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12:00 AM
Using this software which is free (+ $10 S/H) for the next few days?
@IsaacMoses @MonicaCellio @msh210 @HodofHod @SethJ @ba to ping some chat regulars. If there is interest we can bring it up on Mi Yodeya Meta.
The software is just something I saw which prompted the idea. We can do things some other way maybe if we want.
12:17 AM
ill stick with rambams
@DhoweedYaAgov The Rambam doesn't include anything extra to say. How do you plan to fulfill the injunction: מצוה עלינו לספר ביציאת מצריים; וכל המאריך ביציאת מצריים, הרי זה משובח?
@DoubleAA What would the Haggadah consist of?
@Fred I don't know. I'm just making this up now! Perhaps divrei torah written by various Yodeyans; copies of relevant q/a from the site, if they are seder appropriate;
And a full expanded Mi Yodeya song! :)
I'm open to other suggestions.
12:32 AM
@DoubleAA Sounds interesting. We're not stuck with their font, are we?
@Fred Good thing Nirtza comes after Tzafun!
@DoubleAA Whoops. Yes.
@HodofHod No idea. We can probably rip the text from elsewhere if need be.
@Fred The real question is, will they finish by the time they have to say Keriat Shema in the morning :)
@DoubleAA Not if they have to read the entire text of every answer. Unless you're the Micro Machines man.
@DoubleAA Cool idea! I bet the whole thing could be adapted from existing MY content
A lot of work to get a good job done by this Pesach. Maybe aim for v0.1 for this Pesach, then refine over the coming year?
12:39 AM
@IsaacMoses I'm imagining a meta post asking people to post a bunch of questions that they can imagine asking or being asked at the seder. We could tag them or so, and include a bunch of them in the haggadah.
@DoubleAA Any ideas for a title?
@Fred Seder: Mi Yodeya?
I'm not committed to that though.
@DoubleAA Sounds good, already on topic. :)
I'm laughing over here. Sounds fantastic, though I'm no more optimistic than @Isaac Moses about getting it done in time. Some of us have to work!
@DoubleAA There are already 60 questions at judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/…
@SethJ Not to mention that pre-Pesach is probably busier than usual for most people.
12:50 AM
@Fred 9 don't have answers or are closed.
1:11 AM
@DoubleAA what do you mean by your statemnet bour rambams haggada?
it has the brochoth and everything like that, everything else is customs
@Fred Don't forget , , , , etc.
... shemot, vaeira, bo, beshalach, exodus
1:30 AM
@IsaacMoses Good point.
1:51 AM
I strongly suspect that we could curate and adapt a whole hagada's worth of stuff from existing Q&A.
2:07 AM
@DoubleAA For curation and adaptation, how about a series of Meta Qs, one for each section of the Hagada (with multiple for Magid), with the answers being edited content that could go into the commentary for that section?
@MonicaCellio was this really your first question on MY?
Q: why do we say Pesach seder brachot both nights?

Monica CellioDuring the Pesach seder, but not during the rest of Pesach, we say b'rachot for the mitzvot of matzah and maror. (I mean the "asher kidshanu b'mitzvotav" b'rachot.) So it seems that we are only commanded in this for the night of the seder. But in the diaspora we have two seder nights and we sa...

2:24 AM
@DoubleAA It looks like it might not be much more than a bunch of text and clipart
2:40 AM
@MonicaCellio, @doubleaa, @msh210 does this merit historical lock, or can this be edited (or is it ok)?
Q: Karpas - What do you use?

Gershon GoldI have heard of potatoes, celery, scallion. What else do people use for Karpas? Is there one item that is more L'Chatchila than the others?

And this (sorry, @IsaacMoses)
Q: How do you pick a Hagada to use at the Seder?

Isaac MosesThere are hundreds or thousands of editions of the Hagada available. How do you choose which one is best to use at the Seder?

@SethJ Borderline. The title is definitely poor, but the question could be OK, especially if it asked for sources. (Though the listiness isn't great.)
@SethJ Not a list question. Perhaps a tad subjective, but if it had "and why" at the end, I think it'd be fine as Good Subjective.
3:08 AM
@DoubleAA oh cool! And I personally have a use for that (i.e. it's not just a curiosity); this year I am ditching the annoying family sedarim, going to my rabbi for the first night, and (if all goes well) holding my own for the second night for a group of adults who want to really engage with the haggadah and don't care how long we spend on it.
(That's the plan; still trying to confirm critical mass.) So if I do that, I'll need haggadot...
@DoubleAA yes, using questions/answers from our site would be better IMO than soliciting people for divrei torah to include. Let's promote the content we have here.
@DoubleAA Wow, it looks like there are a bunch of offerings in the make-your-own-Hagada space
@SethJ yes, aside from one I asked and deleted 15 minutes later because I thought it had an obvious answer and I didn't want to look stupid in front of all the smart people here on my first time out. (I was wrong to delete it, as it turned out -- newbie jitters.)
@SethJ this seems like it should get a historical lock.
@SethJ this doesn't. It's asking "how to pick", not "what do you use". Maybe it could be massaged a bit.
@IsaacMoses ... some of which, of course, don't actually exist. But the text, at least, is out there. I'd say that content is something we could handle very well here. Design, typesetting, book layout - we're not as geared up to do. but maybe if we assemble the content, we can get someone (a real publisher?) to help with that, especially if we allow a year to do that. @DoubleAA, How about a bare-content "Seder Supplement - Beta" this year and a goal for a published book by Hagada season next year?
... a Seder Supplement could be "published" as a fairly clean .pdf for people to print out and used at seders, put out in stacks at shul, etc.
3:31 AM
@IsaacMoses I don't see a need to set out our whole business plan right now.
Anyway, people seem interested so I've pung some SE people to see what they have to offer. Hopefully I'll have a meta post up in the next day or two.
In the meantime:
ask more Seder-esque questions!
@DoubleAA ?
@DhoweedYaAgov Are you serious?
1) The Rambam himself says that this is the customary text to use. There is no obligatory text. Also, all the Brachoth and instructions added in on that page you linked to were done by the company Mechon Mamre. The Rambam's text is here: mechon-mamre.org/i/3509.htm (note the third word).
2) The whole principle of the Haggada we'd make is to add things to discuss outside the text. They would not have fixed format, but would be useful in fulfilling the Rambam's injunction to speak excessively about the story. So we aren't claiming to be anything more than a minhag (less in fact).
@MonicaCellio Just to separate that complaint from my above point about future plans.
4:02 AM
@SethJ (Just catching up with backread.) The preceding chat pot had a single apostrophe, so I closed it
@MadaraUchiha That can be a good reason for the mods to be owners: to prevent auto-assignment to another.
@DhoweedYaAgov I have no idea what you're talking about. See chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/8344005#8344005
@msh210 ;)
@DoubleAA You open the brainstorming tap, you get showered.
@IsaacMoses I agree with Isaac on this, @SethJ. It already says "How do you choose" which is "why",
@IsaacMoses Fair enough :)
4:19 AM
@msh210 Why is auto-assignment necessarily a bad thing?
@MonicaCellio That's true for the 'running commentary' type part. But perhaps, individual pieces can be used for introduction, or appendixes or something else.
@HodofHod What if you get someone you don't like?
20 secs ago, by Double AA
@HodofHod What if you get someone you don't like?
@DoubleAA Maybe, yeah. But they're not really necessary.
Apr 17 '12 at 4:39, by Isaac Moses
@Jin Why stop there? Go whole lamb and make a whole illuminated Haggada!
If they get auto assigned it means they're the most active user in the room. Looking at the thresholds for that, looks like your room is already going to be pretty dead if they manage to get auto-assigned.
@DoubleAA true. We can tease it all out in a meta post.
@IsaacMoses :-)
12 hours later…
4:25 PM
Hi @MonicaCellio
Q: How is it possible for Muslims to be classified as Gentiles even if they Don't deem Torah to be corrupt and have Abrahimic Lineage?

AliMuslims don't believe Torah to be corrupt nor do they deny the Torah and it is considered in the six articles of faith to believe in all revealed scriptures like Torah, Psalms etc . Also Muslim share a common patriarch Prophet Moses and believe in all of the subsequent prophets like Israel etc ,...

may i know why this important question is locked?
I had only given proofs as asked by various users for that i had to quote from other scriptures and why was it roll backed have the dispute resolved?
@msh210 hi how r u
@Ali The vast majority of the screen real estate occupied by the longer version of the question was occupied by an aside that had nothing to do with the question being asked.
@Ali A good edit kept getting reverted.
@Ali I'm well. Thanks. Yourself?
I am doing great Alhamdulillah
@msh210 the aside eplained the relevance of the question
Ooops bare with me i am on my old PC. Keyboard is faultyu
any ways @msh210 where do you live /?
are you from ethipia?
@Ali Never been there.
@Ali The States.
O u mentioned abysyna
how you manage to get the link so fast
Its morning there?
@Ali click on the arrow that faces down at the left end of message
then click permalink
@AlUmmatمجاهد i knew that but how can we do it fast
like 2ms
ops @msh210
@Ali some people can do it very fast, like some can type a keyboard like their fingers are lightning :)
oh, it also may depend on how fast a computer is running
Ya i most of the people on SE are so quick to get a formatted reply with all links as if they are giving an exam
4:46 PM
@Ali I went to chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/info/468/vdibarta-bam and searched the room for abyssinia.
Ok you are developer/
Or a PhD ?
@Ali not a software developer, if that's what you mean.
Also not a real-estate developer.
Also not a film developer.
I do develop things, but who doesn't?
@msh210 I took it as a corruption of "I'll be seeing you." Was I right? </Killing-a-joke-with-explanation>
@IsaacMoses Yeah.
@msh210 Well, not in its usual meaning, anyway.
6:01 PM
Q: Examples of Destruction of Idolatry in Tanach by Minority Believers in a Pagan Land

AliAre there examples, in Tanach or other Jewish sources to date, of a minority believer community or prophet destroying idolatry in a majority pagan land?

@msh210 What kind of question is this? It's like asking "Are there any examples in all of Jewish literature of someone eating an apple with a fork?". Who cares? @Ali @SethJ @DoubleAA
@msh210 Did you just ask yourself?
@SethJ I'm asking anyone present.
6:03 PM
"someone eating an apple with a fork " is not a commandment and is trivial
@Ali I don't see that the question says destroying idolatry in a majority-pagan land is a commandment. (I also don't know it to be one, outside of Israel. I may well be wrong, though.)
but destruction of idolatry is very virtuos thing in fullfillment of top commandments
@Ali Let's say (arguendo). So?
@Ali @msh210 "Is there X in Tanach" is not much of a question, no matter what X is, unless the question also includes information about why X might be in Tanach and why anyone should care whether X is in Tanach.
Wanted to know some interesting examples throughout
6:06 PM
@Ali "Are there any examples in Tanach or elsewhere of Jews eating pork?"
@IsaacMoses Precisely. And this asks for X in all of Jewish texts, whcih is both not much of a question and also much harder to answer
ofcourse motivation is the importance of destruction of idolatry
@Ali We don't rank commandments.
@SethJ there's d'oraysa vs. d'rabanan, but I don't think that's what was meant
It is a perfect question and is indeed hard to answer and thats why it is asked
@msh210 whats that?
6:08 PM
@Ali Not really important, it was an aside.
@msh210 Oh. I missed that clause, which, yes, makes this much more general, and more of a history question than a text question. That said, if it could be demonstrated that X here was a Mitzva, such a history question could be posed as an interesting and worthwhile one. I'd take out the reference to texts in that case and just make it explicitly about history
Why you people are taking Idolatry so lightly as to compare it with "apples..." \pork ..
@IsaacMoses Like I said I don't think it can be demonstrated that that's a mitzva outside of Israel. Do you (anyone) know?
@msh210 I don't.
6:11 PM
@Ali Idolatry is not light. I'm comparing a question seeking all examples of someone destroying idolatry in all Jewish texts to anyother question seeking all examples of something in all Jewish texts.
@Ali Because you're not giving us a reason to consider it differently. We're having a meta conversation about the relevance of the question, not a discussion about the relative merits of apples to one's diet.
@IsaacMoses No history question I dont like their site they want archaelogical evidences and wont accept religious sources
@IsaacMoses But then it's not about Judaism at all. It doesn't ask about Judaism except to seek cites in Jewish texts.
@msh210 "Are there any examples in recent history of someone performing pidyon peter chamor? I care b/c this is a Mitzva in the Torah which is theoretically relevant now, but I don't hear about it much." <-- off topic?
It was disheartening to know the first reaction to the question in chat when it was compared with the "apple example"
6:14 PM
Appeal to consequences, also known as argumentum ad consequentiam (Latin for "argument to the consequences"), is an argument that concludes a hypothesis (typically a belief) to be either true or false based on whether the premise leads to desirable or undesirable consequences. This is based on an appeal to emotion and is a type of informal fallacy, since the desirability of a consequence does not make it true. Moreover, in categorizing consequences as either desirable or undesirable, such arguments inherently contain subjective points of view. In logic, appeal to consequences refers only...
@Ali Because we're not discussing idolatry. We're discussing your question.
@Ali they have rules here just like we have rules on Islam.SE
@IsaacMoses Not IMO. Not a strong question, but not off-topic. What do you think?
@IsaacMoses I don't understand why that was a reply to the chat post of mine that it was a reply to.
@IsaacMoses Someone I know was recently discussing dropping off a dead donkey at the home of a Kohen he disliked.
@AlUmmatمجاهد Exactly. As SE people, we take the rules quite seriously, since that's what sets SE sites apart from silly, open-ended forums. As observant Jews, we're very used to taking the rules seriously. (Something I expect you can relate to, too. :)
@msh210 "Are there examples in history of Jews smashing idols? I care b/c this is a Mitzva in the Torah, but I've never heard of it being practiced." <-- not similarly on-topic?
@Ali I don't understand this message
6:18 PM
@IsaacMoses Same as the other.
@IsaacMoses put a colon before and after "I don't like their site", no comma anywhere before that, and an apostrophe in "wont".
@msh210 So, that's what I'm saying the Q in question could theoretically be if this is in fact a Mitzva (or could reasonably be assumed to be one from a Jewish Q POV).
@IsaacMoses I agree it's on-topic if it claims (and preferably cites) a mitzva. That doesn't make it a good question.
And right now it makes no such claim.
Q: Women face veil prescribed

AliI read here about certain Jewish sects prescribing face veil ,Is there a rule on covering the faces of women in presence of unrelated men? Was such a veil used by the women in biblical times and do any Jewish sects encourage face veil for women today? Is there any Tanachical (or other) source req...

@IsaacMoses Oh, I see. You were reading my:
9 mins ago, by msh210
@IsaacMoses But then it's not about Judaism at all. It doesn't ask about Judaism except to seek cites in Jewish texts.
@msh210 Agreed and agreed. It could thence be made into a good question, IMO, with the addition of stronger motivation.
6:22 PM
[cont'd] ... as assuming that the mitzva-info would be edited in the question. That's not what I'd meant.
@msh210 You and your apostrophes again. I still don't get it. Who's "they"?
@msh210 OK. I think we're on the same page now.
:8374927 because we, and I believe no SE site wants low quality questions
@IsaacMoses they=history.SE. Of course, this is only my read. The author's present.
@msh210 I did ask him first. :)
The "minority believer community or prophet destroying idolatry" Q has no closure votes.
6:24 PM
@msh210 I believe it is a mitzva, just there is no obligation to seek it out in order to destroy it.
@msh210 Are you sure?
@IsaacMoses No. bbiab
@msh210 @IsaacMoses I am on my Old PC and keyboard is 10 yrs old! My laptop has timer blocks :(
Q: Is it allowed to make paintings of living creatures?

AliAmong the Ten Commandments is: Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth (Exodus 20:3, JPS) According to history, paintings have also been converted...

@DoubleAA Rambam AZ 7:2 ובארץ ישראל, מצוה לרדוף אחריה עד שנאבד אותה מכל ארצנו; אבל בחוצה לארץ, אין אנו מצווין לרדוף אחריה, אלא כל מקום שנכבוש אותו, נאבד כל עבודה זרה שבו:
AZ 7:2 ובארץ ישראל, מצוה לרדוף אחריה עד שנאבד אותה מכל ארצנו; אבל בחוצה לארץ, אין אנו מצווין לרדוף אחריה, אלא כל מקום שנכבוש אותו, נאבד כל עבודה זרה שבו:?
6:27 PM
@Ali I was sourcing my previous linked-to statement.
@DoubleAA "אלא כל מקום שנכבוש אותו" means "any area we've conquered"? If so, that's a special case.
@IsaacMoses Seems to me more like any time we have the opportunity to. Like if we happen upon it, but you don't need to go look for it.
@DoubleAA OK
I didn't vote to close. I only made (perhaps too subtle) recommendations to improve the question.
Q: Women face veil prescribed

AliI read here about certain Jewish sects prescribing face veil ,Is there a rule on covering the faces of women in presence of unrelated men? Was such a veil used by the women in biblical times and do any Jewish sects encourage face veil for women today? Is there any Tanachical (or other) source r...

6:43 PM
@IsaacMoses As you know, I'm not authoritative.
@DoubleAA Unnecessary. This quotation could easily be used as part of a reasonable motivation of the question.
... and I'd CMR rather than relying on chat messages before going a-sledgehammerin' myself.
@IsaacMoses They're very related. How is this different from many multi-question questions on-site?
@DoubleAA sounds good
@msh210 Do we have other questions that ask "What is the Halacha, and what is the history of observance?" I think it muddies the waters to mix the two.
@IsaacMoses Maybe not (have such). Definitely so (muddies).
2 hours later…
8:36 PM
@Ali For future reference, "hard to answer," around here, generally means something like "not clear and/or focused enough to allow for verifiable, constructive answers" not "challenging," and is a quality to be avoided.
9:06 PM
anyone from bk area in here?
@DhoweedYaAgov Yes.
@msh210 know any mashgiach openings or computer tech opening? :P
@msh210 ive been around all boro park looking for a mashgiach job and no one needs anyone, only after pesahH
@msh210 i mean i have a job at a caterers place, but its an every other day thing. :/
9:25 PM
@DhoweedYaAgov No. Sorry. Hatzlacha. (Or however you would transliterate it.)
@msh210 HasSlocho
@DhoweedYaAgov That, then.

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