TeX, LaTeX and Friends

cis

00:21

It wasn't meant to be mean or personal, but professional.
In principle, one would have to have read the manuals in full for 3 or 4 packages that belong to the same complex, and also have in-depth knowledge of how to deal with LaTeX fonts in order to be able to handle them elegantly and create a chess result.

But I don't have the inner peace for that, I have to try it out and use it immediately.

Therefore I commend myself a package like tcolorbox or pgfplots, which is complete and closed and with a basic syntax largely intuitive and self-explanatory.

dedded

03:39

Does anyone know if \< is defined anywhere? I want a minus half-thinspace, and am thinking of calling it \<, but don't want to bump into trouble later if it's used by some package.

David Carlisle

06:54

@dedded tabbing

mickep

07:37

@barbarabeeton Aha, that makes sense. It is very rare to hear about the tabbing environment.

@DavidCarlisle But it is a hot topic these days...

samcarter

09:07

@DavidCarlisle I seems your attempts to forget about it were not very successfully :)

Paulo Cereda

09:43

@barbarabeeton ooh twitter.com/xeni/status/1493384282407985152

Firefox :)

Joseph Wright

@cis Reading the docs, xskak is explicitly an extension of skak, so presumably one needs familiarity with the latter. Your example looks relatively clear to me, other than not being familiar with the naming of the keys

samcarter

10:11

@PauloCereda Is this the trick to get firefox running again after an error?

Faheem Mitha

12:33

I recently created a paid account for mailbox.org. They have a prepaid system. I was amused to see that the payment receipt was generated by PDFTeX, per pdfinfo's "Producer" field. I don't recall having come across this before, for a company.

dedded

@DavidCarlisle Weird that Latex did not complain when I (re-)defined \< with newcommand. I figured that if there were a collision, it would be with a package.

@DavidCarlisle Are there any unused backslash-punctuation combinations?

mickep

@FaheemMitha Fun! I think the train tickets from Deutche Bahn were generated by TeX. Not sure if that is the case anymore.

@dedded I'm the curious sort. What is a typical use case of the minus half-thinspace?

dedded

12:51

@mickep Funny, since you commented on my question :-). tex.stackexchange.com/questions/633772/… It's looking like there's no way for me to fix up f in a personal style file, so I'd have to do it in documents. And minus thinspace is too much.

mickep

@dedded Oh, I did not connect. Well, do you really want to do this?

Let me show you an example.

Joseph Wright

@dedded It's only defined within the tabbing environment

@dedded You can happily define \<, it will be overwritten inside tabbing as the latter uses \let

dedded

@mickep Well, I want to do it in cases where it looks bad (like 2πf).

mickep

@dedded Look closely at the boxes. I have no fear touching boxes in general, but here I think it looks quite OK. (You might have a slightly different spacing around the solidus than I have, but that is a different story.)

David Carlisle

@dedded the tabbing commands are locally set up within that environment so \< wouldnot be available with your definition in math in tabbing

dedded

12:55

@mickep Right, your first example, or even the common f(...)would be cases where I would not want to trim.

David Carlisle

@dedded no (not in pdflatex) in luatex or xelatex there are rather more characters available

@JosephWright but not if you want to use \< to mean a negative space in inline math in tabbing (which as @barbarabeeton suggested is probably why latex sugges \: rather than \>)

mickep

@dedded Instead of looking for a short cut like \< or so, maybe it is better to define your own \f that does what you want? In that case it will be easy to "reset" it as well.

dedded

@DavidCarlisle Seems like a case that: I would never actually run into (math in tabbing), and that I would worry about anyhow :-). I don't think I've ever actually used tabbing, outside of trying to get it to work for something where I ended up doing something else.

mickep

@DavidCarlisle I wonder how many tabbing cases @dedded have in the document. :)

David Carlisle

@mickep 16?

mickep

12:59

@DavidCarlisle I think it is time for you to use tabbing in all your answers from now on.

dedded

@mickep Yeah, that's where I started. But I need three: f trimmed in front, in back, and on both sides. But it has the advantage that I could re-define in a different font.

mickep

You gotta promote the core macros...

David Carlisle

@mickep positioned with picture mode \put

@dedded is this just luatex?

mickep

@dedded Maybe it is easier for you to open the font in fontforge and simply tighten the box as you want it. Of course then you will have to carry around the font everytime you use it...

David Carlisle

@dedded if it is don't corrupt the markup with expliict spaces, use the end of math callback and iterate over the list adding spaces where you want

dedded

13:02

@DavidCarlisle No, and not just STIX2. I just never noticed it before. I used latex for about 4 years to make math tests, but haven't actually used it for math in about a decade. So I wanted to play with unicode-math, and instead of making a math test, I pulled some examples from old textbooks. That's when I discovered that f looked bad in some cases. But since filing my question, I've tried it with CM and there are some bad-looking cases there, too.

@DavidCarlisle I'm not sure what you mean, but it sounds like way beyond my latex skillset.

I don't think I ever used f as a variable in a math test. Most likely only ever used it as the "name" of a function f(x) ...

mickep

@dedded If you try Garamond-Math in luatex (not sure about xelatex) and do $f(x)$, you will be willing to insert also positive spaces... But of course, there are already shortcuts for that.

dedded

@mickep I'm now very worried about needing 2πf in inline math in the tabbing environment

mickep

@dedded Sorry, one thing at a time.

mickep

13:26

@dedded I guess another way to go regarding stixtwo is to contact the people working on the font and give them examples that do not look good. That way, it can perhaps be improved without hacks.

dedded

13:45

@mickep That's a good thought, I'll look into it tonight. Suppose I'll have to create a github account.

samcarter

14:28

@UlrikeFischer The adventures of the Bär's cousin: newsweek.com/…

barbara beeton

15:18

@PauloCereda -- Not firefox. The red panda is the firefox. See allcreaturespod.com/episodes/…

@PauloCereda -- But this critter is adorable!

barbara beeton

15:34

@dedded -- In the TeXbook, Knuth states that there are situations in which manual intervention is needed. I think $df$ may be an example. The font parameters are set to work "properly" for the majority of cases. Observe that with cm, the math d does not have the expected space at the right, since Knuth's practice is to use italic d as the differential.

@mickep -- Not very likely, I'm afraid, although one can try.

mickep

@barbarabeeton I understand that, and to me the example is not valid (I think it looks OK). But I guess the correct way of having it fixed if there are valid examples is to fix the font, and not to manually add negative half thin spaces.

barbara beeton

@mickep -- If you'd ever tried to space a font, you'd know how difficult it is. When there are multiple different environments in which a glyph is to appear, the choice must be made to satisfy the most frequent situations. Things may be different with OpenType (I don't know), but my experience has been more with the requirements associated with metal type, which are quite rigid.

mickep

@barbarabeeton I have not, so I understand that it is difficult. That is why it is good if the problems are reported. (Then one can discuss if they are problems, or better options of course.)

barbara beeton

@samcarter -- That's a very sweet story. (Our menagerie includes a bear my husband adopted when he found it in a snowbank at a highway pullout.)

samcarter

@barbarabeeton Oh, I bet the poor bear was freezing!

barbara beeton

15:50

@samcarter -- Indeed! He has been very well taken care of since.

dedded

@barbarabeeton "italic d as the differential", yeah, my practice too, and in all my old textbooks. In fact, I've only ever seen upright d as diff in Latex discussions (and personally find it jarringly ugly).

barbara beeton

@dedded -- STIX2 has the italic correction after the math d; I find that jarring. The upright "d" is mandated in an international standard written by engineers; no mathematicians involved, but that has caused some mathematicians, mainly in Europe, to question what is the proper style. I am (slowly) trying to research the history of the notation, but getting hold of historical documentation is slow going.

mickep

16:10

@barbarabeeton You certainly know of hsm.stackexchange.com/questions/6727/…, but maybe that is new reading for @dedded.

dedded

16:25

@mickep I know it's a standard (from Latex discussions). But standardized ugliness is still ugly. :-) Still, thanks for the pointer, I'm curious to read about it. And @barbarabeeton I agree that italic d isn't great in stix2 (the glyph is too fat, too). It will be my luck that the US will adopt this ugly upright-d standard and still leave everyday SI adoption languishing.

barbara beeton

16:40

@mickep -- I do know of the discussion there. There is a comment that contains the question about what did DEK study to base TeX on. His sources included the Swedish Acta Mathematica, and he has documented his sources in his book "Digital Typography", but my copy is in an inaccessible box, so I can't look it up. (I'm also not signed up on hsm.sx, so would have to do that as well.)

mickep

@barbarabeeton Hm, that must be the book I was talking about the other week. As far as I have understood, it was merely used as a guide for Acta Mathematica. The circle is closed. (I think there is a funny quote on the upright d in the book, I'll have a look.)

@barbarabeeton I'm discussing a lot of math typesetting with Hans at the moment. He is extending the number of classes, and there will be a differential class (in luametatex). That way, one can specify what space one wants in combinations with other classes (as you know). One still has to say explicitly that the d is of that class, but there will be no need of \, anymore.

(The quote in Lansburgh was perhaps not so funny as I remembered it. The content was: If the author consequently uses upright d, let it be upright, otherwise use the italic d, as usual!)

samcarter

17:13

The most famous table is Italian corriere.it/cronache/22_febbraio_12/…

barbara beeton

@mickep -- I'll be interested in what the book has to say. I've asked my "usual" "books about books" bookstore to try to obtain a copy for me. (Thanks again for calling it to my attention.)

Alan Munn

17:29

Why do I seem to answer in pairs and keep my reputation for all intents and purposes unpalindromable. :)

samcarter

@AlanMunn feature request: allow bounties with an arbitrary number of points :)

Alan Munn

@samcarter Great idea!

mickep

@barbarabeeton My offer still stands to send a copy.

barbara beeton

17:57

@mickep -- Thanks. Let's see what my bookseller has to say, but I may in the end take you up on your offer.

mickep

19:12

I hate when people use mathfrak letters that I do not recognize. Makes it difficult to read out loud... just so that you know

barbara beeton

@mickep -- What mathfrak letters do you recognize?

mickep

@barbarabeeton Hm, some of them. But apparently not lower case v, which looks like a rotated lower case a... Do you know them all?

barbara beeton

@mickep -- Actually, I do know them all, but there are different styles for some letters, and that can get one in trouble. In text, there's usually some context to help out, but when single letters are used for math variables, the design has to be much more precise so that it's impossible (or at least very difficult) to mistake one for something else.

@mickep -- But I once knew a fellow who couldn't distinguish between upright (roman) and italic letters. His hobby was gathering mushrooms. I always wondered how it was that he was still among the living; extraordinary luck, I guess.

mickep

@barbarabeeton Hehe, nice. In this case the authors used it for no obvious reason. I'll mark it.

@barbarabeeton Hehe, italic mushrooms are perhaps no more poisonous than upright ones.

barbara beeton

@mickep -- But what about italic toadstools?

mickep

19:28

@barbarabeeton Oh no! :)

barbara beeton

@mickep -- I also knew a very kind, somewhat elderly Italian man who grew up gathering mushrooms with his family. Him, I trusted, and when he brought in some of his gatherings to share with his friends on the staff (he was the custodian for the AMS), we were delighted with his tasty treats.

mickep

@barbarabeeton It is very nice both to pick them and eat them. We always only go for the chanterelles.

David Carlisle

@mickep it's all part of the German plot to obscure the text by using beta for ss, swapping y and z and omitting spaces from between words.

mickep

@DavidCarlisle Oh, so now you blame the Germans... :)

Paulo Cereda

@samcarter ooh

@DavidCarlisle ooh

David Carlisle

19:33

@mickep Just a minor extension from the standard policy of blaming @UlrikeFischer

Paulo Cereda

@mickep ooh

@mickep mathematics? mushrooms? Perelman...?

David Carlisle

The well known expert on Word joins us.

5

mickep

@PauloCereda You are reading too much in the newspapers :)

Paulo Cereda

@mickep :)

barbara beeton

@mickep -- I wouldn't even trust myself to recognize chanterelles. The only one I'm sure of is bracket fungus -- "chicken of the woods" -- but even then, I get a second opinion.

Paulo Cereda

19:37

@mickep "You are disturbing me. I am picking mushrooms." :)

At least that's the quote credited to Perelman. :)

mickep

@PauloCereda I think that is what was written in the papers, yes.

Ulrich Diez

20:40

@DavidCarlisle I never found this practice of concatenating words by omitting spaces to be of use: You do not necessarily save space by doing this, and often you need more ink because, for example, there are rules about when to use the long s as a connecting letter in Fraktur script when concatenating and when not to. The German plot is to have vicious rules for everything. :-)

cis

21:08

@UlrikeFischer Can I change the parser so that only the moves of a white piece are taken?

I opened a question about this: https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/633958/how-to-use-only-the-moves-of-a-white-piece-in-board-output-and-chess-annotation

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$TeX - LaTeX$ TeX, LaTeX and Friends