@yEz @msh210 might enjoy working on that, so I'll ping him.

@DoubleAA Thanks.

@yEz "cry 'trader!'"

(Kidding. For those of you who don't know, trader and traitor are pronounced the same in North America.)

@yEz Seriously -- I have no idea what the word means in that context or where the phrase comes from. The only meaning I know for תגר is "merchant" (though Morfix mentions also "be poured/dribbled"). See also balashon.com/2007/02/kategor.html

... He cites Ps. 39:11 and Dt. 2:24. On Ps. there, ibn Ezra and Machberes M'nachem (as cited by Rashi) say the word there is from the root יגר ("fear") and Rashi says it's from the root גרה, but Radak and M'tzudas Tziyon seem to say it's from the root תגר ("fight").

... (There are also other words here and there (at least one in 2Chron, which I've put away now, and Dt 2:5) that look like they have the root תגר.)

... Hebrew Wiktionary vowelizes it תִּגָּר (tigar) and claims it means "dispute, fight, opposition", but cites no source for any of its content in the entry.

... That's all I've got at the moment, though I'm curious. In any event, if I had to translate it and wanted to be literalish, I might use "cry out in opposition/objection/protest".

To clarify this point- if it's hutra it's permissible to shecht? @Shokhet

@Scimonster

and see the Shu"t Harashba: ולי נראה שהכל תלוי במחלוקת אם נאמר שבת דחויה או נאמר שבת הותרה אצל חולה. אם נאמר שבת הותרה אצל חולה שוחטין לו שלא אסרה תורה מלאכת שבת אצל חולה. ושוחטין לחולה בשבת כדרך ששוחטין אנו לעצמנו... אבל למ"ד דחויה היא מאכילין לו הנבילה שהוא צריך לאכול ואין אנו עוברין לשחוט לו. שבמקום שיש לו בשר לאכול לא נעבור אנו ולא נדחה את השבת.

וכמדומה שהלכה כמאן דאמר שבת דחויה היא ולא הותרה. מכל מקום כל שאין שם נבילה אמרינן לגוי לשחוט כיון שהיא דחויה אצלו. ותדע לך שהרי שנינו בברייתא אין עושין דברים הללו לא על ידי גוים ולא על ידי קטנים אלא על ידי גדולי ישראל" (שו"ת ח"א, תרפט)

@Shokhet see mekoros above

this site puts it all together very nicely and clearly: ybm.org.il/hebrew/LessonArticle.aspx?item=1317

here as well: yeshiva.org.il/midrash/3156

@Mefaresh Somehow people who are like that on the internet are actually sometimes completely normal people IRL

@Mefaresh Thanks!

@msh210 I went with complaint, based on Jastrow.

tyndalearchive.com/TABS/Jastrow

@Daniel that is what is so scary. although when he first came on the site i was convinced he was a "troll" and it was just a shtick. and then he started getting angry.

@Mefaresh It's a lot easier to get angry and express anger at people you don't know and/or can't see.

@IsaacMoses true but to start throwing around claims of plagiarism and belittling others, thats the issue.

with no logical basis

@IsaacMoses the shame is though is that he walks away from this site without any self reflection of his actions, rather than everyone is out to get him, and no one appreciates his brilliance

@Mefaresh I'm explaining, not defending. It's musar haskel for everyone to take an extra deep breath before launching sharp words over the Internet, because you don't see the person's face you're talking to, to know how it will affect them, and they don't see your face, to know that you're a good person, and not just an Internet hate-machine.

@Mefaresh Text-only communications between strangers is a very poor medium for trying to change people. As a rule, expect change in people to be impossible. The best we can hope for is to fix content and maybe get a person to adjust a pattern of behavior here or there.

@IsaacMoses i agree completey. I remember a while back the site crosscurrents had an article about anonymity for commentators, and observed that sharp comments and insults dropped dramatically when a commentator used their real name. (this is prob fitting for the meta q asked recently). i assume because once their not hiding behind a screen name, they actions become representative of who they really are.

and they think twice before hurling insults.

@IsaacMoses doesn't mean that i as a person shouldn't be more able to be sovel such people

@Mefaresh Real name helps. Being a long-standing member of an online community under a pseudonym helps, too. Neither help as much as actually being in a room with someone.

Does anyone know where i can find שו״ת מהרי״ק החדשים (סימן מד) online, i want to see it inside

@IsaacMoses So whenever you decide to drop this "Isaac Moses" identity you made up and start using your real name we can expect some decent behavior out of you.

@yEz You wouldn't say such things if you were looking me in my swirl-encased, big, black eye.

@IsaacMoses very intimidating...

@Scimonster If it's hutra, there's no problem with Shabbos

@Mefaresh Thanks for the answer and the sources!

@Shokhet My pleasure!

@Mefaresh Why not add those links to your answer for a more complete answer?

@Shokhet done and done :-)

@Mefaresh Y'yasher kochacha! :-)

@Shokhet nuh so can i nudge you to accept my answer??

@Mefaresh You can...I'm probably going to wait a couple of days to see if someone else will put something up, since the question hit the front page recently...but I intend to accept it. If I don't by the end of the week, ping me here or by that question, and iyH I'll accept it then

Thanks again! :)

@Shokhet b'seder, hatzlacha

@Mefaresh Same to you :)

Does anyone know where i can find שו״ת מהרי״ק החדשים (סימן מד) online, i want to see it inside

Does anyone know the story of the Brisker Rav and the beggar who asked for tzedaka with chutzpah?

@Mefaresh I do

@yEz can you telle me the maase, and or where i can find it in print

@Mefaresh sure. BTW I asked the oilam at morning seder why they tuck in their knots and put out the strings. Unanimous answer was "looks nice" or "looks put together" or something of that sort. Basically, style.

@yEz if i may ask, what type of chevra are you talking about?

what type of backgrounds...its nogea to the question

@Mefaresh I imagine there is more than one story that could fit that description, but the basic maaseh that I am familiar with is that a beggar came and asked for money, and the Rov had just given him recently, so he pushed him off, at which point the beggar became upset and started raising his voice, at which point the Rov gave him the money. Those present (his children maybe?) asked him why he had given the beggar after such treatment, and he said that if he is so desperate that he would act

in such a way, he must really need the money.

@Mefaresh Kollel guys? Ner Israel and Lakewood graduates

@yEz interesting i heard a different maaseh, that he asked with chutzpah and he didn't give, when his kids asked why he didn't give he answered that someone who could ask with chutzpah isn't a true ani, and he quoted some passuk from mishlei or kohl's..

koheles

@Mefaresh heh that's the world of "maaseh'lach"

@Mefaresh I could suggest a chiluk in the two maasim though.

ein hach nami, but i remember reading that in the biography (not a rayah to the truth anyway)

nuh

If the guy came right out and asked with chutzpah vs. if he asked nicely and after being refused got upset.

also, i left out a detail that in the maaseh I think he knew who the ani was, and knew he wouldn't normally act that way.

so your saying there were two massehs

i hear, its very possible

@Mefaresh בדרך אפשר. For all we know, there are zero maasehs

@yEz ner israel mesivta guys, or kby-ner yisroel (i do not in anyway mean anything disparagingly)

it just makes a difference

@Mefaresh one is Kol-Torah --> Ner Israel one is KBY --> Ner Israel. One is R' Dovid Soloveitchik --> Lakewood...

@yEz I'm sure you got some funny looks at asking that question

@yEz this kollel is in america or EY?

@Mefaresh usa

@Mefaresh chip chip chip

@yEz i also ask question to my chevra here EY, but i would it wouldn't go over well that i saw it on Mi Yodeya, they don't get it. not mekubal

@Mefaresh ok I couldn't follow that sentence with the existing grammar. Try again?

@IsaacMoses I've given away my timezone before

@Mefaresh Say that it came from a yeshiva whatsap group

i also ask question that i see here on mi yodeya to my chevra here EY, but i would it wouldn't go over well, if i said that i saw it on Mi Yodeya, they don't get it. not mekubal

@IsaacMoses ... here in EY?? even worse..

> but i would it wouldn't go over well

??

*it

@Mefaresh I found why you were looking for the story? judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/60619/…

@Mefaresh "it wouldn't go over well"?

@yEz Yuo

*yup

@Mefaresh Uh. From a graffiti response on a pashkevil poster you saw on a wall?

@Scimonster shkoyach.

@yEz Well, it happens to be linked in your "about me", so...

@IsaacMoses nu nu, im not complaining everyone has their hakpados, just i know what i can share and can't share among my oilam, doesn't bother me.

@Mefaresh why does it need to be shared where the q came from?

and it came from you... so you didn't get the question from here anyways.

@yEz I'm speaking generally, sometimes i see question from other people that i ask. people ask "interesting, where did you see that question" etc.

@Mefaresh You could print all of the interesting questions you see, staple them together, and then say you saw it in a small kuntress.

@yEz what do you do?

@yEz im not looking to hide stuff

@Mefaresh if I discuss them, I am not generally asked where they came from.

@yEz Bkitzur the answers you were given vis a vis the tzitzis not a non halachic nature..

@Mefaresh yes and everyone I asked seemed to have made that decision consciously. I.e. not that they saw everyone else do it and thought it must be correct, but they knew the reason that they do it is because of how it looks.

@yEz interesting. funny how much style is taken into account. but it doesn't explain why Rav Nosson Tzvi did it. (as i personally have seen)

@Mefaresh R' Nosson Tzvi didn't want to be dressed in an orderly way?

and a myriad of other gedolei torah (who ddidnt care about syle)

@Mefaresh Did they tuck their shirts in?

i wouldn't say its not orderly to have the strings out, its just harriesh

@yEz of course

@Mefaresh The people I asked were not claiming they wanted to be yeshivish, they wanted to be presentable and they felt it looked more presentable.

@Mefaresh so if they care enough to tuck their shirts in, why couldn't they care enough to tuck their tzitzis knots in?

@yEz they would, unless there is an inyan to leave the strings out

*leave the knots out @yez

@Daniel ...or seem so.