TeX, LaTeX and Friends

zetyty

05:36

@samcarter (I'm formally SylvainRigal, I changed my name sorry, but that's the last time I promise - maybe I shouldn't make that kind of promise because there are people here who are capable of burying very old posts to blame someone^^) Thank you very much for introducing me to Codidact! I really like this place, I think I'll spend hours there (so I'm not sure I should thank you ^^)...

I like Topanswer too, I've always been fascinated by projects capable of questioning "proven methods" to offer original alternatives. In this sense I find that Topanswer offers very original things (the chat linked to each post, I find it really great for example!)

zetyty

06:39

*formerly SylvainRigal

samcarter

10:01

@zetyty Have fun with codidact! :P

@zetyty The well integrated chat is one of my favourite features, too! I think that this is in particular useful for latex Q&A's. In latex, a problem can often be causes by some tiny detail in the code or it turns out to be a xy-problem which is better solved by an alternative approach. Both might require some back and forth discussion first before finding an answer. For such situations, an integrated chat is really great. It also makes the site much more personal than other Q&A sites.

Looking at github, the Defender of the SI system seems really persistent :)

mickep

10:23

@samcarter we will soon see the ultra-si package.

samcarter

@mickep will ultra-si be a shortcut for \sisetup{parse-numbers=false}? I wonder why they use siunitx. If they want to have "correct" input, they could typeset their numbers directly, can't they?

mickep

10:38

@samcarter I just think some users are never really happy. They should probably just write their own package. (Regarding your suggestion I don't know, I rarely use units so I am not aware of the details...)

Faheem Mitha

13:37

@samcarter Still github.com/josephwright/siunitx/issues/667?

samcarter

@FaheemMitha yes :)

Faheem Mitha

@samcarter He does seem unhappy.

Alan Munn

14:39

@samcarter Yet they seem to think R is consistent.

x <- c(1,2)
y <- c(1,2,3,4)
cbind(x,y)

samcarter

15:43

@AlanMunn :)

Alan Munn

@mickep Well this person is not really a TeX user at all, they're using TeX indirectly through pandoc.

Jasper Habicht

@AlanMunn If they feel annoyed that they need to input thinks differently from what they want to output, they can create their own macro that converts the input in their intended format to the input that is expected by the package.

Alan Munn

@JasperHabicht Of course, I'm just saying that they're coming to the issue from a very different mindset than we have here. And it's one that certainly wouldn't see that as an option.

Rmano

Well, I have to admit that I did try $\complexqty{2e2 -j2e4}{\ohm} and got surprised. I understand though that a complete parsing of numbers format is not in the scope of the package, and that in 99.9% of the case the e<n> thing is a time-saver.

Alan Munn

@JasperHabicht But it's like being annoyed that a package calls forest draws trees with the root at the top. :)

@Rmano Yes, I think this is crux of the issue. They have expectations about the input having SI/order of operations type behaviour and when it doesn't they complain. So the complaint in and of itself isn't completely misguided, but the dogged insistence that there can be only one valid input system seems a bit overdone. :)

Jasper Habicht

16:10

@AlanMunn At least, there is grow=north as option ... =)

Jasper Habicht

16:51

@AlanMunn Would it be possible to add an option? If yes, this could be turned to a feature request and, since it is open source, someone who feels proficient enough could make a pull request ...

Faheem Mitha

Hi folks. Nomenclature question about Expl3 macros, assuming that is what they are called. So, for example take \file_if_exist:nTF. Is its name considered to be \file_if_exist its name, or is the :nTF part of the name as well?

Alan Munn

@JasperHabicht I have no idea. @JosephWright certainly doesn't seem to think it should be a priority. I don't have much use for the package myself, so I don't have anything insightful to add on that.

Nasser

anyone here knows latexmk? I am starting to use it. I thought it will build the pdf file if it detects the image file changed in includegraphics. But it does not. It only detect changes to input or imported latex file. Is this true? For example, if I have this latex file

\documentclass[12pt]{book}
\usepackage{graphicx}
\begin{document}
\includegraphics[width=\textwidth]{image}
\end{document}

And then I create new image.pdf file, then

latexmk --shell-escape -lualatex foo.tex

It says nothing to do foo.tex and does not recompile it. That is too bad, it means I have to add these dependenc…

Faheem Mitha

@Nasser Yes, I use latexmk.

@Nasser In my experience, it's very good at detecting changes to source files, though I don't know how it does that. Probably something like a md5sum hash.

And it does everything automatically. No need to manually add dependencies or anything like that.

Nasser

@FaheemMitha yes, it detects changes in input and import files and rebuilds. But not changes in images included. This is too bad. It means I have to add these manually.

Faheem Mitha

17:06

@Nasser I think it should, if it doesn't. Why don't you report it?

AFAIK it depends on TeX itself to report what the source files are. So you are embedding the PDF file directly? Does \includegraphics support that? I use \includepdf myself.

Nasser

@FaheemMitha Are you sure it should detect changes in file included with includegraphics? I just tested it few time and it does not recompile. I am on Linux with TL 2022. That is why I wanted to ask here first if it is supposed to do that or not.

Rmano

@Nasser I tried with a minimal example (no .latexmkrc) and it works for me.

Faheem Mitha

@Nasser I think it should, yes. But of course I could be wrong. So you are including the PDF file directly, then? I just asked you that, but you didn't reply.

Rmano

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{graphicx}
\begin{document}

\includegraphics[width=0.9\linewidth]{alfa}
\end{document}

Faheem Mitha

I suggest an MWE to the site, if you can't figure it out.

Rmano

17:08

If I change alfa.pdf a recompilation is started

Faheem Mitha

I have not yet encountered an instance where latexmk didn't detect a change to a source file, and I do some fairly non-standard things.

Rmano

=== Watching for updated files. Use ctrl/C to stop ...

Latexmk: Need to remake files.
Reasons for rerun
Changed files or newly in use/created:
alfa.pdf
Category 'changed_user':
alfa.pdf
Category 'rules_to_apply':
pdflatex

Faheem Mitha

@Nasser BTW, why aren't you using TL 2023? It's been out for a bit?

Nasser

@FaheemMitha sorry, I do not understand what you mean by are you emdedding the pdf file directly. I posted the code I have. I then from the command line did touch image.pdf and run make file again and it does not rebuild the foo.pdf file.

Ok, will post question on main site. I am waiting to install TL 2023 which will take some time.

Faheem Mitha

@Nasser Seems like a clear question to me. Is \includegraphics including your PDF file? As opposed to a derived JPG file. You might have a step which automatically converts PDF to JPG and then includes that. Sorry, I'm not very familiar with \includegraphics. It's been a while since I used it. Like I said, I use \includepdf.

Which is probably better for PDF. It supports pages and stuff.

Nasser

17:12

@FaheemMitha Yes, the image file is actual PDF file. Not jpg or anything else. All my graphics files used by includegraphics are pdf files.

Faheem Mitha

@Nasser OK. Thank you for the confirmation. Yes, I think if it is not working for you, a MWE to the site is reasonable.

Rmano

@Nasser @FaheemMitha notice that touch alfa.pdf does not trigger a recompilation. The file must change.

Nasser

I think it might be because I did a "touch image.pdf" on linux, which updates the timestamp on the file and does not actually modify the image.pdf in any way. I'll try now to change the image.pdf physically and see. It could be latexmk looks at changes inside the file.

Faheem Mitha

@Rmano Oh, quite so.

Nasser

@FaheemMitha I just saw you said same. Yes, will try now.

Faheem Mitha

17:16

@Nasser Oh, you just used touch? No, that won't do anything. Like I said, it probably uses something to check the file has changed.

Sorry, I didn't notice you were using touch, if you said so earlier.

Nasser

@FaheemMitha I thought it works like Makefile, which uses timestamps.

Faheem Mitha

@Nasser No.

I think the documentation should cover this.

Rmano

@Nasser no, it uses hashes. Look for %hash_calc_ignore_pattern in the manual...

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha well given you can't write \file_if_exist :nTF best to consider it all one name

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle OK. Thank you.

@Nasser If you are interested, there is a detailed discussion in the source file. Meaning, the actual Perl file latexmk.

It looks a bit rough, but then again, I don't know if the author expects anyone to actually read it.

It starts with "??? UPDATE THE FOLLOWING!!" so it's possible it is not fully up to date. :-)

Here's the two para overview.

> We will need to determine whether source files for runs of various
# programs are out of date. In a normal situation, this is done by
# asking whether the times of the source files are later than the
# destination files. But this won't work for us, since a common
# situation is that a file is written on one run of latex, for
# example, and read back in on the next run (e.g., an .aux file).
# Some situations of this kind are standard in latex generally; others
# occur with particular macro packages or with particular

David Carlisle

17:24

@FaheemMitha includepdf is just a wrapper around \includegraphics handling the case you want whole page inclusions

Faheem Mitha

Anyway, I can vouch for the result. Whatever his methods are, they seem to be quite robust.

@DavidCarlisle OK. Anyway, it seems more convenient for PDF inclusions.

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha but that is not normally what you want if you have a pdf from some plotting program you want to include in a figure in your main doc

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle Agreed. But in my use case I include whole pages. But I guess it wouldn't work for @Nasser, so never mind.

Nasser

17:44

I've managed to get lualatex  into infinite loop. I can reproduce it each time on my large file. After few minutes, it freezes and I see 100% CPU used by lualatex using top command on linux. I waited 5 hrs and no changes on command line. It was stuck at 100% CPU. Stuck here.

Underfull \hbox (badness 10000) in paragraph at lines 260347--260347
[]|\T1/mlmr/m/n/10.95 pro-gram

Overfull \hbox (25.19994pt too wide) in paragraph at lines 260342--260354
[][]

LaTeX Warning: Hyper reference `8605' on page 7712 undefined on input line 2603

So I am not installing TL 2023 and will try again.

something changed in the Latex to cause this. I just do lualatex index.tex and wait 2-3 minutes and it get stuck.

This is after I do ^C, I wonder if it is breqn again


^C! Interruption.
\eq@repack ...epacka \EQ@copy \eq@repacka \EQ@box
                                                  \unskip \or \unpenalty \se...

\eq@capture ...penalty \z@ \eq@wdR \z@ \eq@repack
                                                  \setbox \tw@ \lastbox \glo...

\end@dmath ->\gdef \EQ@setwdL {}\eq@capture
                                            \endgroup \EQ@setwdL \eq@measure...

\finish@end ->\csname end@dmath*\endcsname

Because I added few more dmath* before this build.

Faheem Mitha

Is it better to use the term L3 or expl3 when referring to this new programming interface?

@Nasser Try removing all built files.

Nasser

@FaheemMitha I did. No difference. started with clean build. It gets stuck on same exact place with 100% CPU each time. I am sure breqn has something to do with it. I just have to figure where it gets stuck. i.e. where is this LaTeX Warning: Hyper reference `8605' on page 7712 undefined on input line 2603
60. is. I have thousands of files and many import others and Latex makes sure not give the file name where this error is at the line. So I have to spend long time each time just to find the file where this line is at.

One will think after 40 years, the error message will display also the file name. But no. May be we have to wait 40 more years before Latex tells the user the file name at same line where the error happened.

Faheem Mitha

18:01

@Nasser Yes, error reporting is not TeX's strong suit.

Which is why I make heavy use of version control, and do clean rebuilds frequently.

Nasser

@FaheemMitha Well, I do clean builds all the time. THe problem is when file A imports 1000 files and an error happens, trying to figure out which one of these 1000's files the error is from, since the error message just says the line number but not the file name.

Faheem Mitha

@Nasser There might be a way of finding out the file name. Have you tried asking about it?

Often even the line number is not useful, because the error is often not there.

Nasser

@FaheemMitha I did. Many years ago. I think I asked about this on this forum. No solution exists really. Imagine if C file include 100 .h files and an error happens in one of these .h file but the C compiler does not give the name of the h file at same line where the error message. There will be riots on the streets if this happens. But not in the Latex world.

Faheem Mitha

@Nasser Agreed.

@Nasser Actually, tracing can be quite useful in locating where things went south in the compilation, even if you don't actually understand what the tracing says. I rarely do, except in the simplest cases. Have you tried that?

Of course, my files are much smaller than yours are, by the sound of it.

@Nasser Actually, C compilers are often not very helpful either. But better than TeX, of course. Also, you can compile with debugging enabled and then use a debugger.

David Carlisle

18:22

@Nasser nonsense, the full log shows the file or if you prefer use --file-line-error so it puts the file name again on the error line

4

Faheem Mitha

18:34

Hi, folks. Since apparently I'm supposed to report these things. The dev version of TL 2023 is currently showing the same error as it was some time ago.

! LaTeX Error: File `| hg log -v -l 1 letter_template.tex --template '{node} {d
ate|isodate}'' not found.

This was fixed in the stable branch, or whatever it's called, and that one isn't showing the error ATM. I also updated before testing this.

Nasser

@DavidCarlisle the messages itself that gives lines numbers, should also show the file name. They do not, this is what I mean. So when lualatex is stuck, I do not know where from looking at the current output in the terminal It will be nice if it says

LaTeX Warning: Hyper reference `8605' on page 7712 undefined on input line 2603
60. [file: latex_input_files/solution_table_sequentially_side_by_side.tex]

Instead of just

LaTeX Warning: Hyper reference `8605' on page 7712 undefined on input line 2603

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha report things, but not here and with some clue about the input

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle So where should I report it? Should I reopen that issue and/or add a comment there?

David Carlisle

@Nasser but look in the log you can see the current file at that point

@FaheemMitha if you had given any clue about where the error came from someone could say the bug report address

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle This one, I think. github.com/latex3/latex2e/issues/1092

Checking the test file now.

Nasser

18:38

@DavidCarlisle Yes, but again, this happens only after I interrupt the build. It will be nice if all the warning messages that show up giving line numbers, also include the file name as well. So when the build is running and one is looking at the terminal, they at least know from which files these messages are generated from.

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha works with no error here

@Nasser you can see the files on the terminal as well

Nasser

@DavidCarlisle Not on each message with line numbers? Only one time when the file is read. But not on the messages that are scrolling down the screen. Here is screen shot. I do not see any file names any where?

David Carlisle

@Nasser as each file is opened it logs (/path/to/file and as it closes it logs )

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle Odd. I updated the issue. github.com/latex3/latex2e/issues/1092

Nasser

@DavidCarlisle But I am talking about these messages on the terminal. Each message that says line number xxxx, it will be more useful if it says [file_name.tex, line number xxxx]

Faheem Mitha

18:45

tlmgr says no updates. Is there some update that hasn't got to me yet?

@DavidCarlisle Are you also using LaTeX2e <2023-11-01> pre-release-0 (develop 2023-6-21 branch)?

Ulrike Fischer

@FaheemMitha I don't think that -dev has already the fix.

Faheem Mitha

@UlrikeFischer I'm not sure I understood that. Are you saying -dev does not have the fix?

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha sorry no, -dev doesn't have the patch yet

Faheem Mitha

OK. It was suggested to me earlier that I should use -dev for testing. So I should not do so right now, then?

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha well that's the thing about tests, they can fail

Faheem Mitha

18:52

@DavidCarlisle Yes, I'm aware of that.

Nasser

good news everyone,. I found why lualatex hangs. I think it is a BUG. Will be able to make MWE and post question on main board. I just want to confirm it is also in TL 2023. It is related to using breqn and dmath*

Faheem Mitha

@Nasser Congratulations.

mickep

Is somebody maintaining breqn?

David Carlisle

@mickep for some definitions of somebody and maintaining

mickep

19:08

@DavidCarlisle Oh, is it you?

David Carlisle

@mickep it's official blame Ulrike

mickep

@DavidCarlisle oh, brave to take care of that...

David Carlisle

@mickep you will note the "current maintainer" is a game of pass the parcel

mickep

@DavidCarlisle \text{, }

David Carlisle

@mickep you can never have too many spaces

mickep

19:20

Somebody is angry at tikz-pgf.

barbara beeton

@DavidCarlisle -- While true that the last file read is reported in the log file, doesn't killing the job with ^C kill the log before it's safely closed? If I were tackling this, I'd start with "divide and conquer".

Faheem Mitha

So TikZ and expl3 are not supposed to mix? So how would that work for all the TiKZ enthusiasts?

Skillmon

\exp_args:Noooo someone really doesn't want to expand any arguments.

mickep

@FaheemMitha why not?

Skillmon

@FaheemMitha and how does that work with my pgfmath-xfp package?

(hint: it's coded in expl3)

Faheem Mitha

19:25

@mickep I just read that somewhere. I don't know why not.

Because of the no spaces thing, perhaps?

mickep

@FaheemMitha I just read on the main site that stack exchange is thee worst site ever.

2

Faheem Mitha

@mickep What main site?

Skillmon

@FaheemMitha not sure someone answered that already. See the documentation of \cs_split_function:N, \<name>:<signature> is the naming scheme they chose to document there.

mickep

@FaheemMitha tex.SE

(bur gone now, spam...)

Faheem Mitha

@Skillmon So the signature is part of the name, then?

Alan Munn

19:28

@mickep Not quite. The user is posting very distasteful images as answers

Skillmon

@FaheemMitha \ExplSyntaxOn \draw[rounded~ corners] (0,0) rectangle (5, 5);\ExplSyntaxOff

Faheem Mitha

@mickep That seems like an odd statement to make there.

@Skillmon So TikZ doesn't break horribly all over the place if one tries to use it with expl3 syntax?

@Skillmon Is the terminology to refer to this API (for lack of a better term) expl3 or L3? If either, which is preferred?

Skillmon

@FaheemMitha no, just use ~ as a space in keywords. There might be additional problems if the catcode of : or _ needs to be 12, but those are either none-existent or pretty rare.

Faheem Mitha

@Skillmon OK. Well, good to know. Thanks.

Skillmon

@FaheemMitha The language's name is expl3, but L3 is understood around here as well.

Faheem Mitha

19:31

@Skillmon Which one should be preferred, then? expl3, by the sound of it.

mickep

@AlanMunn Very productive user.

Skillmon

(originally expl3 should've been the programming fundament of LaTeX3, but since the other parts of LaTeX3 are discontinued (there was the decision to develop 2e further instead in the past -- but I'm no team member, so I might get things wrong here...) you might as well call expl3 L3)

CarLaTeX

@JosephWright @StefanKottwitz @Werner Your intervention urgently needed on Meta

Skillmon

@FaheemMitha doesn't really matter, imho, but technically expl3 would be more correct.

Faheem Mitha

@Skillmon OK. I guess I'll go with expl3 then.

David Carlisle

19:35

@barbarabeeton sure but if you are going to discard it anyway it doesn't matter

@mickep ?

Faheem Mitha

@Skillmon Do you use expl3 a lot?

(I've probably asked that before.)

Alan Munn

@FaheemMitha Not really. I've written a package is TikZ based, but written in expl3. So it's not that hard to combine them.

Faheem Mitha

@AlanMunn OK. Good to know.

David Carlisle

@Skillmon L3 is also what it is called in the banner of every latex log @FaheemMitha

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle Well, I'm conflicted. At times like this, one needs a Royal Edict.

Ulrike Fischer

19:38

@DavidCarlisle you seem just to take over ;-)

Alan Munn

@FaheemMitha For code readability reasons, it's helpful to do as much of the TikZ stuff outside of the \ExplSyntaxOn domain as you can.

samcarter

@mickep The user seems to change their mind quite often. They posted the same statement on at least two other sites this week :)

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha the files and old package are named expl3, the language was unnamed but went under various names/descriptons latex3 expl3 ... but we decided to trial L3 as a name when expl3 pakage was obsoleted by being included in the 2e format

@UlrikeFischer but we blame you if it doesn't work

Alan Munn

@DavidCarlisle And how's that working for you? :)

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle So L3, rather than expl3?

mickep

19:42

@DavidCarlisle there were several spam posts... Some were tagged tikz-pgf.

Faheem Mitha

Some lunatic is filling the front page of Meta with garbage. FYI, if a question gets 4 spam flags, I think it gets deleted or something.

Alan Munn

@FaheemMitha Royal Edict from the resident linguist: language is determined by use, not by edict. :)

Faheem Mitha

At least, that's what I remember reading somewhere.

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha call it "weird style with underscores" if you wish

mickep

@samcarter Haha, good.

Faheem Mitha

19:44

@AlanMunn Sometimes Edicts are helpful. Though not a fan of Royalty in general. Quite the contrary.

@DavidCarlisle I don't think that name is in contention.

David Carlisle

@mickep aren't all posts tagged tikz-pgf spam?

Alan Munn

@FaheemMitha But the point is, all the edicts of the world (royal or otherwise) don't really matter if people decide to use something else. For example, does anyone really pronounce GIF with "j" rather than "g"?

mickep

@DavidCarlisle the spam bots might not know the picture mode.

Faheem Mitha

@AlanMunn I thought that was what the Tower of London was for.

@AlanMunn I go the "jif" route myself.

Not sure which is correct, though.

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha probably most people call it expl3 as for the longest period it was made available by \usepackage{expl3} but I've used it for years before the expl name was thought of, and now you don't need expl3.sty so I don't associate it strongly with "expl3"

samcarter

19:48

@DavidCarlisle Would a post "10 000 reasons picture mode is better than TikZ" be spam? :)

Alan Munn

@FaheemMitha I was expecting that. :) But you're in the minority, although the originator of the format supports that pronunciation.

Faheem Mitha

@AlanMunn OK.

Why were you expecting that?

David Carlisle

@samcarter probably someone would delete it for insufficient research, as it just stating the obvious

Alan Munn

@DavidCarlisle Also strongly influenced by the \ExplSyntaxOn command which is curiously not named \L3SyntaxOn (since it would then have to be \LiiiSyntaxOn which defeats the whole purpose. :)

samcarter

@DavidCarlisle :)

Alan Munn

19:50

@FaheemMitha Well you're the one asking for edicts. :)

Skillmon

@FaheemMitha depends. Quick and "dirty" code, yep, often expl3. Packages are mixed, some use it, others don't. Personal documents: I don't write many at the moment, and there I seldom need complicated things. PRs for the L3-kernel: Yep, all of the time they are written in L3 (though most of the time at such a low level that it's just TeX code with fancy names).

Faheem Mitha

@Skillmon OK.

Skillmon

@DavidCarlisle that's the team's fault for changing their mind. Back in the days (uhh, I can say "bac in the days") it used to be called expl3 (though in retro spect Frank called that an unfortunate name, afaik).

@FaheemMitha but to see how useful the language is: Take a look at the language used to develop all the new features in LaTeX2e like hooks or the tagging project.

David Carlisle

@Skillmon well it was expl3 but when included in the format the experiment concluded, so it became l3 (except where it didn't)

Faheem Mitha

Maybe L3 is not so bad. It's shorter.

David Carlisle

19:57

@FaheemMitha and exp(erimental) is a bad name for something declared stable

Skillmon

@FaheemMitha I'm pretty sure I used both terms, and use them interchangeably myself :P Maybe I should build a habit to use L3 as well.

@DavidCarlisle ~~\ExplSyntaxOn~~ \LSyntaxOn

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle Is that what the exp stands for?

David Carlisle

@Skillmon "(except where it didn't)"

Skillmon

@FaheemMitha yup, that's what it historically was

Faheem Mitha

@Skillmon Ah. Hmm.

Skillmon

19:58

@DavidCarlisle :P

Alan Munn

@Skillmon Or as I said, \LiiiSyntaxOn :) Or maybe \MakeSpaceAndColonLetter

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha "experimental latex3-in-latex2e " a mechanism for trying latex3 code without switching to a separate latex3 format

Skillmon

@AlanMunn that's incorrect, should be \MakeSpacesAndNewlinesIgnoredAndColonAndUnderlineLetter

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle Is there a separate LaTeX 3 format?

Alan Munn

@Skillmon Ah right.

David Carlisle

20:01

@FaheemMitha there was, but we decided not to do that and make expl3 the main focus so added it directly to latex2e, and added that L3 banner...

@FaheemMitha there was a latex3 format before there was latex2e

Skillmon

@DavidCarlisle and I've heard it was horribly slow.

David Carlisle

@Skillmon good things are worth waiting for?

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle What happened to the LaTeX 3 format?

David Carlisle

@Skillmon if you had a few thousand pounds worth of sun workstation on your desk it could make its own documentation in a few hours as I recall

@FaheemMitha it grew in to expl3 and was incorporated in to latex2e

samcarter

Ulrich Diez

20:07

Tables: Via \arrayrulewidth one determines the width both of horizontal rules and of vertical rules. Is there a way to determine parameters for horizontal rules and parameters for vertical rules independently?

David Carlisle

@samcarter 9999 unhelpful ones?

samcarter

^^^ The bunny spammer was so nice to give me this palindrome :)

David Carlisle

@UlrichDiez use!{\vrule width 1cm} for the vertical ones

samcarter

@DavidCarlisle probably :)

Skillmon

@DavidCarlisle that's imprecise, afaict, expl3 was a part/foundation of LaTeX3, but LaTeX3 had more stuff that was dropped and might now get added to LaTeX2e in an altered form.

@samcarter was it the same bunny spammer as on the other site? (today I witnessed and flagged stuff as well)

2 of those posts are still open on Meta btw.

:(

David Carlisle

20:11

@Skillmon I know, I was there :-)

Skillmon

@DavidCarlisle I know, just to give some more info to @FaheemMitha

samcarter

@Skillmon yes and before that they were on main meta.

Ulrich Diez

@DavidCarlisle Thanks. This is what I usually do when specifying columns. Am I right that there is no comfortable way of doing it otherwise, e.g., a single parameter-setting, which could be applied, e.g., with ytableau and the like where specifying column-types is done by the package, not by the user?

David Carlisle

@Skillmon the other big thing latex3 did was to undefine all tex primitives, so you could not use \def or \vskip but had to use latex names

Skillmon

@samcarter interesting that those distasteful bunnies also target other sites than SE/SO.

David Carlisle

20:13

@UlrichDiez no you'd have to patch tabular to use a different length register

Skillmon

@DavidCarlisle oh, that one I didn't know. Glad that that didn't happen in 2e :P

Ulrich Diez

@DavidCarlisle Thanks.

David Carlisle

@Skillmon 30 years later optex did same, even more completely as he includes \par (after an engine change to make that possible)

samcarter

@Skillmon On main meta, the published a list with > 100 sites and > 200 accounts which got banned - they seem to be doing this professionally...

Skillmon

@samcarter wow

Ulrike Fischer

20:17

@DavidCarlisle I couldn't sent hyperref yet. My internet is up and down and the upload times out.

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer ah I was going to ask about that, I updated but didn't really test:-)

@Nasser does that breqn patch work for your real document?

Jasper Habicht

20:47

We all know these questions that are more like a “do it for me” request. Sometimes I still think that writing the code for the answer is a nice exercise. But I also understand that such questions are probably of little help for others. Lately, I have the feeling that somebody downvotes my answers to such questions. So, should I not post answers then? (This is probably a question for meta, where I will post it as well, I think.)

Jasper Habicht

20:58

Found a related discussion: tex.meta.stackexchange.com/q/7926/47927 I’ll read this and maybe phrase my answers accordingly in the future …

CarLaTeX

@JasperHabicht Feel free to answer, I answered just-do-it-for-me questions many times. I think it could be useful (also for the OP) to explain how to properly ask a question

Ulrike Fischer

@JasperHabicht ignore anonym downvoters and don't start to think about their motives. If they don't have the nerves to tell you why they downvote they are not worth a thought.

3

Jasper Habicht

@CarLaTeX Reading what you wrote on Meta is still inspiring! I totally agree with what you say there.

@UlrikeFischer Right. A downvote should come with a comment …. Thanks for encouraging =)

barbara beeton

@JasperHabicht -- In the past, some "do-it-fot-me" questions proved to be homework assignments. While some of the problems thus posed are interesting and instructive exercises, do consider what possible fallout might be if that is the case. I'm not going to downvote unless an answer is truly misguided and misleading, but In such a case I would always leave a comment. I consider that not explaining a downvote is irresponsible.

Jasper Habicht

21:20

@barbarabeeton Yes, I remember some cases of discussion about homework assignments. Well, it is indeed a problem (going in the same direction as using ChatGPT for generating reports for school or university homework), but who is to blame? The one who answers (or ChatGPT)? Probably not. Anyways, it is surely a point to consider

Alan Munn

@JasperHabicht Yeah this is toxic behaviour, but there's not much to be done about it. People should just ignore these questions, if they don't like them, instead of downvoting answers. I completely stopped answering anything on EL&U after one of the prominent users there downvoted a perfectly good answer to something that ended up being closed as a duplicate. They weren't shy about owning up to the downvote, at which point I just left.

CarLaTeX

21:36

@JasperHabicht Thank you!

Jasper Habicht

@AlanMunn Thank you all! Well I just wondered whether I missed some site policy … but then someone would have told me in a comment, I guess. :)

Faheem Mitha

@samcarter Who is "they"?

Alan Munn

@FaheemMitha 'they' is the gender neutral semantically singular English pronoun. (On the assumption from context that it's a single user)

Faheem Mitha

@AlanMunn Ah. The spammer?

Alan Munn

@FaheemMitha Yes

Faheem Mitha

21:44

OK. I wonder why a spammer is spamming "professionally" here.

Alan Munn

@FaheemMitha I think that was somewhat sarcastic. It's true that there doesn't seem to be much potential for monetary gain from spamming the site.

I've spammed 1887 answers without earning a cent. :)

samcarter

@FaheemMitha What @AlanMunn said. I have no idea who they are.

Jasper Habicht

22:00

@Skillmon They are gone now (and I just got the Citizen Patrol badge for Meta =D )

Faheem Mitha

@JasperHabicht I wonder what that was. Is that sort of thing a common occurrence on TeX?

barbara beeton

@AlanMunn -- There are times (many) when I'd prefer to be referred to as "it", when there is a legitimate situation concerning multiple individuals and using "they" spawns confusion.

@FaheemMitha -- Not common, but nonzero.

Faheem Mitha

@barbarabeeton I use him/her myself. For individuals. Awkward, but ambiguous. Given that English doesn't have a singular gender neutral pronoun.

Alan Munn

22:16

@FaheemMitha It does, 'they'. Been around for more than 500 years.

2

Faheem Mitha

@AlanMunn I don't consider that singular.

barbara beeton

@AlanMunn -- But there are places where it's confusing.

@AlanMunn -- I've adopted your beamer theme for my TUG slides. Very nice.

Alan Munn

22:34

@FaheemMitha Well it's syntactically plural, but semantically singular in the contexts in which is it used.

@barbarabeeton There are definitely some current uses which cause us to double take once and a while, but I think the 'confusing' idea is oversold, frankly.

@barbarabeeton Thanks! One of my very earliest contributions I think, long before I probably knew what I was doing.

@FaheemMitha Just like 'you'.

barbara beeton

@AlanMunn -- I'm inclined to consider the "Spivak pronouns", even though Michael told me he didn't invent them.

Alan Munn

@barbarabeeton That's a losing battle, I'm afraid. It's much easier to get people to adapt to new uses of existing forms than to import new forms, especially for functional vocabulary like pronouns.

barbara beeton

@AlanMunn -- Oh, I know, but there are times when I've found circumlocution necessary.

zetyty

23:38

@AlanMunn @barbarabeeton Could you give me the name of that beamer theme please ?

Alan Munn

23:49

@zetyty It's the EastLansing theme.

zetyty

@AlanMunn Thanks a lot! I’m always loocking for good theme !

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