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12:01 AM
@TRiG Thank you so so so much!
12:52 AM
I'll not be editing again until at least an hour or so from now. If someone wants to do some before, they're welcome.
Just please announce when you start, when you end, and which region of chat messages you've reviewed.
1:25 AM
Should "Barry deflected" be changed to the more polite "Barry clarified/corrected" ? (Page 36)
@HodofHod Could be. That was my verb, and I agree that it could be nicer.
@IsaacMoses Incidentally, the s.tk page makes it seem as if that's the final draft, but it's not, right?
@HodofHod The decision was that it's good enough that people can download and use as is. We're going to make it better. We could theoretically keep making it better forever, but hopefully, we'll get it to 99.5% by tomorrow morning.
@HodofHod Share, share, share. By the time half the people you share with see the link, the file to download will be better than it is now, anyway.
@IsaacMoses Shared!
@HodofHod Y"K
1:40 AM
..and Plussed!
I see you have too. Just came up on my stream.
@HodofHod Thanks to your reminder.
2:07 AM
@HodofHod oh, hey, if you want to ping me on G+... (you know my name but I don't know yours :-) )
@IsaacMoses I just got my first download confirmation. :-)
@MonicaCellio Y"K
@IsaacMoses looks like you got one too. :-)
Hey @Jin, who would we talk with about getting an announcement of the haggadah project out via SE's G+/Twitter feeds? (I see posts show up on G+ from lots of different SE sites, all via one SE account, but I have no idea how those posts are chosen and managed.)
More than one. :)
@MonicaCellio I'll bet if you ask in the mod room, someone will help. Aarthi is a good bet, at least as a starting point.
OK; beginning edits now. I will post new docs and a pointer to where I left off when I leave off.
2:27 AM
@IsaacMoses good point. Thanks.
2:37 AM
@MonicaCellio I can ask Joel to tweet it. he's got a lot of twitter followers
@Jin That sounds like an excellent idea!
@IsaacMoses that's s.tk/miyodeya is a permanent redirect. I think the server must had a hiccup when you checked.
I'll ask him to tweet it tomorrow morning, so more people will see it.
@Jin thank you so much!
the url to tweet is s.tk/miyodeya correct?
@Jin If you say so! You gave us that link :)
2:40 AM
@Jin indeed it is!
ha yes.
thanks for all your hardwork!
@Jin and thank you for making it beautiful.
@TRiG and after the parentheses
@MonicaCellio I think my part is rather minor, really. Formatting in Word, and making sure the content is great is the hard part.
Jul 19 '12 at 15:35, by msh210
@TRiG You can (and should, since "bring" is nonstandard) usually substitute "cite".
2:58 AM
Still editing, so not sticking around. Thanks @Jin, @MonicaCellio. Came here to report my excitement and discovering that global find/replace of a straight quotation mark (single or double) with a curly one makes them all curl the right way automatically. One fell swoop [each]. Woohoo!
@IsaacMoses woo hoo! (bye!)
3:24 AM
I've implemented pretty much everything suggested above. Tahnks [very much , @TRiG!
@IsaacMoses thanks to you and to @TRiG!
New files, with new filename Hagada-Mi_Yodeya_5773.*: docx pdf
... and it's live at s.tk/miyodeya
Of course, there's no reason we can't keep improving it, except that we need to spend some time on a couple of other Pesach preparations.
But, if a few typos were keeping you from sharing until now, please share!
4:08 AM
Q: Using Christian interpretations in answers

jakeThis question as inspired by the comments to my answer here. (See also my answer here.) Is is proper, in the context of this site, to use Christian or other non-Jewish sources (for example, secular Biblical scholars) in answering questions, particularly exegetical questions? On the one hand, th...

4:23 AM
There's so much awesome in this room.
Pardon my ignorance, is Hagada another spelling for Haggadah?
@jin yes. Either is acceptable. Haggadah is more pleasing to Hebrew lovers, I think.
In the Hebrew word, the 'g' letter is doubled, and the word ends with an unpronounced 'h'.
4:39 AM
@SethJ I think I've seen the latter spelling more often. In fact, the tag on Mi Yodeya site is Haggadah, also it's spelled that way in the publication proposal post.
hm weird. i guess there's a redirect for haggadah to passover-seder-hagada
@jin the redirect was probably because whoever created the tag preferred that spelling, and it got multiple uses, and later mods realized the other spelling was being used or was likely to be.
I've also seen hagodo, hagodoh, and haggodoh.
@jin not now, because I'm badly in need of some sleep, but perhaps tomorrow could we private chat?
@SethJ sure. i need to go to bed myself. have a good night.
Print this out and bring it to your Passover Seder: http://s.tk/miyodeya
ha Joel is one step ahead of me. I'll retweet him in the morning too.
4:55 AM
@jin Oh that's awesome. @Isaac Moses will be ecstatic.
5:06 AM
@SethJ Indeed. I knew it had happened before I checked twitter or came here b/c I saw the view count on the post go up by about 150 in a few minutes.
5:26 AM
OK, who else believes that we can have a bound Hagada out by next Pesach?
6:19 AM
@IsaacMoses raises his hand.
4 hours later…
3 hours later…
12:53 PM
@IsaacMoses I do!
@TRiG Why are you surprised?
Hey all, I just closed, and propose deleting, this -- thoughts? judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/27366/…
Why do you want to delete my question?
It's legitimate to doubt judaism
Do you really believe in religion or do you study it from writers point of view?
Do you plan to release your own version of Holy book?
@Derfder (1) It's not a question but a polemic. (2) It doesn't really meet the standards of politeness that I personally expect.
@Derfder What are you talking about?
if you have brain damage from using drugs
Charlie Sheen
is an example
at least in 21st century
Do you live in Israe or USA?
1:06 PM
@Derfder, we are not going to argue with you. You are at Mi Yodeya, where one of the axioms is that Judaism's teachings are important. You're doing the equivalent of going onto Islam and maligning their prophet or going to Math and saying that 2+2=5 or going to Stack Overflow and saying that technology is stupid and programmers should all become farmers. And you're doing it rudely. Please stop. You're allowed to disagree, but do it politely and respectfully please.
Do you live in Israel?
Where do you live?
What happened to the points I have earned ;(((((
> In our modern society, religious doctrine is made obsolete by state doctrine of our country’s laws and ideals.
I agree
I don't agree with that, but I do agree with much else you have to say there. This is, however, not the correct venue.
For a start, it's not a question.
> "Nothing could be more idiotic and absurd than the doctrine of the trinity." Robert Green Ingersoll
I agree. So, I suspect, do many of the regulars here.
In fact, quite a lot of those quotes are specific to Christianity.
Tell me, did you actually read that massive wall of text before pasting it here?
@SethJ First time I've got that badge, I think. And I never would have expected to get it on this site before I went on that proofeading spree. (Still not entirely sure why I did that, actually. I should have known that once I started I wouldn't be able to stop.)
> "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beutiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" - Douglas Adams
You do know the context for this quote, don't you? You're not merely parroting it because it sounds good (or because Dawkins chose to use it in The God Delusion)?
1:30 PM
nah, I am jew but not a religious
I dont'believe in crap
i believe in science and emotions
@Derfder Yes you do. We all do. (Some of us believe in less crap than others.)
@Derfder Agreed, but again, there's a time and a place.
I like to collect minerals
once I have a stone
and I called it Kamen dobra
it's in czech
it means Good stone or stone of good
and I prayed to that stone. the pray was my modification
it was way back
but now I don't have no religious belief
Question: What are you actually trying to achieve?
Also, my thoughts on religion (well, mainly my thoughts on myself).
> What do you think about this anti-religion quotes?
That isn't actually an answerable question, is it?
I'm no lover of religion, and I think it as a general rule does more harm than good. I'm happy to make that clear in chat, and now and again it leaks into my actual questions on the site, but I do still try to ensure that questions are questions. They might contain a bit of frustration, but they're not pure rants, and there is actually a question in there to answer.
1:38 PM
@TRiG Civility FTW.
@IsaacMoses Not always. (Civility is overrated.)
@IsaacMoses It's a matter of picking your fights and picking your venue.
@TRiG I suspect that that and civility could be boiled down, essentially, to the same pattern of behavior
@TRiG At least in the case of MLK Jr., those quotes are pretty civil.
in The Upper Room, Sep 25 '12 at 20:24, by TRiG
But the line between contrarian and troll can be a thin one to dance on.
@TRiG Is that a quantitative or qualitative statement?
1:43 PM
@SethJ Quantitative, I think.
(Greta Christina has written quite a bit on that topic.)
@TRiG Well, certainly there are people who swallow a lot of nonsense. But how does one quantify it? If someone believes every word of something you disbelieve entirely, is each word a new bit of nonsense?
@SethJ I don't know (also, this is something I worry about).
@Ali, I believe you were asked to stop inviting people from here out of the blue to join Islam chat.
@Jin, Sorry about reporting that s.tk/miyodeya was down yesterday. It seems that the problem is localized to my office, which suffers from web filtering.
Oddly, s.tk/judaism also doesn't work for me, though, e.g. s.tk/bicycles does.
1:59 PM
@IsaacMoses, how are you planning on printing/distributing the Haggadah?
@SethJ I've been spreading the link around in various electronic ways. I've printed out one b&w copy at home for personal use so far. I'm sure I'll make more, probably at a copy store, possibly in color if I can do so at a reasonable price.
@SethJ ... I don't know about shipping speed, but it looks to me like color printouts can be had at much cheaper than copy stores charge at moxicopy.com
@Ali, I told you not to invite me into other sites' chat rooms after you did it to me in Islam twice. Just for the record, Christianity's chat room also counts as another site's chat room. Stop it.
@IsaacMoses @MonicaCellio @DoubleAA :( I just noticed a Hebrew typo. Page 10 זִכָּרוּן
@SethJ Wow. I'm sure I got that by copying from some other source. If you have word and dropbox and can fix it, please do
There's also a spacing problem a couple paragraphs later that may be caused by RTL issues, but the זִכָּרוּן bugs me.
@IsaacMoses Not sure I have the ability to. Super :(
2:08 PM
@SethJ Actually it was on purpose. "Zicaroon" is a word meaning "canister of macaroons from last year that you found put away with the Pesach dishes"
@SethJ Probable source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiddush
... That's what I get for copying traditional text out of WP.
@IsaacMoses we don't have a s./tk redirect for every site. it's only used for special stuff. I believe bicycles.se had a promotion thing a while back that's why the shortener was set up for it.
@Jin Just for kicks, can you confirm that s.tk/miyodeya works for you right now? It does not for me, where I am. Maybe I just have stale DNS references, or something.
@IsaacMoses works for me fine
@Jin OK close as "too localized"
@IsaacMoses it worked for me this morning from home and works now from work.
2:20 PM
@MonicaCellio ... and it worked for me from home this morning, too
@IsaacMoses ok, I blame your IT department. It might not be fair, but it's usually the way to bet. :-)
@MonicaCellio <snicker> Don't get me started ... :)
2:35 PM
@Jin, you free to chat?
@SethJ yes
SE's G+ account has linked H-MY.
@IsaacMoses yay!
@Jin Any way SE can track how many downloads there have been?
@DoubleAA It's hosted by dropbox, on my account (currently). I don't know dropbox very well. Perhaps there's a way to get download count out of it.
2:45 PM
@DoubleAA hmm I don't think so. If anything, maybe dropbox would have that stat?
@DoubleAA The "view" count on the post just passed 1300 ...
i retweeted joel's tweet this morning. I don't have nearly as many followers as him, but every bit helps!
Our first award on Meta of Popular Question.
@Jin It sure does. Thanks!
@Jin Yes, indeed!
2:55 PM
the SE twitter account just retweeted Joel's tweet
@Jin Good, good, and good. Now we just need SE to pintrest and instagram it. :)
Seriously, the frontier to be conquered here is Jewish blogs. If you know anyone who writes one, please reach out.
3:12 PM
On thing I think we could do better in future publications/versions is a proper paper-oriented bibliography
3:53 PM
@IsaacMoses Feel free to mention it to that chat's site mods so they have a record of behavior -- if you wish.
@MonicaCellio ^^
in Islam, 1 hour ago, by goldPseudo
@Ali "Ali has now been suspended from chat for a month. For repeated attempts to draw moderators from other sites into discussions without context and against repeated warnings not to."
@msh210 I pointed out @IsaacMoses's and my Ali messages here to goldPseudo.
@MonicaCellio Thanks.
@MonicaCellio And he's still refusing to take any responsibility. What a surprise!
4:10 PM
@MonicaCellio Thanks. It's a shame that he's not learning his lesson, but it's a good thing that the network has ways of progressively and effectively responding.
@IsaacMoses indeed. I would prefer that he become a productive and respectful participant, but if he chooses not to do that, at least the network has ways to respond.
Some proofreading results from my mother:
p. 2 I would hyphenate "question-and-answer."
p. 6 #4 I'm not sure, but I don't think "questions" should be plural.
p. 6 bottom "yetziah"
p. 11 is a little confusing, because it's not clear how he jumped from 400 to 210.
If someone with Word and dropbox wants to review and address these and the one Seth found, that'd be nice.
4:26 PM
@IsaacMoses That last one is an issue with the original post, that I'm not quite sure how to fix.
Also, what do I do with the doc after correcting? Or am I just confirming?
Whoa, looks like some serious flags were thrown in here.....
@HodofHod If you can: Make corrections in Word. Save as PDF. Upload both to Dropbox. Post links to both here and report which correction messages you've addressed. Update the link on the Meta post to point to your new PDF.
I have to run now to prepare for shabbos. I can try to get to it later, but if someone else has the opportunity first, by all means.....
1 hour later…
5:38 PM
Incidentally, I've just found another abbreviation: Ps. 37:25.
Also Deut. 15:10 in the same sentence.
Interesting "about me" text for this site:
Jin ♦, Raleigh, NC
101 1 4
> I design stuff for Stack Exchange. Also a professional bacon eater.
@TRiG yeah, I laughed when I saw that. :-)
@TRiG Nice. FTR, we don't find pork offensive; we're just not allowed to eat it ourselves.
@IsaacMoses indeed. I've had people (say, in the lunch room at work) apologize to me for the pork they're eating, and they seem surprised when I tell them it doesn't bother me at all -- for them to eat it.
@IsaacMoses When religious people say that sort of thing, I usually find it difficult to believe it, but for some reason I do believe it from Jews.
@TRiG This may be related to the fact that we don't want everyone else to become Jewish. (To believe in God as we do and be good humans in accordance with how we believe He wants, yes, but to become Jewish and eschew bacon, no.)
@MonicaCellio Two possible reasons: 1) Not eating pig is one of the few things about our lifestyle that's very commonly known. 2) There may be another religion people are aware of with a similar restriction but a different attitude toward the object of it.
5:53 PM
@IsaacMoses I suspect it's mostly 1. Another oddity I've heard is that we're not allowed to touch pork, or pigs.
@IsaacMoses That's probably it, yes.
@msh210 "I thought you're Jewish. How are you playing football?!?"
A: Is it possible for a Gentile to convert to Judaism?

msh210It depends what you mean by convert to Judaism. If you mean "accept the god of the Jews as God, do what he says you have to do, and believe in the core Jewish beliefs" (which sounds to me like a good description of a religion, so one can call it Judaism), then that's what people sometimes call No...

@IsaacMoses Yeah, exactly.
@msh210 A fairly natural assumption which would follow from the same purity taboo.
@TRiG I suppose. See e.g. Genesis 3:3: God had said not to eat from the tree, and Eve said "God hath said: Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it...'".
5:56 PM
@msh210 I was just writing a comment referring to that!
@msh210 In practise, inferring what Jews may or may not be concerned about doesn't seem to work at all. There is some rhyme and reason to it, but it's not at all obvious.
@TRiG Fair enough. Assuming that we wouldn't be offended by anything that wouldn't offend a reasonable person in the surrounding culture is probably a policy that will work. One thing we're likely to take more offense at than others, I suppose, is assuming that we're Christians, celebrate Christian holidays, or accept certain basic Christian ideas about divinity.
@TRiG I agree completely.
@IsaacMoses I agree. Cf.:
A: What are some mistakes non-Jewish people should avoid when asking questions on this site?

Monica CellioWe welcome questions about Judaism. You will probably get many answers. They will probably conflict. Welcome to Judaism. :-) A couple things you might want to watch out for: Try not to call our bible the "old testament"; that's a Christian term. You can call it the Hebrew Bible or the Tanak...

@IsaacMoses Moving from JW to atheism, I've always been a member of a religious minority myself.
@IsaacMoses were all fix-the-hagada posts here pinned before today already taken care of? I can unpin to reduce clutter.
6:08 PM
@msh210 I reviewed all of them and implemented most. I support unpinning.
Hm, the older ones seem ununpinnable. Okay, no big deal.
@msh210 I suggest unpinning the more recent ones, even though not yet handled. We can find them when we want them.
6:27 PM
@IsaacMoses I don't see the harm in having them temporarily pinned for easy location. The boldface "please promote" link is visible anyway (for me. For others?)
@msh210 But is it temporary?
@IsaacMoses Based on my experience today, I guess that if they're fixed fast enough they'll still be unpinnable.
^^ suggested hagada edits
@IsaacMoses Okay?
@msh210 Cool. Thanks
@IsaacMoses Welcs.
6:48 PM
I've prayed in my sleep before, but I was instructed to repeat it as it didn't count. — Seth J 33 mins ago
@SethJ Reminded me of this.
@msh210 sheesh.
@SethJ Yeah. I first of the phenomenon from a relative of mine who's a teacher and tertiary-yeshiva advisor in a high school. One of her students/advisees/something texts in her sleep. She (the kid) sends a total of thousands of texts a day.
@SethJ Out of curiosity, did you pray in the middle of sleeping (just happened to say shacharis at 6 am before waking) or sleep in the middle of praying?
This is the coolest thing in the world... I love it! — Joel Spolsky 12 mins ago
@msh210 Not sure what you're referring to
6:57 PM
@IsaacMoses The URL. google.im.
An unusual place to visit for Pesach.
...though I imagine there's a Chabad.
@msh210 Oh. Hmm. Indeed. That's odd. We shall have to solicit a trip report from WAF.
@IsaacMoses woo hoo!
1.5 Kviews
@spolsky Oh I was going to just roll my own by picking featured StackOverflow entries for the Four Questions.
7:02 PM
@msh210 "My matza won't compile"
@msh210 "On all other nights, this code works, but on this night, it fails with an ambiguous error code."
7:17 PM
Anyone else having a problem of notifications not going away?
@SethJ Not I.
Okay, I must go.
And chag kasher v'sameach.
@msh210 You, too!
.@spolsky Seder night is hard to enjoy once you hear/read http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4191
Me, I'd be surprised that anyone finds that surprising. Surely everyone knows the Exodus myth is ahistorical?
A: Archeological proof of Exodus?

Isaac MosesSee this article by R' Gil Student. He seems to be very familiar with the relevant literature, and he "believe[s] (with perfect faith) that 600,000 men and their families left Egypt," but it's clear to him that if there's any archaeological evidence of the Exodus, it's not great or conclusive. In...

7:57 PM
@msh210 You too.
@msh210 And that.
@TRiG You're in the wrong place, my friend.
@SethJ Cut him some slack. He's responding to a tweet that someone responded to Joel with re: our doc, not trying to start an argument
@IsaacMoses Oh, I know. And I'm not trying to argue. I'm just pointing out that, no, not everyone believes it to be ahistorical.
@SethJ ;)
2 hours later…
10:21 PM
Q: Self-disciplined deletion of a good answer on the wrong question

Seth JLast night I discovered that once upon a time I totally misread a question and gave an answer that just didn't fit the question that was being asked. I know, I know, how could that even happen? But I got a bunch of votes. Part of me thinks that I should be self disciplined, earn that disciplined...


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