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6:00 PM
It was very easy to do in HTML, but it was impossible to do in MS Word.
 
@nagylzs The \setbox there could happily be done using \sbox, and the calculation using the calc package
 
So I have deicded to use LaTeX
 
@nagylzs Still horrible
 
But it turned out that it is more difficult than I expected so I started to read TeXbyTopic from the beginning.
 
@nagylzs Not really where I'd start for this issue
 
6:01 PM
Then please tell me where to start. :-)
 
@nagylzs TbT is best suited for would-be TeX programmers
 
Sorry, no documentation found for tbt.
What is tbt?
 
@nagylzs TeX by Topic
 
Oh okay.
Then where should I start? I'm done with "not to short introduction"
I have also read "table tricks" but it told me nothing about putting rotated boxes into cells and calculating their size via dimbyexpr
 
@nagylzs I'd go the The LaTeX Companion (by our own @FrankMittelbach), but you should also look at the booktabs documentation
 
6:04 PM
@nagylzs I wouldn't rotate that label for any reason; it makes the table just worse than it is without rotating. If you don't want a wide column, use an abbreviation for the label.
 
@nagylzs In general, rotating text like this tends to indicate a problem with the table design
@egreg Agreed
 
Okay.
texdoc.org NXDOMAIN
 
@nagylzs This is the business that LaTeX (or at least good LaTeX) is not just about 'produce output X' but 'produce output that looks professional'
 
@nagylzs I wouldn't use \multirow either. Just line up to the first row.
 
@nagylzs Ooops, texdoc.net
@egreg Can sometimes be useful
 
6:05 PM
Just line up? What does it mean?
 
@JosephWright I know, but not in this case.
 
@egreg Fair enough
 
Booktabls looks a good thing to start with.
This table is generated from a database, I have no idea how to abbreviate the name of the last column. But I'll figrure out.
Maybe put it into a footnote?
 
@nagylzs Yup. You can argument with some of what it says in some cases, but for tables for presenting numerical data it's usually a good guide
 
I see. I need to present numerical data. Mostly.
 
6:08 PM
@nagylzs "Sorszám" should be aligned to "Pozició 1", for instance: they are at the same logical level. I judge from the table, my Hungarian is not fluent. ;-)
 
Sorszám = line number
Pozíció 1 = position one (it is a coordinate)
Ok, I can put them in the same row.
Vízszintes/Függőleges means: horizontal/vertical
I could put "Vertical Position" and "Horizontal position" into two columns.
Yes, that is a good idea. :-)
 
@nagylzs They are specifications proper to "Position 1"
@nagylzs I warmly recommend booktabs.
 
Yup, I'm definitely going to read that.
TeXbyTopic was very.... detailed, but I could not fully understand it by reading from the top. :-)
Actually, first I have tried "texdoc tex" and it gave me about 600 pages of definitions. :-D
Thank you again. Reading booktabs now
 
@nagylzs If you're a recent starter with (La)TeX, TBT is strong stuff.
 
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| (_| | | | (_| | | | (_| |
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arara 3.0RC4 - The cool TeX automation tool
Copyright (c) 2012, Paulo Roberto Massa Cereda
Tutti i diritti riservati.

usage: arara [file [--log] [--verbose] [--timeout N] [--language L] |
             --help | --version]
 -h,--help             stampa il messaggio di aiuto
 -L,--language <arg>   imposta la lingua dell'applicazione
 -l,--log              genera un resoconto dell'output
 
6:16 PM
@PauloCereda available via github?
 
@MarcoDaniel Not yet. :)
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| (_| | | | (_| | | | (_| |
 \__,_|_|  \__,_|_|  \__,_|

arara 3.0RC4 - Das coole TeX Automatisierungstool
Copyright (c) 2012, Paulo Roberto Massa Cereda
Alle Rechte vorbehalten!

usage: arara [file [--log] [--verbose] [--timeout N] [--language L] |
             --help | --version]
 -h,--help             Ausgabe der Hilfe.
 -L,--language <arg>   Definiere die Sprache der Anwendung.
 -l,--log              Erstelle ein Protokoll (Log).
 -t,--timeout <arg>    Deklariere die Zeitbeschränkung der Ausführung (in
@Brent.Longborough: Which Cp do you use for Turkish? :)
 
@PauloCereda Ich merke gerade, dass ich noch etwas ergänzen bzw. spezifizieren muss
 
@MarcoDaniel oh... Trinke ich Wasser? :)
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| (_| | | | (_| | | | (_| |
 \__,_|_|  \__,_|_|  \__,_|

arara 3.0RC4 - ×ahane TeX otomasyon aracì
Copyright (c) 2012, Paulo Roberto Massa Cereda
Tüm haklarì saklìdìr.

usage: arara [file [--log] [--verbose] [--timeout N] [--language L] |
             --help | --version]
 -h,--help             yardìm iletisini yazdìrìr
 -L,--language <arg>   uygulama dilini ayarlar
 -l,--log              kayìt çìktìsì üretir
 -t,--timeout <arg>    yürütme zaman aƒìmìnì (milisaniye cinsinden)
Not sure if this codepage is right...
 
Hmmm another question? :-)
 
I hate Windows. :)
 
6:20 PM
@PauloCereda ISO-8859-9 (If that's the right way to specify)
 
@PauloCereda LOL ;-) I noticed that I must add / specify some strings.
@PauloCereda Who not ;-)
 
A have lots of data. Probably I'll have to use longtable. Can I use the things that I read in the booktabs documentations, together with long tables?
 
@MarcoDaniel Not sure about the latest comment on your biblatex-trad work!
 
@PauloCereda I;m sure it's wrong! LOL
 
@Brent.Longborough LOL
 
6:23 PM
@PauloCereda The Windows CP is 1254, but if you need to invoke that number, I think we're in deep trouble
 
@Brent.Longborough Indeed. :) I wouldn't say deep trouble, but it's a good fight. :) I have a plan B though. :)
 
@JosephWright Which one?
 
@nagylzs Sure.
 
@PauloCereda ISO-8859-9 should give you a viable translation. The Windows codepages don't conflict characterwise -- they just use some other (control-character) values for weird stuff like "proper" quote marks.
 
6:26 PM
@Brent.Longborough Do you have a Turkish Windows?
 
@PauloCereda No, God forbid
 
@Brent.Longborough LMAO
 
Ah, are you saying it doesn't display correctly on a non-Turkish windows? That feels like a java defect.
 
@Brent.Longborough I wish. It's a command prompt problem.
 
@JosephWright This one. russella (bug reporter) was the first one who send me any feedback. I am sure you understand the following: If I work on some packages during my leisure, I want to get some positive feedback as motivation. This wasn't so for this package. The new comment of russella is a big motivation.
 
6:31 PM
@PauloCereda Even my Smartgit "sanitises" Turkish characters
 
@Brent.Longborough I have a possible solution. :)
@Brent: don't forget that I love reinventing the wheel. :) That includes rewriting the whole output system! :) And there's @MarcoDaniel to review my code. :P
 
@MarcoDaniel True
 
Bye friends. See you tommorrow.
 
@KannappanSampath See ya! :)
 
@PauloCereda LOL
 
6:36 PM
@MarcoDaniel We are a great team. :)
 
@PauloCereda But first in your "paulo branch" ;-)
Time for dinner -- salad day ;-(
 
@MarcoDaniel ooh the serial killer psycopath unstable path. :)
@MarcoDaniel Oh no!
 
7:23 PM
On reflection, it's reasonable to have a Turkish-flavoured Windows as a pre-requisite for seeing sensible messages in Turkish. I don't know how the U**x world handles this stuff, though. (Well, I don't really know how the Windoze world does either)
 
@Brent.Longborough I'll investigate how things work. :) I know Unix is more friendly on UTF-8 stuff.
 
@PauloCereda Even tho I'm a Windoze user, I don't think we should distort the whole product just to accommodate Microsoft's partial competence
 
@Brent.Longborough I think it's worth to take a look. Even German has some distorted chars, so the issue might be broader than we think. :)
I'll try to play with a different output routine. At least, our logs are being written correctly (proper Turkish).
 
@PauloCereda AFAIK, (Modern) German is handled completely by ISO-8859-1. What sort of probs are u getting?
 
@Brent.Longborough Some annoyances, but I'll take a look later. :) I'm hungry now, I'll hunt some pizza. :)
 
7:31 PM
@PauloCereda 'K -- Bom bon apetit
 
@Brent.Longborough Obrigado. :) Expect moarrr mailzz on this subject. :)
 
@PauloCereda Or, of course, now, Trelloze
 
@Brent.Longborough I might need Yoda. :)
 
@PauloCereda With my Yoda-robes on, await you, I will
 
@Brent.Longborough LOL
 
7:43 PM
@PauloCereda what?
 
@DavidCarlisle Marco answered a question of mine by pointing at the exact line of latex.ltx. :)
 
@PauloCereda it's the easiest way:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle Is that what they call fons et origo?
 
Trello looks quite neat (I'm watching the arara board with interest)
 
7:59 PM
@JosephWright I'm not sure whether we are a common use case (yet!) :)
@JosephWright One way it might be used is for one-to-one interaction between teacher and student; you can even keep it private
 
@JosephWright <3
 
@Brent.Longborough Possibly not
 
@Brent: let's add Joseph there too. :)
@Brent: I wrote a few comments there, I'll work on both. :)
Let's add @Joseph, I want to share the blame with more people. :)
 
HAH, got 2 items in the review que before someone else grapped them.
...then I wasn't sure what to do with one, so hit skip.
Anyway, is @JosephWright or someone else who knows chemistry or physics around?
I have a typesetting question
What is the right way to typeset orbitals? I'm using $d^0 f^0$ right now, but it doesn't look quite right.
 
@Canageek Seems to vary a lot
@Canageek Some people use italic, others do not
 
8:09 PM
@JosephWright I've always seen it with italic myself, so I'm going to keep it italic.
@JosephWright I was wondering about spacing and such. It doesn't look quite right set as math.
 
@Canageek Let me try :-)
@Canageek Might need a \!: italic correction is not always ideal in math mode
 
@JosephWright Where would I put that?
 
@Canageek For example $d^0\!f^0$
 
8:26 PM
@JosephWright Much better, thank you. What does that do?
 
@Canageek 'Negative space'
 
I'm using the oxford comma, I feel dirty
 
@JosephWright: permission to add you to our board? :)
 
@PauloCereda Of course
 
@JosephWright Ah, now I just have to figure out how to split this abomination of a sentence up.
The reactivity would be examined by forming hydrides, amides, and thiolates; by performing small molecule activation ---for example, the activation of \ch{H_2}, borane, and acetylene addition to the alkyl groups--- and by the addition of neutral donors ---such as isocyanides, pyridine, and carbon monoxide--- to the complex.
 
8:28 PM
@JosephWright Done. :)
 
@JosephWright Now all you have to do is sign up :)
@PauloCereda Did you invite the Wright Joseph?
 
@Brent.Longborough Yep. :)
 
@PauloCereda OK, just asking
 
@Brent.Longborough The ducks match, so I think I added our Joseph Wright. :)
 
@PauloCereda OK. The Passerine Authentication Protocol :)
 
8:35 PM
@Brent.Longborough LOL
 
Hey, why are two of @JosephWright's badges red?
 
@Canageek Probably they are tag badges. :)
 
@Canageek I can only see one. Is it because they are tag-badges?
 
@Brent.Longborough Yes, yes they are
 
@PauloCereda Great first half, only one team on the field. Second half so and so.
 
8:42 PM
@Brent.Longborough There are several on my full profile :-)
 
@JosephWright Indeed! I was just looking at the profile summary...
 
swears at this grant So close to fitting on one page. So close.
 
@egreg Great game by Pirlo and Vidal. :) Trivia: Taddei is also a former Palmeiras player. :)
 
@Canageek \expandthispage ?
 
@PauloCereda I liked Vidal less than Marchisio
 
8:45 PM
@Brent.Longborough They specify margin size, and not THAT close.
 
@Canageek [9pt,extrafontsizes]
 
@egreg A nice game by Marchisio too. :)
 
@Brent.Longborough "All text must be in 12 pt Times New Roman font; "
I'm counting
\usepackage{mathptmx}
\usepackage{tgtermes}
to be close enough
 
@Canageek Oh, dear. This is how they make martyrs out of TeXnicians
 
@Brent.Longborough Also "Pages must be single-spaced, with no more than six lines of type per inch; "
HUH, it fits on the page MUCH better if I turn microtype off.
 
8:49 PM
@Canageek Do they specify the inter-character spacing?
 
@Brent.Longborough "Condensed fonts will not be accepted; "
Opps, almost forgot to set citecolor = black,
I'm about 3 lines over now that I've turned microtype off. I could sqeeze things a little I bet.
 
@Canageek Not suggesting condensed, just microtype with tracking of a few thousandths of an em. Would they notice?
 
@Brent.Longborough They are expecting Word. Hit me up.
 
@Canageek Ouch! Times 12pt, 6 lines in 72.27in: quite tight typesetting!
 
@egreg Better then double spaced!
 
8:53 PM
@Canageek As in Gladiator: "On my signal, unleash ... Word"
@Canageek I can't really understand why they have to overspecify this stuff.
 
@Brent.Longborough Beacuse if they don't they get applications in 6 pt Times New Roman with 1 cm margins.
@Brent.Longborough So how do I do that? I've edited it down to 2 lines.
 
@Canageek Yes, but I would have thought they could do a range, say 10pt-12pt, and so on.
 
@Brent.Longborough Government. They already gave me some leeway by messing up how many cm in an inch
"Margins must be set at a minimum of ¾" (1.87 cm); "
2.54 * 0.75 = 1.905, not 1.87. They used 2.5 cm, then rounded down when they should have rounded up.
 
@Canageek Sorry, I'm not sure. The manual appears quite complicated (ie lots of settings on diverse axes)
 
@Brent.Longborough I see, thank you for trying.
@Brent.Longborough \usepackage[kerning=true, protrusion=false, expansion=true, stretch=0, shrink=20, spacing=true]{microtype} seems to help
 
9:06 PM
Something like

\usepackage[tracking=true,letterspace=-25]{microtype}
@Canageek But I'm a bit out of my depth...
@Canageek Thats a 2 1/2 percent shrink in letter spacing
 
@Brent.Longborough Ah, I simply said it could shrink things up to 2.5%, but not expand them at all.
 
@Canageek I think my parameters actually force it to shrink, if I have read the book correctly
 
@Brent.Longborough No change
 
I assume you're *not* using XeTeX? :)

Try

\SetTracking{encoding=*,shape=*}{-100}
 
@Brent.Longborough PDFTeX
 
9:15 PM
@Canageek OK, that's where we have the best chance...
 
@Brent: Don't worry with the input format. :) Our issue relies on the output routine. :) Non quod intrat in os coinquinat hominem sed quod procedit ex ore hoc coinquinat hominem. :)
 
Run into a problem. After \usepackage{amsmath} I have tried $\measuredangle$ and got this error:  ! Undefined control sequence
 
Or in beautiful Italian: Non ciò che entra nella bocca contamina l’uomo; ma ben lo contamina ciò che esce dalla bocca. :)
 
@Brent.Longborough Doesn't change anything.
 
@Canageek Ok, sorry, I tried :'->
 
9:22 PM
@Brent.Longborough No worries
I saved half a line by switching iodine-131 to isotope, not sure why.
 
Damn, an English catch: First, I second this suggestion...
2
 
@nagylzs You may need \usepackage{amssymb} as well
@PauloCereda Sorry, I think that may be a bit optimistic, unless the input is recognisably UTF8
 
@Brent.Longborough I'll fix it. :)
 
@PauloCereda \usepackage{telepathy} ?
2
 
@Brent.Longborough \usepackage{fortytwo} :)
2
 
9:26 PM
@PauloCereda Riddle of the Univers Universe, the answer to, it is (Damn, the place, not the font!)
 
@Brent.Longborough :)
 
amssymb works, thank you
 
@nagylzs That's good!
 
@Brent.Longborough LOL LOL LOL LOL
 
@PauloCereda Your hovercraft is full of LOLs...
3
 
9:28 PM
@Brent.Longborough LOL
 
@PauloCereda Would \usepackage{42} be a bad name for a package?
 
@tohecz I don't know. :)
 
LaTeX would not complain, would he?
 
@Brent.Longborough: in other news, Hebe Camargo died today. :(
 
@PauloCereda Yes, I heard. She must have been rather old, no?
83
 
9:31 PM
@Brent.Longborough She was very sick.
 
@tohecz I would have thought LaTeX to be a she; the smallest error in dealing with her can produce exaggeratedly wrong results...
5
 
@Brent.Longborough Found the problem: "tracking=alltext," not "true"
 
@Canageek Ah! And did it work?
 
@Brent.Longborough Well, -12 seems about right. Editing a bit more, as it does look a bit less nice.
 
@Canageek OK. Glad you got there in the end.
Right. It's time for me to turn into a pumpkin again. Good night everyone.
 
9:47 PM
Quick question. How do you run Xelatex from the terminal in OS X? That is, what command do you invoke? I have Tex Live 2012 installed.
 
@Speldosa xelatex
 
@JosephWright Duh :)
 
@Brent.Longborough Good night! :)
 
@Brent.Longborough Good night!
 
@Brent.Longborough Not eels?
 
10:03 PM
Would it be appropriate to answer tex.stackexchange.com/q/74679/5701 by saying to use negative values for enumitem settings, e.g. \setlist[question, 2]{label=\alph*), leftmargin=-2.5em}?
 
@N.N. I don't see why it would be
 
@Canageek Negative values are scary
 
Another quick question. I want to use the symbol \letter from the package ifsym. TeX Live Utility tells me I have it installed. What do I need to do to get it to work? I've loaded \usepackage{ifsym} but that doesn't seem to be enough.
 
@Speldosa \usepackage[misc]{ifsym} :)
 
@Brent.Longborough LaTeX is one of my best friends and is he!
 
10:13 PM
Hmm...Doesn't seem to help. I've tried writing both \letter and "$\letter$ but the terminal just gives me "! Undefined control sequence.
l.84 \letter
" :/
 
@Speldosa I think it's \Letter (at least I saw something in the ifsym.sty source).
 
anyways, bedtime!
 
@tohecz Good night, Tom! :)
 
@PauloCereda Yes, all the ifsym commands have an uppercase initial.
 
@egreg I've learned with my TeX Jedi master Enrico to also look in the source code. :)
 
10:16 PM
@N.N. It might be; but, as I commented, it doesn't seem the best way to present the material. The "Question" should probably be a section title.
@PauloCereda grep etter `kpsewhich ifsym.sty`
 
@PauloCereda Thanks! That did the trick. What does the misc-option do here? Is this the general method to use for all the symbol packages?
 
@egreg That seems reasonable. Please post such an answer so that the ugly hack I just posted will be out voted!
 
@egreg quack ifsym.sty :)
 
@N.N. I prefer to wait when the OP edits the message.
@PauloCereda Actually I do less `kpsewhich ifsym.sty` , so I can search more.
And the backquotes are necessary for a very good reason. :) I can't say $(kpsewhich ifsym.sty). :)
 
@Speldosa I think it's a particularity of the ifsym package. Instead of "polluting" the the macros table with a lot of commands, it allows you to choose only a subset of symbols, so you actually need to specify which set you want to load. :)
@egreg I tried to fool David into running https://github.com/cereda/quack/blob/master/quack, but he read the source first. :) Here I have gvim/mvim set as editor. :)
 
10:20 PM
@PauloCereda Ah! That's great since I've just ran into the problem that another packages also loads something called \Letter.
 
@PauloCereda That's probably the reason. It's a rather old package and in those times it was necessary to spare commands.
 
@egreg Ah interesting. :)
@Speldosa Sometimes name definitions clash. :(
 
@N.N. Did you try adding some text before the outer enumerate? You'll notice that "Question" sticks out in the margin.
@N.N. And, of course, the larger labels are appalling.
 
@egreg Thanks. Fixed the margin thing. And, yes, I agree about them now been pleasing to the eye.
 
Speaking of symbols...Anybody know of a good symbol that can be use to represent an author of an article (I'm thinking a pen writing on a piece of paper or something).
 
10:30 PM
@Speldosa Sure you need a symbol? Sometimes it is best to go with a plain text, e.g. "the author" or the name of the author.
 
@N.N. I'm experimenting with using symbols instead of text. However, it might be a little bit crowded to specify the author in this way. dl.dropbox.com/u/3394117/…
 
Hmmm, I'm thinking that my next big LaTeX undertaking will be figuring out how to force to to add less space between words with large (12 pt) type.
 
@Speldosa Those look like the old mac os icons. Back when mac looked good. Nice! Why would you say it is crowded to specify the author like that?
 
@N.N. I don't know. It's more of a hunch :) I'll try to stick a symbol there and see what happens.
 
@Speldosa It is already clear from the context who the author is
 
10:40 PM
@N.N. Exactly! That's what I meant.
 
@Canageek \spaceskip=1sp :)
 
@Speldosa Adding a symbol to the author with that style you are using seems as redundant as adding a symbol to the title
 
@egreg What does that do?
 
@N.N. Yeah, I agree. Just got a bit carried away :) I'll stick to those three.
 
@Canageek Try it! Put it in the preamble and look!
@Canageek It's probably a too drastic way of reducing the interword space. ;-)
 
10:43 PM
@egreg Let me guess; It sets the interword space to always be 1sp, instead of flexing as normal?
 
@Canageek Yes.
 
@egreg I want it to flex, just a bit less
 
By the way: Switching from using TeXShop to using Sublime Text 2+OS X Terminal+Preview=Best decision I've made this year!
 
@Canageek The usual spacing for Times is equivalent to \spaceskip=0.25em plus 0.15em minus 0.06em; the first dimension represents the "normal" space, the second is the amount of stretching and the third the possible shrinking. Set it after \begin{document}, but notice that the same lengths will be used also for larger type.
@Speldosa Aquamacs+Terminal+Skim (some years ago). :)
 
@egreg MacVim + ConqueShell + iTerm2 + Skim + arara :)
 
10:49 PM
@Canageek Notice that the interword spacing is already quite tight.
 
@egreg So I could just reduce 0.15em to 0.10em for example. Is there a way I can pull the current value out, since I'm using 12pt? So I don't have to keep asking you folks every time I use a new font.
 
@PauloCereda What's MacVim?
 
@egreg It's vim for Mac. :)
Just like Aquamacs. :)
 
@PauloCereda What's vim? ;-)
 
@egreg oops, I think @DavidCarlisle can answer that one. :P
 
10:52 PM
@Canageek I did tftopl $(kpsewhich ptmr8t.tfm)|less from a terminal. This is what I got:
(FONTDIMEN
   (SLANT R 0.0)
   (SPACE R 0.25)
   (STRETCH R 0.15)
   (SHRINK R 0.0599985)
   (XHEIGHT R 0.45)
   (QUAD R 1.0)
   (EXTRASPACE R 0.0599985)
 ...
 
@egreg So I have to know the name of the font file I'm using, lovely.
 
The numbers are dimensions in em units for the font.
@Canageek This is not for the "casual user". :)
 
@egreg Is that from tgtermes, times or mathptmx?
 
@Canageek It's for mathptmx. tgtermes uses very similar values.
 
@egreg But not the same. I load tgterms after mathptmx because it makes the spacing look much nicer.
 
10:55 PM
This is tgtermes
(FONTDIMEN
   (SLANT R 0.0)
   (SPACE R 0.25)
   (STRETCH R 0.125)
   (SHRINK R 0.083)
   (XHEIGHT R 0.45)
   (QUAD R 1.0)
   (EXTRASPACE R 0.083)
 
@PauloCereda: Hey, did you just interfere with the SE overloads? Seems that the question I was referring to on meta just showed up. I did not know you were THAT powerful on this site! :-)
 
@PeterGrill Me?! I didn't do anything. :)
 
@Canageek You can print the internal name of the current font by \fontname\font. Just add .tfm and issue the command above.
 
@egreg Cool. I wish CTAN would add a rule that all font packages have to list their 4 letter names in their documentation.
 
@PauloCereda Just a coincidence then I guess. But very timely one.
 
10:57 PM
Or that @JosephWright would finish rewriting fonts. ^^
 
@PeterGrill ooh spooky. :)
 
11:08 PM
@egreg Hmm...Skim looks interesting...especially the sync feature between it and tex files.
 
@Speldosa Yes, and also the possibility to have the PDF open at full screen size.
 
@egreg As in Preview?
 
@Speldosa Maybe also Preview now has this feature.
 
@egreg Yep, it does. Still, I'm going to look into Skim. Might be epic :)
 
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