@AlanMunn why aren't they both contributing to the object?

@AlanMunn but what makes them null? why 'null'?

@cfr Thanks. Excellent!

@DavidCarlisle I see. Thanks.

@cfr I was thinking that probably many of your events aren't really 'lectures' in a classical sense - more seminars or workshops. For us, we tend to list most events as 'lectures' (auto-recorded) rather than 'workshops' (not recorded), but then be flexible in presentation

@cfr I would guess that someone at UEA doing similar teaching to you would put most events down as 'seminar' so they'd not be recorded as standard

@cfr For me, a 'workshop' is a whole cohort event where there are questions and we might have some discussion, but might just let the students work on things - ideally we'd have more than one member of staff, but that's a push nowadays

@cfr We also have tutorials - small group, still can be in staff offices, no question of recroding

@mickep i know for a fact that Springer is exactly the same. They contract typesetting, editing and QA out to a bunch of companies, at least for the more profitable journals and series.

@cfr Well they're definitely interpreted as the same as the object, but if you take "object" and "subject" to be structural positions, then they're not either of those things.

@cfr Sorry that's just a term of art that means "is syntactically represented but phonologically null, i.e., has no pronunciation".

@cfr in those languages, subjects aren't expressed as their own, phonologically distinct words but realizes as verb endings, like "amo", "i love" (lit. "love-i"). Syntactically, the subject's position is empty (i.e., null, or, depending on the theoretical framework, is a trace).

@Lupino Indeed, and it is also somewhat visible on the results. I do not say it is better or worse, but the look and feel is kind of... different.

@egreg supporting Scotland?

@DavidCarlisle Do you?

@JosephWright unfortunately, I don't have that power. we can choose what teaching techniques to use but we can't choose whether the sessions are 'lectures' (recorded) or 'seminars' (not).

@cfr Although most languages that do this have corresponding verbal morphology, it's not a requirement. E.g. Mandarin, Korean and Japanese have no verbal morphology corresponding to subject and object, but have null subjects and objects. Brazilian Portuguese has no object agreement morphology, but can have null objects.

@AlanMunn I guess I'm just used to the idea of a single 'thing' having bits in different places.

@cfr Yes it depends on how you define the terms, for sure.

@cfr Varies at UEA depending on the School - some have a fixed pattern, most of Science doesn't

@cfr But if you take the examples of the sort "Me I like that guy" and "That guy, I like him a lot", it's quite hard to say that the initial phrase is a subject or an object. I would say it's neither, but clearly related to a subject in the first sentence and to an object in the second sentence.

@AlanMunn so how do you tell what the subject/object is?

@cfr Context helps a lot. We're very good a following a conversation. And even English has null objects in recipes: Take 2 eggs. Beat well. Combine with the dry ingredients.

@cfr So for example, if I go to the fridge and say "Hey, what happened to the piece of pizza that was here?" In Portuguese or Mandarin it would be perfectly natural to just respond "I ate". In English this is impossible, even though the context is the same. So those languages arguably have a null pronoun whereas English has nothing.

@AlanMunn thanks. I wondered if that would be the answer.

@JosephWright anything small group is getting slashed right now anyway. that's if they are not just eradicating the subject altogether.

@cfr Well there is that too - but I meant that for example in some parts of UEA a 20-credit module is always X lectures, Y seminars - but in science it's whatever the teaching team fancy provided it's not too many hours in total

@JosephWright I don't know about sciences. I've always been told the pattern. but I really meant something more specific about Cardiff. current plan is to axe theology, ancient history, modern languages and translation and music ... (at least).

@cfr I know - I am working with someone in chemistry at Cardiff at the moment on a grant proposal - so I mailed as soon as the news broke

@cfr We lost music as an academic subject (as opposed to a social thing) some time ago (I think about a decade)

@JosephWright new toy: texlive.net/rnc/rncview.html?rnc=latex-bible

@JosephWright I figured you would. our glorious vc has been on the news and things.

@JosephWright but what they haven't said in the news is that they've already systematically been slashing all small-group teaching.

@DavidCarlisle what is it for?

@cfr the newish bit is an html coloured and linked view of RelaxNG schema, the schema themselves are the grammar used by the structure tree of latex generated tagged pdf

Oh, some secret dell ad on the main site now.

@DavidCarlisle thanks. (I'm nosy.)

has anybody used git-scm.com/book/ms/v2/Git-and-Other-Systems-Migrating-to-Git for migrating an svn repo to git?

@DavidCarlisle I'm not sure I understand it, but it looks like you get what you want?

it works well until I get to

for t in $(git for-each-ref --format='%(refname:short)' refs/remotes/tags); do git tag ${t/tags\//} $t && git branch -D -r $t; done

I don't know what I'm meant to put for for-each-ref.

@mickep mostly. It doesn't use a relaxng parser it's just a quick javascript regex replace adding the colours and links but it's close enough.

@cfr ?

@DavidCarlisle Very good!

@mickep use of them is described at github.com/latex3/tagging-project/discussions/789

@DavidCarlisle Thanks, (a bit much to read tonight...)

@cfr We used subgit

@DavidCarlisle oh, computers (tex.stackexchange.com/questions/736303/…)

@DavidCarlisle yes, saw that as well after posting my message :(

@Skillmon you are no better at secrets than the ducks

So slow today

@DavidCarlisle wait, it was a secret?

@Skillmon @mickep said it was, so it must be true

@DavidCarlisle oh those secret secrets which we only tell people in secret? We should trust the dodos to show us secrets, after all they managed to keep their existence secret for a few thousand years.

@Skillmon not a plan if they intend to keep them for another few, though.

@cfr you mean those dodos are plotting secret plans in secret? We should be very wary of them then!

@DavidCarlisle ??

@Skillmon possibly. I believe it is actually a secret whether they are plotting secret plans in secret, so we should have a secret plan in case they are secretly plotting secret plans in secret.

@JosephWright oh.

@cfr I hope @PauloCereda doesn't see this or his mind might be overwhelmed by all the secret secrets we and the dodos might be or are plotting in secret

@Skillmon we should probably keep it secret from @PauloCereda then?

@cfr you don't put anything for for-each-ref, that for-each-ref is not a placeholder but the actual command you want to use.

(if you're following that guide)

@cfr sounds like a good secret plan, and just to make sure we should also keep it secret from the dodos just in case

:67136606 man 1 git-for-each-ref

@Skillmon weird, but thanks. I do have the manual page. but ... hmm ... (actually my first interpretation was that it was a literal command, but then I thought that must be wrong.)

@cfr well it's meant to be used for further scripting just spitting out a list of all refs so that you can script something up with them.

@Skillmon yes, I realise that much, but it doesn't do that. git for-each-ref --format='%(refname:short)' refs/remotes/tags doesn't return anything at all.

@cfr then there are no remote tags it would seem.

@Skillmon thanks. this possibility just occurred to me. I just assumed I must be doing something wrong if I got no results.

@cfr in an empty folder ls returns nothing :)

(but I know how you feel, happens to everybody :))

@Skillmon yes ... I know. I'm an idiot.

@cfr no, you're not! You're just dabbling with something you never did before so it's only natural that some stuff behaves unlike your expectations

As I said, happens to everybody. If it never happens to oneself then one doesn't tackle hard or unfamiliar enough problems

@Skillmon it was secret from @barbarabeeton tex.stackexchange.com/questions/736303/…

It's healthy to do things every now and then you're not knowledgeable in already, that's the only way to learn

@DavidCarlisle uuh, such a secret secret :)

When does Lenove enter the picture?

@Skillmon that has specific tweaks for noto sans math

@DavidCarlisle hm, don't get it :(

@JosephWright does anything speak against turning \ProcessList into \tl_map_tokens:nn instead of \tl_map_function:nN? Would simplify things like tex.stackexchange.com/questions/736281/…

@Skillmon my first attempt used #1 as an inline function before I noticed it needed a csname token:-)

@DavidCarlisle my first thought was \ProcessList{#1}{ \inteval}.

@Skillmon isn't it too late to change or would it work the same way in enough cases?

@DavidCarlisle it would behave identical in every (currently) valid usage

@Skillmon hmm, I suppose it would.

@DavidCarlisle PR created

@Skillmon you already got a tick:-)