talk.tryitonline.net

Andrew Savinykh

00:19

@WheatWizard chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/44255?m=34932506#34932506

Wheat Wizard

@AndrewSavinykh Thanks

Andrew Savinykh

@WheatWizard It's a bit different from what is described on esolang

Wheat Wizard

@AndrewSavinykh yeah I was noticing so strange behavior

is there anything in particular?

Andrew Savinykh

@WheatWizard comapre the esolang page and this: web.archive.org/web/20060621185740/http://www4.ncsu.edu/…

There are a few discrepancies.

I believe that the latter matches the implementation

@WheatWizard, FYI, I've been putting orphaned languages that TIO has here: github.com/TryItOnline For Glypho it's github.com/TryItOnline/glypho

Wheat Wizard

@AndrewSavinykh Thats a good idea. Thanks for doing that.

Conor O'Brien

03:22

@Dennis could you pull chain? I've added a -u or --utf8 option to run in utf8.

also, is it possible to add K to TIO?

Andrew Savinykh

@ConorO'Brien isn't it already on TIO?

Conor O'Brien

@AndrewSavinykh sure enough. I tried /nexus/k haha oops

Andrew Savinykh

or is it a different K?

Conor O'Brien

It's the same I think

Andrew Savinykh

tio.run/nexus/k-ok and tio.run/nexus/k-kona

Conor O'Brien

03:29

ya. I was confused because there's no tio.run/nexus/k and I usually use languages by typing it in the url bar :P

Andrew Savinykh

04:03

@Adám there seems to be a new version of APL dyalog for linux, do you think TIO needs to update? cc:@Dennis

Andrew Savinykh

04:32

So, I wrote brand new setup notes for TIO here github.com/TryItOnline/TioSetup If anyone wants to proof read and correct my English, they are most welcome. The/a articles do not exists in my native language, so I often skip them where they are due, just because I do not know any better.

Conor O'Brien

what is your native language, out of curiosity?

Andrew Savinykh

russian

Conor O'Brien

oh, fun! I want to learn russian sometime

under Domain registration and certificates, did you mean "within" instead of "withing"?

Andrew Savinykh

@ConorO'Brien you can hit me with any question if you get around to doing this ;)

Conor O'Brien

thx :D

Andrew Savinykh

04:45

@ConorO'Brien certainly!

Dennis

@ConorO'Brien Done. I've changed the wrapper and everything seems to be working.

@AndrewSavinykh It's a patch, so need is probably not the right word, but I'll update it tomorrow just in case.

Conor O'Brien

05:09

@Dennis thanks!

ATaco

05:54

@Dennis Can you please Pull RProgN 2? I decided to actually work on it again.

mınxomaτ

@Dennis What's the current spec of the arena server and what's the daily avg requests/s?

Dennis

@ATaco Done.

ATaco

Did you pull 1 or 2..?

Dennis

@mınxomaτ It's a $5 DO droplet, so one E5-2650L core and 512 MiB of RAM. There were 30034 requests last week, so 4290 per day.

@ATaco 2

ATaco

06:10

Just took a moment to update, but now it's erroring. Gotta do some bugfixing it seems.

Oh, I see that error.

mınxomaτ

@Dennis So with 4290 what's is the resource usage like? I suspect the CPU usage is at least "high".

ATaco

(Don't make an empty arg, it crashes things)

(I also forgot to actually build it)

Can you do another pull please?

Dennis

@mınxomaτ Fairly low, actually. It spikes every now and then, but the average is about 0.30.

Actually, I counted the number of requests to the backend. Forgot about caching...

mınxomaτ

No that's fine. I was just interested in the actual requests

Dennis

@ATaco Great, now everything's broken. :P

ATaco

06:18

Well that was fast

What kind of everything's broken?

Dennis

21 Feb 06:17:04 UTC rprogn-2 - FAIL (2 sec)
21 Feb 06:17:04 UTC Expected: Hello, World!
21 Feb 06:17:04 UTC Got: Could not find or access the file "cfg.txt"
cfg.txt (No such file or directory)
21 Feb 06:17:04 UTC Debug Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NullPointerException
        at config.Config.<init>(Config.java:36)
        at main.Main.main(Main.java:32)

ATaco

Well, that's interesting.

What code are you running?

Hold on, Gotta switch to the mobile, Wont be able to make changes from there.

Dennis

@ATaco "Hello, World!"

ATaco

Are you expecting with the newline?

Dennis

You didn't disable cache, did you?

ATaco

06:24

Nope

Dennis

Try again.

ATaco

That's uh, something alright

Oh gosh

I compiled the wrong project

Well, I'll be on my laptop in 2 and ill recompile with the correct project

Dennis

Alright.

ATaco

06:41

@Dennis Done, pull attempt no.3

Dennis

In an unsurprising turn of events, compiling the correct project made everything better. :P

ATaco

Yay

Dennis

I'll be going to bed now. Let me know if there are more updates and I'll pull them when I get up.

ATaco

Alright

Adám

07:00

@AndrewSavinykh I don't think that's necessary. There are some performance enhancements, and some fixes that do not relate to TIO (they deal with GUIs). The only interesting fix is Nonce error in {⊂⍵}⌸x if x is floating point. Don't expect any major changes until the release of 16.0 this summer, which TIO should definitely upgrade to ASAP.

Andrew Savinykh

07:49

@Adám this summer is about to end ;)

Adám

@AndrewSavinykh Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot you're upside down.

mınxomaτ

09:24

@AndrewSavinykh Reading through the config scripts for the setup: I can't help but think that a (or two) simple docker containers would be much, much easier than a patchwork of scripts. Especially considering you need to edit any system change into the setup scripts manually. Or am I missing something? I'm just talking about the setup here. With a container it would simply boil down to pulling the container instead of running through the whole setup.

Andrew Savinykh

09:43

@mınxomaτ Can you explain this better please? You still need to install stuff inside the container, no?

mınxomaτ

You use the existing scripts to build a docker image. If a new server is to be deployed, they don't have to run any setup apart from running the built image.

Andrew Savinykh

@mınxomaτ Let me see if I understand this correctly. We are building new server very infrequently. On the other hand we pulling new version of languages regular. These language updates require an image rebuild every time anyway (happens a few times a week), building a new server only is required once in a while. To me it feels like it's more work in the net, not less.

mınxomaτ

The development is handled inside the dockerfile, which contains the difference between the base image and the final image. Suppose now someone wants to setup TIO, they have to docker run the final image, but they don't have to run the actual setup procedure. Adding to the simpler workflow, this also mitigates all the memory issues mentioned, since after running a setup once, it never has to be run again. Think of it as a system-wide git repo if you will.

Andrew Savinykh

@mınxomaτ the same patchwork of scripts then will migrate to docker?

I understand points about using the image vs running the scripts

I'm just clarifying the rest

mınxomaτ

Only once. Because if you have the new image, let's call it status quo, the scripts are done and never needed again. Then you stack new iterations of development on the previous image. Each dockerfile then only contains what improvements your have done. Changes to the filesystem are tracked as with git. This way, as with git, you can restore a previous complete server config at once, without running a setup.

It still makes sense to track the dockerfile separately in git, of course.

Andrew Savinykh

09:56

@mınxomaτ Sorry, I'm not sure I understand. I though that you build an image from a dockerfile, and the dockerfile then would have to contain all the scripts in there. If it does not, there is nothing to build the image from

And if it's not the dockerfile which is the source of truth but an image, then where do I store the image? I'm guessing they are massive.

mınxomaτ

@AndrewSavinykh An example evolution would be this: Fedora image -> big dockerfile with all the current scripts -> final TIO image. After that the scripts can be discarded. If something is modified, only the modifications are what's in the dockerfile, so the future becomes: TIO image -> dockerfile with current improvements -> TIO image 2.0.

@AndrewSavinykh At the docker hub hub.docker.com

Basically a GitHub for docker images.

Docker is not virtualization. It only separates the parts of the OS accessed by your application in virtual contexts. A docker image doesn't contain the whole operating system :)

Andrew Savinykh

@mınxomaτ Okay, let's go through the following scenario, to see if it suites. Let's assume I have a production server and a development server (we do not yet, but we are discussing it). Let's assume I update a language on the development server and want to push changes to production. Will docker flow support this, or does this have to be a separate flow? My gut feeling it has to be separate because refreshing a docker image probably cannot be done incrementally

mınxomaτ

@AndrewSavinykh That's the whole point of docker.

Make changes, run docker build on dev and docker pull on any prod servers.

Andrew Savinykh

@mınxomaτ also, do you know if docker and SeLinux are compatible with each other? Dennis relying heavily on SeLinux, and I do not know of containerization can get in the way of it

mınxomaτ

SElinux is docker aware: projectatomic.io/docs/docker-and-selinux access.redhat.com/documentation/en-us/…

Andrew Savinykh

10:05

@mınxomaτ how does this work though? docker build will result in an image, how docker pull knows what parts of the image is missing?

@mınxomaτ is there any VPS provider support required for docker to work?

mınxomaτ

@AndrewSavinykh It checks the update on docker hub. This is bigger than a simple diff of course, but it's only meant for server configuration. For tiny non-server related changes you might mount a symlink to a git repo outside of the container.

@AndrewSavinykh AFAIK KVM-virtualized VPSs support Docker.

Andrew Savinykh

@mınxomaτ how are differences handled? For example different installation will have different domain names, different certificates, different private keys, etc?

mınxomaτ

DO e.g. has a native method for deploying docker images, so you don't even have to run a prod server, the prod server is built right from docker hub. On updates simply rebuild: digitalocean.com/products/one-click-apps/docker

Andrew Savinykh

@mınxomaτ can you give me an example of server vs non-server, so I understand what you mean?

@mınxomaτ that's docker on ubuntu, unfortunately

mınxomaτ

@AndrewSavinykh Anything non-sensitive lives in the container. Upon deployment you need to run certbot once.

Andrew Savinykh

10:14

right so each rebuild, I'll need to update certificates, update httpd configurations, update private key for arena...

mınxomaτ

You don't need to update http configs.

Andrew Savinykh

@mınxomaτ they are domain dependant

mınxomaτ

So? You can keep the FQDNs in the config. They won't be any use without the right server :)

And you can use IP-based security instead of keys.

All this is just an idea to keep in mind in the future. I don't think the development is stable enough (much less the actual server hosting or config) to warrant a major change.

Andrew Savinykh

@mınxomaτ It's an interesting idea, thank you, I'll certainly keep it in mind, docker is something that I'd be quite interested having an experience with. But I'm not entirely convinced on the benefits for TIO. If you'd like you can try and sell this idea to @Dennis when he is awake tomorrow (today), and/or make a proof of concept that we all could play with. Even without that - thank you for the contribution ;)

mınxomaτ

I think Dennis has enough to test and play with for at least a month's worth :D

Andrew Savinykh

10:22

We are currently talking about a "build server" but we do not know yet how we are going to implement it. Here is the problem we are trying to solve: very soon we will have 2 load balanced arena and pulling a language will become a bigger nuisance. We need a way to pull and test once, and then when happy deploy on both arenas.

If you have any thoughts about this, I'll be happy to hear ;)

mınxomaτ

That's why, even if SW looks good from a price point, you should move everything to linode. One arena server should have a small web server installed on it, instead of using SSH (an unscalabe idea in the first place) to answer requests. Now all the backend needs to do is have a text file with the IP addresses for balancing.

You have one "mother" arena server where you push your changes to. If you are happy, you simple go to the other arena server(s), delete their disk and clone the one from the "mother". There's nothing on the arena servers that should be unique. No domains, keys or anythi…

The arena nodes store a secret (a hash or something) that only them and the backend node knows about (to prevent rogue requests from other servers on the internet), but that's of course the same for every arena node.

Linode also has a dumbed-down clone of docker where you can mix HDD images and setup scripts to deploy servers. Storing such images is free.

Andrew Savinykh

@mınxomaτ Can you comment why the SSH idea is unscaleable?

mınxomaτ

You need to exchange keys.

Andrew Savinykh

@mınxomaτ is not TLS (https) exchanging keys all the time?

mınxomaτ

10:37

You don't need TLS for the local networking. You can interface with the arena linode via it's private LAN IP and firewall block all other access. (which you also only need to configure once).

Andrew Savinykh

arenas currently do not have anything secret. at all. they store a public key for backend, but that's, well, public

mınxomaτ

@AndrewSavinykh That's backwards.

If you have e.g. two arenas and need another, clone any one of them. Now you just add the private IP to the list on the backend. You never even need to access the (new) arena.

Andrew Savinykh

@mınxomaτ sorry my point was that https is quite scaleable from what I see, so why ssh is not scalable in comparison?

mınxomaτ

I never said anything about HTTPS?

Andrew Savinykh

@mınxomaτ that's how SSH works. you have private key on the client and public key on the server. If it's backwards then SSH is backwards.

mınxomaτ

10:41

@AndrewSavinykh It's backwards because you treat the arena as the server. It isn't. The server balances load across compute nodes (arenas), the public key should be on the arena of anything.

Andrew Savinykh

@mınxomaτ you did not. You said that SSH idea is not scalable because of the key exchange. I'm saying that HTTPS does the key excahnge and remains scaleable, so I would like to know what makes SSH unscalable

mınxomaτ

HTTPS is not even applicable to my point.

SSH makes no sense if you have a public node that does load balancing over private (arena) nodes. You already have a secure channel by default. Just transfer over HTTP. There is nothing you have to do on the arena nodes other than creating and deleting them.

Andrew Savinykh

@mınxomaτ that's what I said. that the public key is on the arena. Did you read it differently?

mınxomaτ

I think we are getting stuck on this point.

Andrew Savinykh

@mınxomaτ agreed

mınxomaτ

10:44

My point is: With my recommendation you never, ever have to exchange any keys, secrets or certs between the arena and the balancer. You never have to setup domains or anything unique for arena nodes. You push changes to one, and scale to multiple if you need to. Simply add or remove the LAN IP from the load balancer's list.

Let me make a diagram :)

Andrew Savinykh

@mınxomaτ that makes sense. Dennis needs to work out how to install a proper kernel on linode. May be he has already.

mınxomaτ

We figured that out already. Search the transscript for "fast link"

Andrew Savinykh

@mınxomaτ did you end up giving him the fastlink?

mınxomaτ

We are not even close to that. Update in ~1 week.

Andrew Savinykh

So he said that he needs a vanilla Fedora 25 Server installation. Can we achieve that somehow?

@mınxomaτ that is, how can I spawn a clean Fedora 25 Server with standard kernel?

mınxomaτ

10:55

@AndrewSavinykh Yes. The wheels are already in motion. Dennis is currently testing OVH's Fedora image. I'm meanwhile preparing the same image in KVM. But this will take some time. Expect an update in ca. one week.

@AndrewSavinykh By using full disk virtualization and bringing your own KVM disk, or by recompiling the kernel. Both things I'll test soon on linode.

Andrew Savinykh

@mınxomaτ Oh I see, so you are working on it. I misunderstood you when you first said 1 week, I thought you were waiting on Dennis, and was wondering if I could do some testing in the meanwhile

mınxomaτ