 50 yaers ago and now

Kaz

@Magisch "Democratic People's Republic of Korea". Officially, they say they still own South Korea.

Fatalize

now imagine what China will be in 50 years

Mew

I see China more like the USA in 50- yeras

Magisch

democracy and free markets aren't exclusive to western culture

Mew

10:06 AM

with less censorship

and more democratic

Magisch

remind yourself that 50 years ago a lot of the west was fascist

Mew

Yes

Magisch

governments change all the time and change quickly

Fatalize

humm... no?

Magisch

america used to be an outright oligarchy.

Fatalize

10:06 AM

70+ years yes

Mew

exactly

so countries become less authoratarian over time

so in order for China to succeed, they must become more like the USA

Fatalize

no

Mew

thus when China reaches the living stanrds of the west, they will pretty much be like the West is now

Magisch

They could also do something entirely different which is even better

Mew

but they won't

Magisch

10:07 AM

USA == Free and democratic is a fallacy

Mew

Because only the Western way works

Magisch

It's not the western way though

Mew

USA isn't free, but like you said, it's gotten better over time

It was previously an oligardchy

and now it is at least democractic

while not perfect, it's gotten better

Magisch

It's a way the west is currently adopting and thats actually going out of style quickly when you look at all the authoritarians (like trump) rising to power in recent years.

Mew

Trump was democratically elected

HE is just a man with ideas, he's not authoratarian

Magisch

10:09 AM

So was hitler

Mew

Trump was to build a wall, not invade other countries

Hilary wanted to invade

Fatalize

Trump received less votes than Clinton, but your obsolete elections system means he's elected anyway

Magisch

Sorry for dropping the godwin's bomb here, but authoritarians can come to power by democratic election

erdogan and orban were also demoractically elected.

Mew

Yes but I don't see that america is becoming more authoratarian over time

they are becoming more democratic

Magisch

Let's see what the next 4 years will look like

Kaz

10:10 AM

@Fatalize "Obsolete" is a strong word. The system did what it was designed to do. In a contentiously close race, give the presidency to the candidate with the broader base of support across the whole country.

Magisch

With all the petty gerrymandering and the electoral college and the gridlock and the fillibustering america is already pretty bad at basic democracy

Mew

exactly Kaz

Fatalize

@Kaz You system is hundreds of years old, and it literally does not give presidency to the broader base since less people voted for him

Magisch

American "democracy" is only one on paper, tbh.

Kaz

@Fatalize By "Broader Base" I don't mean more votes overall. I mean more votes spread more evenly across all the states, rather than concentrated in a few large ones.

Magisch

10:12 AM

Effectively its still a pretty rigid oligarchy

Fatalize

For one thing your system basically enforces in practice that there are only two people you can vote for

which is already a joke

@Kaz Why should farmers lost in the middle of nowhere have a vote that counts more than someone in NYC?

Magisch

Trump wasn't the establishment favorite, clearly, but he still needs the establishment and will be reigned in

Mew

@Fatalize, because the USA a collection of states

Kaz

@Fatalize Precisely to counterbalance the fact that the people, money and power is highly concentrated in large, urban, conglomerates.

Magisch

For one his wall wont pass without some serious help by the congress and senate

Mew

10:13 AM

Not one homogenous group of people

So it doesn't make sense for one of the more populare states to have power over the less popualr states

Fatalize

Lol here we go again with this homogeneous thing

Magisch

@Kaz What makes you think a New Yorker's vote should count less then a farmer's somewhere out back?

Mew

That's like saying China should rule the world because they have the most people

Each group needs a representative

Kaz

A president has to govern *the whole country* and so the system is designed to ensure that they have to win support across the whole country.

Magisch

If 80% of the people are in urban centers, then the urban centers have 80% of the power. Simple.

Kaz

10:14 AM

@Magisch I'm not saying it *should* just saying that it does, and trying to explain the rationale behind why the system was designed that way.

Magisch

Sometimes shafting a region for the greater good is very necessary

Mew

But who determines greater good?

Greater good is for all regions

Magisch

The people

Mew

not just for the most popular regions

And the people aren't demanding a new voting system

Magisch

Well yeah

actually it should

Fatalize

10:15 AM

Yes they are

Magisch

1 person = 1 vote = 1 of N parts of influence

pretty basic and pretty fair. Anything that deviates from that is diluting democracy for partisan and biased interests.

Mew

No, 1 electorate = 1 vote

Each electorate should have 1 vote

Magisch

nah

Mew

and poeple in the electorate vote on where that electorate vote goes

Magisch

I think that every single person counts equally

If that means rural areas have no say, then so be it

Mew

10:17 AM

Well then this would cause the USA to split

Kaz

@Magisch Except you can't run a country of 350M people on direct democracy.

Mew

because some states won't be represented politically anymore

Magisch

@Kaz Maybe that country should split some then and get to a size where that works

Mew

Take Australia, the state WA generates most of the money, yet by no means has the most population

If votes were based on population only, WA would probably split from the rest of Aus

which is bad for Aus

so as a concession, the majority of Aus allows an electrate based voting system

for the greater good

Fatalize

and then they elected Tony Abbott

what a success

Mew

10:18 AM

this allows the state of WA to have their say in the country despite their lower population

who is Terry Abbott?

Magisch

There is no greater good in that, only favoritism

Mew

not favouritism, it is about each area having a representitive

Magisch

If a state has 0,1% of a countries population, everything but giving it 0,1% of the say is blatantly unfair

Mew

we live in a world that is seperated by geography

geography plays an important role in world politicis

each geographic area needs it's own representation

Kaz

@Magisch So your solution is to break up the USA? The last time that happened there was a Civil War.

Magisch

10:21 AM

@Kaz Last time It was unamicably though

If you did it properly, it could work

Kaz

@Magisch Depends on the system you want to design. Democracy is just a way to convert popular will into governance. *how* you do that is a matter of much debate and there is no automatic "right " system

Mew

Yes that is correct KAz

Each person votes for a president of their electorate

The president is then the leader of all these mini presidents

Magisch

@Kaz Basic human decency says that everyone should have the same say in how they're governed

Mew

And they do

everyone has the same say in their electorate

to vote in their representative

Magisch

No, for anyone that governs them

If a president governs me, I need to have exactly the same influence on his choice then anyone else that has any

No electorates, no nothing

Mew

10:23 AM

wrong

Magisch

We'll just have to disagree there

Mew

So if we had a world governemtn, china would have most power for instance, despite the complete culture difference between East and West

it makes more sense for each country to vote a representative

like the UN

since each country has their unique issues and culture

Why would you want the china leader to represent the USA issues?

doesn't make sense

Magisch

I wouldn't do a one world government

Fatalize

Where you are mistaken is in assuming that there is as much difference between texas and California as there is between the USA and China

Mew

of course, because your system won't even allow the USA to stand as a single country

your system is good at the local level only because any large causes division and countries to split

And guess what your system is employed at the local levell, through the electorate systemn

There is a reason things are the way they are

Fatalize

10:26 AM

Americans always seem to brag about "Uhh muh diversity! so diverse! so different in each states!" when 1) the differences are negligeable and 2) other countries have those same differences and 3) a lot of countries are way more diverse than the USA

Kaz

@Magisch Depends. Does the same human decency say that minorities should be protected against the tyranny of the majoirty?

Magisch

@Kaz To the extent of their inalienable rights

Then again, a countries constitution should be doing the job of ruling out and blocking leaders that would violate that

Mew

There are riots in USA now

looks like the middle east or something

Fatalize

manifesting is not riots...

Mew

manifesting?

what's that?

but check this out:

THE PURGE! Riots In The USA After Donald Trump Win! (Compilation)

►

Fatalize

10:37 AM

read the first comment

First clip isn't even from the US

Mew

can u believe them tho

protesting a democratic election

Fatalize

I thought the USA was the land of free speech?

Mew

yeah and I'm not against free speech

just suprised at some people's lack of respect for the result the country voted for

just like brexit

Fatalize

more people voted for Clinton than Trump

so "the country voted for" is bullshit

ergo protests

Mew

lol

Kaz

10:50 AM

@Fatalize Can we agree that 47.50% : 47.65% is close enough that whoever won, half the country would have had legitimate grievances

Fatalize

Well sure

but I don't think Mew would complain if Trump supporters would protest in the streets had Clinton won

strangely

Mew

I would

But I don't see it happening

Trump was the underdog, people didn't expect him to win

Kaz

@Mew Oh, I totally see riots happening either way.

Mew

really

Kaz

The both of them are such divisive figures.

Mew

10:51 AM

ok I"m not from USA so i dunno

idiots?

Kaz

That out of 60 Million people, you'll easily find enough to protest either side.

Mew

true kaz

and yes I would be annoyed either way

because i think the result should be respected

clearly USA wants Trump to be president

so Hilary supports need to respect the decision that Trump is their leader

and now work together to support each other and Trump

Fatalize

"clearly" "47.50% : 47.65% "

lol

I don't think you know what clearly means

Mew

I said USA

Fatalize

not to mention almost half of people didn't even vote

Mew

10:53 AM

Most states in the USA support Trump

Thus USA supports Trump

Fatalize

most of those states are irrelevant

Mew

If they don't vote it means they are happy for the rest of the people to decide

You can't complain if you don't vote that's silly

irrelevant? they are states with human beings. It is because of statements like that that require the voting system to be what it is

Kaz

@Mew Eh. Half of the USA supports Trump over Hillary. The other half supports Hillary over Trump.

Mew

If it was pure majority rule these "irrelvant" states would be abandomed and USA would suffer for it

Kaz

Ignoring the actual people involved is not a way to fix the divisions

ArtOfCode

10:55 AM

@Fatalize Half of the population of the USA voted for Trump, there or thereabouts. 60 million people. It's quite disrespectful to stereotype all of those people. You're entitled to your opinions, but please don't take the attitude that your opinion is right and therefore everyone else is wrong or an idiot or irrelevant.

Kaz

@ArtOfCode (Actually 60 Million for each side. 59.6M | 59.8M)

ArtOfCode

ta

I just halved the population :)

Magisch

11:45 AM

@ArtOfCode That attitude is poisoning discourse everywhere

You should go on reddit sometime

Kaz

Does anyone know why Michigan/Arizona haven't got *Official* results yet?

ArtOfCode

I'm avoiding reddit like the plague currently. I'm usually there quite a lot.

Mew

@Kaz, they're still in the process of rigging those ones

Magisch

@ArtOfCode Although its hilarious how bad the CTR astroturfing in /r/politics was

Kaz

SE chat is tense enough. I don't want to imagine what Reddit is doing.

@Magisch CTR?

Magisch

11:47 AM

@Kaz "Correct the Record"

Hillary Clinton coordinating Super PAC (Legal since it was digital-only)

Kaz

@Magisch Ah. Never heard of it.

Magisch

Aimed to provide activists with the tools to effectively engage and confront people posting "incorrect" or "unfair" things about hillary on social media

Not that bad an idea on paper

In practice they auto-downvoted and flagged everything anti hillary on reddit (especially on /r/politics) for the election

Part of why reddit is so shellshocked now they suppressed most dissent

Kaz

@Magisch I'm guessing all the media comment sections as well. These days, I wouldn't be surprised if they're 90% paid supporters for either side.

@Magisch Country in a microcosm right there ^^

Magisch

It was so obvious too

I said something against hillary in a reddit thread once, can't even remember what it was now but it was pretty mellow, and within less then 5 minutes the comment had 15 downvotes and 3 nearly identical what-felt-like-copy-pasted "retorts" from new site members.

Maybe its just the program paranoia software devs develop, but it felt automated to me.

Erik the Golfer

so we have a room for trump...

Kaz

11:54 AM

@Magisch Probably is (mostly) automated these days.

Magisch

@EriktheGolfer Really? where?

Mew

TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP!

Magisch

sigh

Erik the Golfer

@Magisch i meant that trump winning is so ironic... im eating right now so i cant type messages well.

Mew

All you non-americans out there watch out. America is coming back to power!

Magisch

11:56 AM

Meh

Erik the Golfer

american?

Mew

yeah

Trump is going to make America great again

not just USA

Erik the Golfer

no im greek living in the bad example of trump (greece)

> not just USA

Mew

yeah

America will be great again

Erik the Golfer

please, do not put your opinion over others'. you know someone might be for hillary right?

Mew

11:58 AM

sorry

I didn't know

I do feel sorry for HIlary and her supporters

she put up a good fight

ArtOfCode

1 hour ago, by ArtOfCode

@Fatalize Half of the population of the USA voted for Trump, there or thereabouts. 60 million people. It's quite disrespectful to stereotype all of those people. You're entitled to your opinions, but please don't take the attitude that your opinion is right and therefore everyone else is wrong or an idiot or irrelevant.

Replace "Trump" with "Hillary" for this case

Erik the Golfer

The states map isn't really a proof to say "80% of the people in US voted for Trump". It's "80% of the states in US have a vote majority for Trump". You don't know if 50.0000000000001% voted for Trump, while the other 49.9999999999999% voted for Hillary in a specific state.

Mew

In tennis, Federer could win more points than Djokavic and still lose the whole match

But we still acknowledge Dkjoavic won fair and square

In the same way, the make up of each state doesn't matter just like the make up of points in each tennis game doens't matter

TRUMP won fair and square

Erik the Golfer

TRUMP won fair and square, but I was talking about another thing here.

Mew

NO TRUMP WON

TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP!

ArtOfCode

12:07 PM

@Mew please have a little respect for people who may not feel the same as you.

Mew

Sorry

Erik the Golfer

@Mew And that's what I call pushing others' opinions away. Someone might have an opinion like "TRUMP won because he paid in money not because of votes", or even "Hillary just didn't have enough to pay so TRUMP got votes".

Mew

I don't get it

Erik the Golfer

I meant that someone might have a different opinion about TRUMP's winning than you, so please do not push at them. Let everyone have their own opinions, except if something is proven wrong. No opinion is proven right at the moment, because no voter said who they voted for.

ArtOfCode

It was roughly 50-50 either way in popular votes

Erik the Golfer

12:11 PM

^^ And someone may not even want to share their opinion. You never know personal lives of other people, unless you have a close (as in atoms forming a bond) relationship with then.

@ArtOfCode Well, roughly... the election is done though, why don't we just freeze this room?

Like, not talking at all for 14 days.

ArtOfCode

I think the idea is to leave this around so that people who want to talk about the election can come here and not force political discussions on anyone who doesn't want to be part of them.

2

Erik the Golfer

That's also a good idea. But, freezing is unavoidable if no two people talk for 14 days.

Mew

But even in this room people don't want political discussion forced on them it seems

Erik the Golfer

Why should you force a discussion at all without a reasonable reason? Freedom must work.

ArtOfCode

@EriktheGolfer and if that happens, then it would appear that nobody wants to discuss, and it's okay to freeze the room. If it's necessary, mods can unfreeze it again.

@Mew If people here don't want to be part of political discussion, they can leave. This is a very clearly political room.

2

Erik the Golfer

12:21 PM

^ And I thought that was implied.

mojimonster

12:42 PM

lol nope I'm outie

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