Making MWE for text wrapping is the worst

I don't want to load the 8 million packages from my thesis, but if I don't, the wrapping changes

@barbarabeeton this one on tutorials texfaq.org/FAQ-tutbitslatex I did some emergency fixes removing some that have apparently vanished from the internet and adding a bit about learnlatex.org but it's not really a survey of current tutorials

@Canageek there are rather few parameters for linebreaking, if you take a paragraph from your thesis then set up a blank document with same value of \textwidth, font, \parfillskip, \leftskip, \rightskip, \tolerance \emergencystrech then you'll probably get same line breaking. If you don't there are a few other lesser ones, but basically it's a finite list of settings

@DavidCarlisle -- Okay, will read and comment via email. (First question: is TUG India still developing tutorials, or is what we've already got all there is/will be?)

@barbarabeeton no idea, I suspect the list is mostly what Robin found 20 years ago, sporadically updated from time to time...

Typing asdfasdf over and over to get it to the right width seems the most effective to simulate all of that so far

@DavidCarlisle -- Okay. I can check against what's on the TUG website, and at AMS. (I tried to keep the information there kind of current until about 3-4 years ago.)

@barbarabeeton mmmyeeaahh... that's not going to happen. I have the same reaction to syntax as to mathematics XD

@AlanMunn @Plergux ^^^^

@UlrikeFischer LOL! Oh yes. I don't know how many times I've had someone go "Hey, are you listening?" and I'm, like, "Oh... uh... sorry I didn't hear a word of what you said because I was too busy thinking about how you said it." :p

@JosephWright cool

@PabloGonzálezL bah

@UlrikeFischer I came here just to post that …

@HaraldHanche-Olsen ;-)

@UlrikeFischer Warum hast du mich nicht aufgelistet?

@HaraldHanche-Olsen LOL I was going to post that :D

@DavidCarlisle Als ein Pedant, der es liebt, Menschen zu korrigieren?

@UlrikeFischer my first attempt was "why didn't you include me" if the back-translation to English is any indication, that didn't go so well: "Why didn't you lock me in"

We are the knights who say ∋! ∋! ∋! ∋!

Sorry about that, I'll calm down now.

@DavidCarlisle oh

@DavidCarlisle the german meaning was ok, only a bit stiff. "aufgelistet" means mentioned in a list. "Warum hast du mich nicht genannt?" or "Warum hast du mich nicht eingeschlossen?" (but the second could also mean "locked in") would have been less formal.

@DavidCarlisle Es ist nicht meine Schuld

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Hmmm... could you cut down a tree with a surströmming? :p

@Plergux ooh /hums the lumberjack song

@PauloCereda Aaah, G'Day Bruce!

@Plergux ooh ladies and bruces. :)

@PauloCereda Bruces and brucesses? Brucettes? Brucines? Brucenas? :p

@Plergux Sheilas

@Plergux how to keep the linguist entertained

@DavidCarlisle Ah, of course! What a silly bunt. :p

@PauloCereda :p

@DavidCarlisle is it an error in the font?

\documentclass{book}
\begin{document}
$ a_{x\uparrow y}$
$ a_{x\downarrow y}$

\boldmath
$ a_{x\uparrow y}$
$ a_{x\downarrow y}$

\end{document}

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Bring us ... a shubbery

@DavidCarlisle the one has a large italic correction value:

(CHARACTER O 42
   (CHARWD R 0.65516)
   (CHARHT R 0.694445)
   (CHARDP R 0.194445)
   (CHARIC R 0.714683)
   )
(CHARACTER O 43
   (CHARWD R 0.65516)
   (CHARHT R 0.694445)
   (CHARDP R 0.194445)
   )

@UlrikeFischer yep:

@UlrikeFischer oh I see you posted similar here:-) However the most important point is resolved (see my comment to @campa under the question)

@DavidCarlisle yes, I tried directly to remove bm ...

@UlrikeFischer so for a workaround for the OP what's the easiest way to define uparrow with the italic correction of downarrow :(

@DavidCarlisle I just checked the other size, 5,6,7,8 all have this. I wonder why, and if it has been reported yet.

I was just going to comment hard to believe no one has ever reported this, amsfonts I suppose so @barbarabeeton might know.

@DavidCarlisle well so the question is what to do about it. (unicode-math is fine ...)

@UlrikeFischer [email protected] according to texdoc amsfonts appendix C but that also suggests contacting blue sky research so obviously hasn't been updated for a while/

@DavidCarlisle yes, but the ctan readme says the same. So it is probably the best to try this first, isn't it? Who should do it?

What's the square root of 4b^2? To be or not to be.

@UlrikeFischer I could

@DavidCarlisle crisp#:=13pt#; % diameter of serif corners in cmbsy7.mf is the obvious culprit.

or @egreg hmm I doubt anyone is going to want to regenerate the type1 versions from new metafont, do you think it's safe just to remove the italic correction in the pl file and regenerate the tfm?

@egreg although that setting presumably affects other characters too?

@egreg ? I see crisp#:=11pt#; % diameter of serif corners not 13? in /usr/local/texlive/2020/texmf-dist/fonts/source/public/amsfonts/cmextra/cmbsy7.mf

@DavidCarlisle I guess that's the simplest way is to remove the italic correction.

@DavidCarlisle It should obviously be 11/36pt#

@DavidCarlisle Yes, typo: I meant to write 11pt

@egreg ah yes, but then why is it just the italic correction, why haven't the characters got distorted serifs?

@DavidCarlisle There are no serifs in cm(b)sy. Only in \amalg

@egreg good point so rephrase the question, why do distorted, but non existent serifs change the italic correction:-)

@DavidCarlisle Because “up arrow” has italcorr .76asc_height#*slant+.5crisp#-u#; in the source sym.mf file.

@egreg grrrr

@DavidCarlisle I can't see a reason for that italic correction, though.

@egreg yes looks odd. If at all I would have expected a correction in the downarrow so that it doesn't touch the base of chars.

@UlrikeFischer And it seems tailored to yield a negative value for the standard fonts (so it is discarded). Knuth should have had a reason…

@egreg raise on the tex fonts list (which I don't think I'm on any more) ?

@DavidCarlisle I'm not there too.

@UlrikeFischer @DavidCarlisle The only character that has true serifs is \amalg and the effect can be seen

You can see that the corners are quite different.

@DavidCarlisle There doesn't seem to be a list any longer.

@DavidCarlisle @UlrikeFischer If I regenerate cmbsy7 with 11/36, I get no italic correction.

@egreg I was just doing the same:-) although I got a big diff in the pl file as one was using character c y notation and one character O 172, which is probably a config setting somewhere that I forgot

@egreg this I suppose tug.org/pipermail/math-font-discuss

@egreg although tex-live list more likely to reach people

@DavidCarlisle Yes, that list has been inactive for about eight years.

@egreg ams font support probably been inactive for longer, so seems appropriate:-)

The tfm files differ only in that italic correction. For the shape of \amalg I guess it's too late.

@egreg just mail direct to ams tech support and the gust latin modern and see what happens? You have best grip on the metafont it seems do you want to do it?

People could stop writing maths

@PauloCereda ∋! ∋! ∋!

@PauloCereda No: it's only small math that's the problem just write it bigger ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@HaraldHanche-Olsen <3

@DavidCarlisle And here we mathematicians spend our time trying to reduce big complicated formulas to small simple ones …

@DavidCarlisle Mail sent to the tex-live list

@egreg thanks

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas ^^ Animal Crossing has a turkey cook!

@PauloCereda much better than cooked turkey :)

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas exactly :)

> Sea otters have a little pouch near their chest where they keep their favorite rock.

ooh

@PauloCereda I suggest this pouch for your favourite rock: bagfactorys.com/img/p/1232-1815-thickbox.jpg

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas OOH

iPad owners:

@PauloCereda DING! end of line.

@PauloCereda Does this make the authentic sounds?

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas And the oily smell of the mechanism.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen :D

@HaraldHanche-Olsen ooh

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas ooh

@UlrikeFischer :) The hidden text provides a very nice description of the subtle difference too.

@AlanMunn the subtle difference is difficult to grasp for me ;-)

@UlrikeFischer It is indeed subtle, but if you're currently in the hole, you would definitely prefer 'down' and if you were reporting what happened after you're out, you could use 'in(to)' or 'down'. For me, there's a distinction between 'in' (locational) and 'into' (directional) which most American Eng. speakers don't have, in that their 'in' can do either.

@UlrikeFischer There's some other stuff going on there too which actually relates to my current research: I would prefer the present perfect to the past tense in the case where I'm still in the hole, but American Eng. seems to allow many more uses of the past where British Eng. would require the perfect.

@UlrikeFischer Can you see how well I live up to the stereotype. :)

@AlanMunn I see the difference but for me (also in german) the action "fell" pushes the meaning to the "directional" intention. "I'm sitting in a hole" would be different.

@UlrikeFischer Right, for me too, 'I fell in a hole' isn't really very good, I would need 'I fell into a hole'.

@AlanMunn I agree. To me "I fell in a hole" means "I was in a hole and I fell". "Fell down the hole" would be equivalent to "Fell into the hole".

@AlanMunn In Icelandic you could use "I fell in the hole" but then again, you could specify which by changing "the hole" :p "Ég datt í holuna" = "I fell into the hole" but "Ég datt í holunni" = "I fell in the hole" :p

@Plergux Exactly, but many speakers are perfectly fine to use 'in' as 'into'.

@Plergux Ah, case inflection in Icelandic. What joy. :)

@PauloCereda You never miss an opportunity, do you? :)

@AlanMunn To me that sounds tantamount to "Me fall in hole, big bang." :p

@AlanMunn Well, it's almost dinnertime. :p

@AlanMunn <3

@Plergux OH NO

Wait a minute

The duck sound in Icelandic is... bra bra?!

@AlanMunn They are in most case joyous. Though some times it's annoying when you start a sentence and realise when you get to the end that the noun you had in mind when you started wasn't the one you ended up using so you have to adjust your verbs and adjectives accordingly. :p

@PauloCereda Yes. And you can call a duck "brabra" as well (kiddie speak).

@Plergux ooooooooh

@PauloCereda Same goes for dogs. They go "voff" and you can call them "voffi". :)

@Plergux ooh

@PauloCereda Cows I think too. They say "muu" and they're "mumu" in kiddie speak :p

@Plergux ooh

@Plergux I like the sound of cows in Czech: bůůůůůůůůůůůů

:)

@PauloCereda I don't think there is one for cats. Though they say "mjá" and you could name it Mjási (Meowsie). :p

@PauloCereda lol, that looks strange. :p

@PauloCereda and sheep do béééééééééééééé

@yo' ooooooh

@yo' Well that sounds more reasonable. :p

@DavidCarlisle -- has been reported to tex-live, and I've answered. Sending separate mail to you.

@Plergux I'm relieved to hear that even native speakers can get into this kind of trouble. Getting to grips with all these inflections was such a pain when we learned about Old Norse back in high school. (It's all long since forgotten. A shame, really. Now that I will soon retire, maybe I should brush up on my almost non-existent old Norse and try to read some of the old sagas in the original language.)

@HaraldHanche-Olsen :) Well, you'd kill two birds with one stone there cause you could probably get away with using Old Norse for Icelandic :p I mean, you'd sound like some old guy from hutaheiti but you'd manage :p

@Plergux By the time I have learned enough Old Norse, I'll be an old guy from hutaheiti, so that's okay, then.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen :D

@Plergux Of course, I might have to learn one or two modern words too. Such as hljóðvarp and sjónvarp. I love those two words! They make so much sense.

@PauloCereda -- There's actually a protective case for an iPad that includes a keyboard; it's the same size and shape as the iPad surface. We have one, and it makes it a lot easier to enter text. It doesn't have a number pad, but nothing significant is absent.

@AlanMunn -- There are more of us ... Actually, for me, "fall in" is a military directive for keeping order in a parade.

@AlanMunn -- What if it's a very shallow hole, just deep enough to sprain an ankle? Perhaps in that case one would fall over the hole. (A few weeks ago, in the dark, Gordon tripped [...] a little hole in our driveway and busted his glasses. What's the proper preposition for that situation?)

@HaraldHanche-Olsen You can add one to that: "hlaðvarp" for "podcast" :p

@HaraldHanche-Olsen "hlað" is your yard or driveway :p

@barbarabeeton I would use 'on' there I think.

@AlanMunn -- I think the same, but it does sound peculiar. Thanks for the informed answer.

@barbarabeeton My brain immediately went "but that's not a hole!" but I can't for the life of me find a better word :p

@Plergux -- If you could see our driveways (which is paved, but old and worn), you would find (small) holes, gravel, loose chunks of concrete and blacktop, ... It's rather an obstacle course to traverse on foot, but not usually dangerous if one is paying attention. Unless there's a spate of freezing rain, with the temperature just below the freezing point. Which is why I now have a titanium hip. Someday we'll get it replaced with permeable pavers.

@barbarabeeton Oh no! But I think what might be interfering is that in Icelandic there is a separate word for "a hole with a bottom" like the kind you could fall into (hola), and "a hole you can poke your finger through" like you might find in your shirt (gat). So maybe my brain is trying to figure out whether it would be a hola or a gat and can't find an acceptable solution. :p

@Plergux That's way too modern for an old fart like me.

@Plergux By the way, in Norwegian we say hutiheita (or perhaps huttiheita). So that's hutaheiti in íslenska? Funny how the vowels move around. And it makes me wonder how old that word is.

@Plergux Yes, Portuguese has the same distinction: 'buraco' vs 'furo', but the shallow vs. deep distinction isn't that either, although in Portuguese I guess you could distinguish that with the diminutive on 'buraco'.

@barbarabeeton ooh

@HaraldHanche-Olsen well, no. I actually found that in a dictionary! islex.arnastofnun.is/is/ord/32665/tungumal/NO-N I guess they swapped it around XD

@Plergux ;) “rassgat” seems to have quite a number of different connotations in Icelandic. Anyhow, it turns out both huttiheita and hutaheiti are used in Norwegian. A dictionary claims the word comes from older English “Otaheite”, which in its turn is an older name for Tahiti, being the canonical far away place, I suppose. Reference.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen :D Yes, it's the swiss army knife of words. :p Ah, like Timbuktu kind of thing. Or, as you could say in Icelandic, Langtíburtistan. :p (Farawayistan).

@Plergux Langtvekkistan here. Same thing.

@Plergux Speaking of Timbuktu, I am listening to Ali Farka Touré while preparing an exam. The music is nice, the other part … not so much.

@cfr Land area UK: 242,495 km². Canada has islands larger then your entire country. (Baffin Island: 507,451 km²)

No kidding you don't have a problem if someone assumes all UK based mirrors are close to you XD

@Canageek It looks even better on a Mercator map.

@Canageek The joke I heard once was that you could drop Denmark in the northern parts of Canada and it would take the Royal Canadian Air Force a week to find it.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen I mean, sure, but he goes home at 5 pm

@Canageek And there's a tea break in the afternoon, for sure?

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Nah, we aren't that British anymore.

Let's say two weeks, then.

@Canageek oh

@HaraldHanche-Olsen The stereotypical Canadian caffeinated drink is Tim Horton's coffee

@Canageek So I lived in Toronto for a year, and missed that? Shocking.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen It is rather. o.0

@Canageek Oh wait, now I remember. That was before my coffee drinking days. I first acquired a taste for coffee at a conference in Romania, a couple years after my Toronto stint.

Given that in the city I grew up in of 100K people there are at LEAST 12 Tim Hortons

Sorry, 32 Tim Hortons

Misread what page I was on

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Trust me, you're not missing much.

@Canageek I bet they weren't quite that big in 1980, though. They opened the 500th store in 1991, I see.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Oh yeah, that would do it. By the late 90s their Canadianness was a common topic on Canadian comedy shows like Royal Canadian Air Farce (even though they've been owned by American companies most of their history)

@AlanMunn I was coming to the same conclusion myself. Looks like the Canadian version of Burger King and Starbuck's rolled into one.

Whoops, it's getting late. No more coffee for me. I am going to bed.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen ugh, I hate exams. when I was teaching i had a strict no-exam policy. :p

@Canageek heh heh heh... love the Arrogant Worms. :p

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas amazon.com/dp/B08DG7FB61 :)