@Shokhet @YeZ (I'm not caught up in this room yet, but just to address that question....) Not visibly to us. I'd assume someone has access to that info. But I wouldn't want to bother anyone for it without a really good reason.
@Daniel I see. the question has been closed already. I was just wondering what (if anything) people thought of the "p'sak seeking" vibes I was getting from that question; if the question would be clear, would you have voted as "request for psak"?
It feels like a request for psak b/c it's oddly specific....
@YeZ @Shokhet are any of the 0-score answers worthy of an upvote? I've stayed out of it because I don't know enough to evaluate their claims. The question itself seems reasonable to me (i.e. I see no reason it should be closed). Or has anything useful hit Google since the question was asked?
@MonicaCellio I feel a serious lack of understanding of what exactly this pizza oven is, and not enough desire to find out, to evaluate the answers. So I'll just have to keep seeing it pop up every now and then.
In fact, I'm tempted to close this as unclear, not because it's worded unclearly -- it's clearly asking whether this is permitted for the gentile woman -- but because I find it hard to believe that your clear wording reflects your intent, so your intent is unclear. — msh210 ♦45 secs ago
I happened to find an answer to your question when I was learning something else, but I can't post it here until I know what you meant to ask -- do you want to know if a court of law will punish this, or what God thinks about it? — Shokhet23 secs ago
.....annoyed at this question :( ....found something in מסילת ישרים that has to do with what God thinks about it, but I can't answer the question -- it's still unclear.
I try very hard, when I post on MY, to dejargonify as much as I can, so that what I write is accessible to as many people as possible. I've even been doing it (by now, mostly out of habit) whenever I ask a highly technical (sometimes even "yeshivish" :P) question.
I'm just wondering if that's ne...
I don't know who this is or what allegations are involved (haven't followed the link), but I'm uncomfortable with the question because on its surface it seems to me to skirt pretty close to the lashon hara line. Is there a way to ask this in a way that doesn't point first and foremost to whatever controversy this man is involved in? — Monica Cellio ♦2 mins ago
@IsaacMoses thanks for your response there ^^^. Yes, there could well be a real Judaism question here, one that we shouldn't be afraid to ask -- reliability of a posek, kashrut authority, or anything else on which we depend is important. But I think there's some work to do yet before the question fits.
... and before anyone goes there, this is NOT about "sweeping things under the rug," "ignoring important issues," "protecting the guilty," "not supporting victims," etc. It's just about making sure that we stick to what we're set up for.
Yes. Mi Yodeya neither condones nor condemns any particular behavior of any particular individual; it's not part of our charter.
That said, dealing with the consequences of things that disrupt the community can have important questions, and we're not vetoing those categorically.
The OP just made an edit that addresses my concern. I've removed my downvote.
Wait, there was a ninja edit -- what I commented on ^^^ isn't in the edit history. Hmm. The current form isn't in lashon hara territory but it's also pretty vague. I'm just going to be quiet for a while until edits settle down.
This is a good example of why putting questions on hold so they can be fixed is valuable. Imagine what would be happening if the question were open for answers with these changes in flight!
@IsaacMoses yeah, I figured I'd go through comments when the velocity of edits dies down a bit (just in case anything gets rolled back). But eh, I can always undelete if needed, so thanks -- off to clean up now.
Oh, most of them were already removed -- all comments purged now.
@MonicaCellio I just got a hat for that. I guess it's Dec 31 somewhere. :-)
There are close votes on this question as "too broad;" I don't see why. The only problem I could consider with this question is that it may be "primarily opinion based," but I think it's fine even in that regard. — Shokhet1 min ago
The Rambam explains the basic requirements of doing teshuva and seeking forgiveness from another person: acknowledging the transgression, making amends, and seeking forgiveness (presumably publicly per Yoma 87). If a person wrongs us and does these things, we're to forgive him. (He also has to ...
@YeZ what, if anything, do we require them to do? If they can/must/must not do teshuva as a Jew does, that's a useful answer if supported. If they don't do teshuva as we do but there's something they should do in its place, I'd like to know that too.
@Scimonster I understand "take in" to mean "bring into your house from elsewhere on your property", not "go down the street to the post office and collect it from your box". The OP is no longer around, so we won't get clarification from him.
@Scimonster It sure could. But I wouldn't use the phrase "take in" for the latter; I'd use "bring home" or "get." The "in" in "take in" implies that the move is from out to in.
"The question was debated in Beit Elohim of Rabbi Moshe of Trani at the 16th Century." -- anybody know what that might refer to? I assume that's this rabbi, but where would the relevant work be found? Wikipedia's link is dead.
> ... even the people of Nineveh, gentiles, are commanded to repent and pray that G–d fulfill their needs. However, for them this is not an independent Mitzvah, for they are only duty-bound to follow the seven Noahide laws. Rather, this is a subsection of the Mitzvah to reject idol worship and believe in G–d.
@IsaacMoses interesting, yes -- thanks! I wonder if this means that the expectation on gentiles is scoped only to transgressions against God (idolatry), or if it also includes transgressions against people (the starting point for my question).
... I think that to answer your question, @MonicaCellio, would require a deep dive into the nature of the requirement, in Jewish teshuva, to attain forgiveness from wronged parties, coupled with a deep dive into the nature of the interpersonal-commandments that are among the Seven Noahide Laws
@MonicaCellio Well, some of the Noahide Laws are interpersonal
@IsaacMoses hmm, yeah. I didn't realize it was such a big question when I asked it. I just figured there was an answer out there (that is, in existence) that I just didn't know yet -- like many other things I've asked about.
@MonicaCellio I think that application of Halacha to the behavior of non-Jews has been attacked much less in both the theoretical and practical literature than application to the behavior of Jews
@IsaacMoses true. I was thinking that it might be covered because it also affects us granting forgiveness (or not); it's not just about things between them and God, which we might not care as much about.
... it's quite possible that this question has indeed been covered in the literature, but not necessarily in classic, well-known sources and with redundancy, like most questions about Jewish teshuva probably have been.
Child metas don't have rep, so there's no point in tracking a rep stat or reporting changes. But one of the things rep updates do on main sites is to alert me when there's activity on older posts. On metas, unless I revisit a question I'll never notice that there's been a bunch of voting (which...
@user6641, I do disagree. Here are our 50 questions that include the name Jesus. 70% of them have net positive scores, and 80% of them have non-negative scores. More of them have net scores of greater than 5 than have net scores of less than 0. It would probably be more worthwhile to concentrate on determining/improving the fit of the question at hand. — Isaac Moses2 mins ago
@IsaacMoses has determined, according to his query, that [christianity] questions, on average, score higher than [halacha] questions (5 to 4); just for the curious. — Shokhet14 secs ago
....where's that gemara that says that one amorah asked another a question, and got yelled at it by a third because the amorah he asked wasn't holding in that mesechta?
@MonicaCellio so, to clarify, you're just asking about the requirements of a Noahide vis a vis repentance? That wasn't how I originally understood the question, but I can answer it now I think. The Mabit talks about the teshuva of non-Jews in Shaar HaTeshuvah chapter 13
@Matt yes -- a Noachide wrongs a Jew; what does he need to do according to us to do teshuva (if that's even meaningful), and if he doesn't is he included in our blanket forgiveness anyway (like Jews would be)? Thanks for taking a look! And if you can provide any feedback on how to make the question clearer, I'm interested.
Perhaps it's just my fault for reading too much into the introduction (regarding the pre-Yom Kippur release clause), but I thought you were just asking about that prayer and its applicability. Otherwise, the Mabit believes the laws of repentance for Jews and non-Jews to be equivalent, and many other poskim seem to assume this as well because they learn some laws of teshuva from the people of Ninveh in the Jonah story (who weren't Jewish)
@Matt so let's say that Ploni has wronged me (in a non-financial way -- he's just offended me or something), and likewise Joe Gentile has wronged me. My understanding from the answer I linked is that, come Yom Kippur, I've forgiven Ploni (unless maybe I say "except Ploni" when saying that text, which I don't know is kosher). So what about Joe Gentile? Same thing?
@Matt I'm sorry for the confusion. (I'm sorry it took until now to realize it was present.) It seemed possible that the concept of teshuva doesn't even apply between Jews and gentiles, and that was part of the background to the question. If the laws of teshuva are equivalent that's definitely valuable info, thanks! (Who's the Mabit?)
Ah ah, so if that's the question then we're back to me not being able to answer, sorry. It's not a question about Noahide's repentance requirements, it's about whether or not the prayer includes non-Jews. I would guess that it's your intent that matters but i don't know
It's a two-part question: (a) what does a gentile need to do if he wrongs a Jew, and (b) if he does nothing (doesn't do teshuva) is he part of the blanket forgiveness?
Moses ben Joseph di Trani (Hebrew: משה מטראני) known by his acronym Mabit (Salonica, Greece 1505 – Jerusalem, Ottoman Empire 1585) was a 16th-century rabbi in Safed.
His father had fled to Salonica from Apulia three years prior to his birth. While still a boy Moses was sent to Adrianople to pursue the study of the Talmud under the supervision of his uncle Aaron. At the age of sixteen he went to Safed and completed his studies under Jacob Berab. In 1525 he was appointed rabbi of Safed; he held this office for some fifty-five years, when he eventually moved to Jerusalem.
According to a 16th-century...
sorry for the confusion, then. I can answer (a) to say that his requirements are the same as that of a Jew, but not (b)
The Nineveh case is interesting but the transgression there was idolatry, a transgression against God. I'm wondering about the case where a wrong is done against a Jew, meaning that if it were another Jew the wrongdoer would have to approach the victim, acknowledge the wrong, make amends, ask forgiveness, etc.
@Matt ah! We were talking about him earlier, but I didn't recognize the abbreviation. Thanks.
@Matt oh, hmm. So wrongs against other people were involved. There may be an answer there, then.
I had not realized how complicated the question would be, and even if a complete answer isn't possible (or isn't possible soon), I'll happily award the bounty to a partial answer, something that at least gets me closer.
I was reading this post about one person's issues with Stack Overflow, and something it said struck me (as I noticed the same thing, but didn't attempt to articulate it):
The "flavour" of StackOverflow today is entirely different than the flavour it had when I started. When I started the com...