Constructive Feedback

The Count

04:20

@TheGreatDuck Well that is certainly understandable.

TheGreatDuck

05:16

@TheCount How so?

The Count

15:25

@TheGreatDuck Like... it's easy to get caught up in it...

amWhy

20:13

@TheGreatDuck The question you asked, which was auto/deleted, had -3 score, and is as follows: "I would like to know whether or not the fractional part function known as modulo can be expressed in the form $f(|g(x)|)$? I'm trying to see whether or not periodic functions are a subset of absolute value functions (I highly doubt thats an apt term for the form I gave). And the comment you seem to speak of was from Crostul (+2 comment votes):

"What about f= the identity function, and g= the modulo function?".The only other comments, following that by Costul, are from you, and I can copy them here. I see nothing in Costul's comment that is dismissive of you question.

TheGreatDuck

it's possible he deleted it

or edited

there was something along the lines of "what exactly are you asking for as this makes no sense"

but he probably removed it due to my speedy reply saying that was a good answer.

amWhy

Could it have been from someone else? Anyway, I don't like it when any user is dismissive (or rude) toward another user, just as I told you yesterday about a comment you made to a newerish user. I'm just trying to provide you with every bit of detail from the deleted post, and certainly don't condone anyone's rudeness.

TheGreatDuck

i can see the deleted post

amWhy

Who is Superb John on the "question ban"?

TheGreatDuck

it was in the same comment

-3

Q: I want to ask question, but have been prevented from doing so due to downvotes. Can this be overridden?

Initially the main mistake was mine I had asked some questions when I was new to this site I received many down votes and due we which the site stopped me from asking questions further So I started to give answers to question and got some fair reputations. It has been a long time. So when wil...

he has too many low quality posts

so I figured that even if I'm not perfect (by far nobody is), I might as well clean up their horrible English to help em out.

they seem relatively new so I figured I'd cut them some slack and fix their posts

can't solve the context issues or the bad reasoning in one or two posts, but I can at least format into an intelligent argument/question so it's no longer of that low of a quality. They can fix the reasoning themselves and figure out the problem (since I pointed them out).

amWhy

20:23

That's a great idea! Have you talked more with superb Jhon about this? Perhaps you or I can invite him here so you can explain how you hope to help him out?

TheGreatDuck

i left comments criticizing some of his posts

he hasn't responded yet

go ahead and invite him

he's probably inactive atm

amWhy

I just think letting him know that you're willing to help him will be a big boost for his resolve to work harder, his confidence (knowing someone here's "got is back", etc). I know I experienced a profound sense of disconnection with this site over the course of almost a year...I spent a good amount of time on the sidelines, seeing how things work. I give so much credit, especially to newish askers, because it requires some guts to persist in asking questions.

TheGreatDuck

well I am very persistent

XD

Simply Beautiful Art

I made it alive!

amWhy

@TheGreatDuck @SimplyBeautifulArt I left this comment in the meta question from @superb jhon: "Come in and visit "concrete feedback, a chat-room. At least two of us would like to welcome you and help you move forward from here!"

Simply Beautiful Art

20:34

lol

amWhy

You'd be a great help, too, @Simply, if you're interested, or even if you keep the user in mind, in case you run into him. This was superb jhon's meta post

TheGreatDuck

cool

that's great!

Simply Beautiful Art

wait, what? I'm oddly confuzzled

TheGreatDuck

i see a few of them have been closed for various reasons

I'll probably work on those next

Simply Beautiful Art

oh, that...

You want me...to bring him...here?

TheGreatDuck

20:36

if I see any that are due to poor language skills (such as unclear questions), I'll let you know @amWhy so you can choose to reopen if you want.

@SimplyBeautifulArt we're editing and fixing his posts. I'm working on his questions atm. If you want to, you can go through they're answers and fix any problems you see.

This is the generic message I've been using for the edit summary

Simply Beautiful Art

oh... ok. Well, that's a weird job

amWhy

@SimplyBeautifulArt I've given him a link to this chat in the comment I left on his recent meta post.

Simply Beautiful Art

ok

TheGreatDuck

"Fixing a user's posts up as they requested to help remove a question ban. //meta.math.stackexchange.com/questions/25763/i-want-to-ask-question-but-have-be‌en-prevented-from-doing-so-due-to-downvotes"

there

im sure you can add the http:

:p

mostly, @SimplyBeautifulArt i figured we could all kinda chat in here instead of being in two different rooms. I see you're friends with @amWhy

amWhy

@SimplyBeautifulArt I've suggested all along that we invite superb jhon to this chat, to discuss with him, how we can help most, e.g., what you hope to do, @TheGreatDuck, and how else to help. It's never a good idea to go behind a users back.

TheGreatDuck

20:39

plus, I thought maybe you'd want to help.

Simply Beautiful Art

Hm, interesting

@VinokanthVelu Hello random feller

TheGreatDuck

@amWhy I'm hardly going behind their back. The first time through I left criticizing posts giving them advice and then a little later seeing no change I went through and fixed the very bad posts if only because it is impractical to ignore the bad posts if I see a way to fix the wording. Plus, I left a post on the meta thread.

I mean, the user is clearly wanting this ban gone and is having trouble. If they don't like the edits, I have no problem with them reverting every single one.

though if it hurts the site I cannot be blamed for someone later on reporting the reversion as intentional vandalism.

amWhy

If you can help by editing to correct English, great. Don't guess about anything you might think he means. Ask in comments what you think he means, and ask for confirmation, or clarification.

TheGreatDuck

(that's not passive-aggressive.)

Simply Beautiful Art

@amWhy Is there a "how to post good answers" thing?

TheGreatDuck

20:43

Oh by all means, most of it is just removing all caps stuff, making the mathjax proper, and changing slight word choices to make it more precise. Most of the time, I just take their list of 3 or 4 math statements with no explanation and just wrap a little sentence or fix grammar errors in their sentences so it sounds more like a formal proof. I never change their reasoning and if I don't understand the reasoning I leave a small note in a comment and don't change that part at all.

amWhy

That's a "good question" @SimplyBeautifulArt, what is a good answer!

Simply Beautiful Art

lol

amWhy

@TheGreatDuck That's all good, then.

Simply Beautiful Art

Yeah, I've noticed this user does use all caps excessively

amWhy

That is a good question, though @Simply.

TheGreatDuck

20:45

in fact

I don't have full edit priviledges

so my edits are screened by reviewers

that's why I'm being so on top of it. If there's an issue with the edit, I'm sure the reviewers will take notice. Though I still be very careful.

Simply Beautiful Art

mhm, ok then

amWhy

Well, I'll keep my eyes out in the review queues for you edits, or you can link me to specific posts here. Don't worry so much about the edits, that is just a function of being below 2000K rep.

TheGreatDuck

of course

i know that

Simply Beautiful Art

@amWhy I can't find a good answer meta post. Should I make one?

@TheGreatDuck Need your 500 rep back?

TheGreatDuck

nope simply

I think I might be learning some neat stuff soon that might let me answer higher questions

i have to do a little bit of pretend research like to prep for a thesis without doing so

amWhy

20:49

@TheGreatDuck It takes two users to review and accept an edit. But if you link me to any edit you want to make, I can unilaterally accept by "accept and edit" which gives you 2 points and immediately renders the edit/

Simply Beautiful Art

lol

TheGreatDuck

been reading about different types of derivatives

Simply Beautiful Art

Lol, cheater @amWhy

TheGreatDuck

apparently there is a real number order derivative

Simply Beautiful Art

@TheGreatDuck Nice

Fractional calculus?

TheGreatDuck

20:50

yup

just saw it last night mind you

amWhy

@SimplyBeautifulArt Sure!

TheGreatDuck

I'm sure I'll figure it out... eventually.

:p

Simply Beautiful Art

Ah, well, I know some fractional calculus if you need me to look at things with you

math.stackexchange.com/help/how-to-answer

@amWhy I don't fully like the help page description of good answer

TheGreatDuck

-1

Q: Can you Eliminate (x)??

Eliminate $x$ from these two equations $$M=\tan x+\cot x$$ $$N=\sec x-\cos x$$ I got this from my friend about a week ago and I tried this for a long time but still unable to do it.

trigonometry

amWhy

@SimplyBeautifulArt Do you have a quick link to it?

TheGreatDuck

20:53

@SimplyBeautifulArt nah. It's more just like "read what interests you and see if anything special comes to mind". I don't have to understand everything fully and rigorously. It's just a little 2-3 week homework in the honors class I have to take.

though if I have any issues later on with it I'll be sure to ask.

Simply Beautiful Art

@amWhy math.stackexchange.com/help/how-to-answer

TheGreatDuck

to be honest

I've always found those pages to be absolute junk from day one

they were never helpful for me

Simply Beautiful Art

@TheGreatDuck (pretty much same)

TheGreatDuck

what bothers me too

and someone needs to bring this up

if someone votes to close as duplicate

it's not "is this post a duplicate, yes or no"

it's "is it a duplicate. If not, explicitly edit to state WHY it's not a duplicate."

which is silly imo

Simply Beautiful Art

@TheGreatDuck You know you can ignore it

TheGreatDuck

20:56

if a post isn't a duplicate it just... isn't a duplicate.

Simply Beautiful Art

and no one will ever care

TheGreatDuck

i know that. I just mean that the banner looks cheesy and stupid. XD

Simply Beautiful Art

lol

TheGreatDuck

to me, I would think "it's kind of stupid to edit about why this isn't totally irrelevant question. That's just clogging the post with junk."

my methodology is that posts should only have enough material to clearly and concisely understand them.

Simply Beautiful Art

@TheGreatDuck Say, do you have a definitional of a fractional derivative yet?

TheGreatDuck

20:58

i looked it up on wikipedia after reading a couple articles cause I was curious

it uses the fractional integral

Simply Beautiful Art

lol, that's how I started

TheGreatDuck

which is a nasty looking thing

Simply Beautiful Art

Cauchy's integral?

lol

TheGreatDuck

probably. I don't remember off hand. It was just last night.

Simply Beautiful Art

coolios

you are going to need fractional factorials btw

amWhy

20:59

I think there **is** some good stuff there, but perhaps not enough? There are likely tips that can be more specific wrt answering (tag1), answering (tag 2), etc. But I do like Answer well-asked questions

Not all questions can or should be answered here. Save yourself some frustration and avoid trying to answer questions which...

...are unclear or lacking specific details that can uniquely identify the problem.
...solicit opinions rather than facts.
...have already been asked and answered many times before.

TheGreatDuck

@amWhy in case it wasn't clear I fixed up math.stackexchange.com/questions/1930089/can-you-eliminate-x. Could you check to see if the edit is worthy for reopening?

well yeah

it's more the "how to ask" one that irks me.

because ultimately is self-references itself if you haven't noticed

it basically says that a well asked question is clear and whatnot

but it never actually says how to write a clear question for instance

or like, how to add context to a question you think of off-hand that you didn't get from anywhere (and hence it has not context).

for instance

if I thought of a tricky integral

Simply Beautiful Art

yeah, I think we all agree on that

TheGreatDuck

and asked about it

Simply Beautiful Art

@TheGreatDuck Like Cauchy's repeated integral formula proof?

TheGreatDuck

i don't know that

i meant like

Simply Beautiful Art

21:04

lol

TheGreatDuck

floor(x)x*tan(x)

Simply Beautiful Art

if didn't know it, better reason to ask

but ok, fair enough

TheGreatDuck

wait a second...

that's a actually a really good one actually

i should probably think about it for a while. That would require complex analysis in the alternate system if I used the method I prefer.

well actually not that far. No need to think of it that deeply with common integrals. XD

that level of though only is needed in differential equations as all the C_n terms become tricky eliminate into constants.

@SimplyBeautifulArt i mean I don't know if it either.

Simply Beautiful Art

mhm

@amWhy We could try something like "keep the answer simple and to the point, beautiful on the side, and treat it like an art"

XD

TheGreatDuck

I see what you did there.

but no

the real thing that needs to be stressed is better math/writing style

for instance

1. all math should be in mathjax

Simply Beautiful Art

21:11

(so true)

@TheGreatDuck Except numerical computations given in a list of 50+ numbers

that stuff should not go in mathjax, because it breaks the whole page XD

TheGreatDuck

2. all math should be written within complete grammatically correct English sentences. I.e. "$x=2$" is bad style whereas "Because $x$ is a prime number and is even, we can state that $x=2$".

Simply Beautiful Art

But you started the sentence with "Because"

I would say "since"

@JyrkiLahtonen Heyo mate

we're trying to make a guideline to good answers

amWhy

@SimplyBeautifulArt Well, of course we know that ;-), but not all folks in math consider art (or philosophy) rigorous enough. I think there are primary points that a good answer must satisfy (to be good), and bonus points, whether it be in the pedagogy that nails the "bull's eye" for the question at hand, given the OP's status/level, or simplicity, etc.

Simply Beautiful Art

which we think the current one isn't very good math.stackexchange.com/help/how-to-answer

TheGreatDuck

3. The only exception to these guidelines should be in the case of either blatant examples of what not to do or when calculations are massive (such as in the case of simulations).

@SimplyBeautifulArt because is a valid start for a sentence.

Simply Beautiful Art

21:14

@amWhy Yes, it is a matter of context and whatnot.

TheGreatDuck

I've used it many times over the years

Simply Beautiful Art

:-/ oh, ok then

lol, doesn't mean its correct.

TheGreatDuck

they probably just stress not to use it as it can become abused

but I'm a math major not an English major so don't quote me on that.

Simply Beautiful Art

lol, ok

amWhy

Yikes, all this talking makes it hard for me to stay on point! :-) @Jyrki Hope all is good!

Simply Beautiful Art

21:15

lol

TheGreatDuck

@SimplyBeautifulArt actually the proper term in mathematics is not "context and whatnot" it is the concept of what is accepted as "previous knowledge" within a proof.

technically all math problems are proofs of a sort

Simply Beautiful Art

-_-

Not all answers

for example, hints

which do not need to follow grammar :-)

TheGreatDuck

i mean that all true solutions are proofs

actually

hints can still use proper grammar

they just do not need to solve the problem entirely

how is a hint at all a good excuse to use bad mathematical formatting?

Simply Beautiful Art

Hm...I do not think hints are mentioned on the tour page or the help center

TheGreatDuck

that's not my point though

compare these two hints about factoring (4x^2 + a^6)

Simply Beautiful Art

21:18

Huh? oh. Hints are incomplete thoughts

so they needn't be complete sentences

:D My logic

TheGreatDuck

hint: (b - c)(b+c) = (b^2 - c^2)

vs

amWhy

Okay, I'm stepping back...let y'all talk...

Simply Beautiful Art

@amWhy What? You can join in lol

TheGreatDuck

Here is a hint. You should try using the binomial formula $(b - c)(b+c) = (b^2 - c^2)$.

the second sounds better does it not?

@amWhy minor curiosity. what level of math are you at?

Simply Beautiful Art

@TheGreatDuck But both are faulty, since the problem is a sum, not a difference

TheGreatDuck

21:21

grumble grumble. cant make a type without kids noticing these days

that was meant to be a difference

i typed wrong

Simply Beautiful Art

:-)

You get a C+ for effort

TheGreatDuck

regardless of the accuracy of the hints

Simply Beautiful Art

**pats @TheGreatDuck on the back **

TheGreatDuck

the second one looks better formatting wise does it not?

thank you

:-)

Simply Beautiful Art

sure I suppose

TheGreatDuck

21:23

my point is that writing a post in proper style is not the same as giving a full answer vs a hint

Simply Beautiful Art

But this would be my hint:

Hint:$$a^2-b^2=(a+b)(a-b)$$References:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Difference_of_two_squares

TheGreatDuck

and see

I wouldn't like that hint at all.

i think that is bad style

helpful, yes

proper math formatting.

Simply Beautiful Art

Some people like the fact that there is a reference though

And you'd be surprised

on the things Wikipedia has

TheGreatDuck

not that

the incomplete sentences

Simply Beautiful Art

well, whatever

TheGreatDuck

21:26

shrugs

Simply Beautiful Art

but the second point should be references and research

TheGreatDuck

it's just my personal preferences

Simply Beautiful Art

mention that google provides good things

TheGreatDuck

well....

references aren't as important in math

my argument there is that a proof depends on previous knowledge

Simply Beautiful Art

@TheGreatDuck Of course not, but an answer with references beats an answer without.

TheGreatDuck

21:27

as such, one should merely need good reasoning to solve it

one shouldn't need references unless the answer is unsolvable at the asker's knowledge level.

understand my point?

Simply Beautiful Art

No, I believe that if there are good references, they should be used

TheGreatDuck

you miss the point

given a^2 is even

prove a is even

you don't need references

you only need proof by contradiction

Simply Beautiful Art

Ofc not

TheGreatDuck

and the definition of "even"

the same can apply to other questions

amWhy

@SimplyBeautifulArt The guideline there at least gives a place to start.... sets the bar at a standard above an answer generated by some folks simply walking in from the street and giving it a stab. I think the points can be further elucidated, but I do think that correctness of answer, its success in addressing/answering specifically the asker's question using the tools the asker has available (when specified by asker),

and whether the OP does, indeed, understand the answer enough to follow up with questions. There's lots of ways to put icing on that cake, but we do need a cake to ice in the first place!

TheGreatDuck

21:29

my concern is using references when not needed.

brb

Simply Beautiful Art

But my point is that I can provide an asymptotic expansion to calculate $\sum_{n=1}^{10^{100}}\frac1{\sqrt n}$ out a few digits in moments

but I'll probably need to reference the Euler Maclaurin formula and/or the Riemann zeta function

@TheGreatDuck Ah, well, it never hurts

@amWhy Wait, I did not get all of that

Are you saying that we should not worry as much?

Well, this is how I currently see it.

1. Answering good questions often gives good answers. Likewise, bad questions should be avoided from answering unless you can provide an answer that outweighs the question.

2. We recommend you use English, as it is the language most users can read. If they can't read it, they can't like it.

amWhy

@SimplyBeautifulArt whether the OP understands enough so that even if there's something they don't quite grasp in the answer, they can identify it and ask it. It's always good to give an answer that bridges the gap between an askers current understanding and where they may need to eventually be, by offering a challenge, or suggesting that, given the answer, they try to solve, prove the rest, but offering to answer follow up questions they may have (in comments.)

Simply Beautiful Art

3. Refrain from making the fonts hard on the eyes. All caps, bold font, colored text, etc. should be avoided except for emphasis

4. Understand the question. The deeper you can understand what is being asked, the deeper you can provide an answer, and that is almost always a good thing.

5. Stay on topic and think your answer all the way through before posting. Hints, for example, that are only dead-end paths will not make your answer useful.

@amWhy does number 4 look good for that?

amWhy

That's all great stuff... I do also advise that answerers answer with the same level of respect for the asker as would be given a good friend.

@SimplyBeautifulArt Very good, indeed!

Simply Beautiful Art

6. Be courteous. Treat everyone on an equal playing field, regardless of whether or not you may think they should already understand something.

7. Watch the tags. Questions with tags you are familiar with are more likely to be answer-able by you, and it also helps cut down 'question searching time'.

8. Learn from the comments and read other answers. It is usually the case that you are not the only one answering, and by learning from others, you can return the knowledge to produce better answers in the future.

9. Ask Google. Google often knows the answer, or related answers. If MSE doesn't pop up, by all means take the internet and use it to the fullest.

10. We recommend pictures sometimes. While not necessary, it is like icing on a cake, and often times a picture is what was truly needed to answer the question. Personally crafted images and Googled images alike are good.

Vinokanth Velu

21:46

@SimplyBeautifulArt Hey man

Simply Beautiful Art

Back to point 4.

If you don't understand something about the question, ask. A clearer understanding of the question saves misguided answers from happening

@StefanPerko @VinokanthVelu @quid Hello. I'm trying to provide a guide to making good answer.

11. If you think something out of context is needed in your answer, reference it. This helps avoids confusion to readers and clarifies between things that may be similar.

quid

Interesting idea. I am not sure re 10. It could be misunderstood.

Specifically "Googled images" can be risky in that there might be licenses problems.

Simply Beautiful Art

12. KIS. Keep it simple. Unnecessarily complicated answers are less likely to be understood or fundamentally impactive to the OP.

@quid Back to point 10. We recommend using pictures to convey messages sometimes, as they can often times be more explanatory than words and numbers alone.

13. Use MathJax. Answers that don't use MathJax or use it incorrectly are subject not only to downvotes, but often times an unhappy crowd.

quid

It's better. But I think it is overstated.

Simply Beautiful Art

Well, whatever. I'll continue this later

amWhy

21:55

Very good ideas, @Simply. Like @quid, wrt"pictures" or "images" it depends on the question (is it about graphing, or will a graph, or truth table, help in this particular case, and if so, sure add it), but when used, the answer should not be a "link only" or "image only" answer. Give enough of a description as you can about a graph, a Venn diagram, a truth-table, etc... to render them Icing on the already baked cake.

Most questions do not need images/pictures, and any links used should be kept to a minimum.

@SimplyBeautifulArt With a little fine-tuning, you may very well have a nice replacement for the current "help-section guide to writing a good answer"!

Simply Beautiful Art

22:30

:D

TheGreatDuck

23:16

I think that we should make a section describing good styling guidelines

math should be written in paragraphs and senteces

math is not a language

we should at least advise to do that. It is not that hard to do really. Takes maybe a little more effort and in the end it makes answers and questions clearer for future readers.

@SimplyBeautifulArt I don't know if this is true or not for fractional differential equations. Does the method of the auxilliary equation still work in general for linear equations?

Simply Beautiful Art

23:44

@TheGreatDuck No, since the fractional derivative of $e^x$ fails to be $e^x$.

Transcript for

$Mathematics$ Constructive Feedback