TeX, LaTeX and Friends

barbara beeton

02:07

@DavidCarlisle -- You may remember that I objected to this when it was changed: tex.stackexchange.com/q/548602. Too late to do anything now.

barbara beeton

03:45

@PhelypeOleinik -- The conversion has started. In the example I just posted, I just entered the url, but it reports the title. So it may be useless to add any more examples. But maybe time to start checking.

David Carlisle

06:11

@barbarabeeton ? that is user error with or without the change. the change only got mentioned as he had an old release so needed to add the negative space as well as fixing the markup

Paulo Cereda

08:43

@barbarabeeton ooh we sail the ocean blue! I know part of that musical thingy

David Carlisle

@JosephWright @UlrikeFischer strangely the bbc doesn't blame you for bricking people's phones with colour space conversions bbc.co.uk/news/technology-52891650

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ooh

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle at some time if will blame us for filling people's phone with pdf's ;-)

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer that is definitely your fault:-)

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ooh

Ulrike Fischer

08:56

@DavidCarlisle ;-). I got a message from Thanh over Karl about a pdftex change. If it breaks pdftex one can blame too ;-)

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle :)

@UlrikeFischer Change?

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright It is about the fatal error if a link ends on a different box listing. tug.org/pipermail/tex-live/2018-November/042759.html. It should be converted in a warning - the area is then perhaps wrong but you get at least a pdf. Karl seems to have added tests also for my other requests: tug.org/svn/pdftex/branches/stable/tests. If they make changes we need to convince luatex to add them too.

skullpatrol

#ShutDownAcademia #ShutDownSTEM

6

Joseph Wright

09:15

@UlrikeFischer Ah, right, I see

Szabolcs

10:55

If I use \begin{figure}[p], the figure goes on a separate page at the end of the document. Can I put it on a page right here, not at the very end?

Paulo Cereda

@Szabolcs perhaps using h?

Szabolcs

I would like to put the figure on its own, separate page. But I'd like that page not to be at the very end of the document. I would like it to be around the position where the \being{figure} is. Is this possible?

Paulo Cereda

I usually go with htbp (here, top, bottom, page)

@Szabolcs Oh sorry, I got it wrong. :)

Szabolcs

Is it even normal that it goes to the end? If not, could someone just tell me so I can avoid making a minimal example ... ?

This is the point where I would be quite upset with LaTeX if I didn't have to use MS Word just two weeks ago ...

AlexG

@Szabolcs You could try with \renewcommand{\textfraction}{1.0} in the document preamble. As far as I know, pages with text and floats are not allowed then. All floats should go on a page of their own as soon as possible. Maybe this works for you.

Szabolcs

11:10

But it's only some figures I need to put on their own page, not all of them

Szabolcs

11:30

It is actually a begin{table}, not a figure. Sorry.

David Carlisle

@Szabolcs it would normally go on the next page, you have something else forcing it to the end.

Szabolcs

Can someone tell me if it is normal that as soon as I use p, it goes all the way to the end of the document? Reserving a page for it is such a simple thing, why does it have to be such a major pain in LateX? It's been 45 minutes now

@DavidCarlisle Thank you!

David Carlisle

@AlexG if the float has [p] then \textfraction will not be consulted.

@Szabolcs latex keeps all your tables in order, so if one goes to the end then all the following ones will, so you need to check why the first one is not being placed (being too big for the page for example)

Szabolcs

@DavidCarlisle Is it possible to get LaTeX to keep two figures on the same page, one top, one bottom?

Currently, it puts my fig1 on p1, fig2 on p2, fig3 on p3, fig4 and fig5 on p4 (where I can get it to be top and bottom).

I'd like fig1 on p1, fig2 and fig3 on p2, fig4 on p3, fig5 on p4. Is there a simple way? (If it's complicated, never mind)

Basically, I'd like to force it to put my figures of choice together on the same page, not some figures it selects on its own.

David Carlisle

@Szabolcs make \floatpagefraction bigger than the first figure, but if you want to force some figures to float together simply put them in the same figure environment.

@Szabolcs by default \floatpagefraction is 0.5 so if fig4 is > .5\textheight then page 4 will be shipped out without waiting for fig5

Ulrike Fischer

12:00

@DavidCarlisle @JosephWright if we can get primitives that do the same as the two xetex specials in the following example. How should they be named? Current suggestions are "\pdfnolink and \pdflink like xetex? or rather \pdfrunninglinkoff and \pdfrunninglinkon?"

\documentclass[a4paper]{article}
\usepackage{fancyhdr}
\pagestyle{fancy}
\cfoot{some longer text that should not be linked}
\usepackage{ifxetex}
 \ifxetex
  \cfoot{\special{pdf:nolink}some longer text that should not be
linked\special{pdf:link}}
 \fi
\usepackage{hyperref}

\begin{document}
\vspace*{48\baselineskip}
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
\href{xxxxx}{link link link link }
\end{document}

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer Looking at the backend code again, I realise that I can gain performance in various places: when we made it all internal, we ruled out needing to worry about floating point values needing re-evaluating

@UlrikeFischer, @DavidCarlisle Expect some checkins later :)

@UlrikeFischer I'd go with \pdfnolink: as far as possible, similar names are good!

Ulrike Fischer

12:25

@JosephWright I'm always worried if new primitives are too short and to obvious. \pdflink has a few hits for example in texinfo.tex and cwebmac.tex

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Hmm

Paulo Cereda

13:45

@barbarabeeton twitter.com/In_Otter_News2/status/1270106190270337025

David Carlisle

14:04

@UlrikeFischer should we fix hyperref not to lose breakpoints?

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle if you know where we are loosing them. Is it the whatsit of the anchor?

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer I was just wondering whether to look when I saw your comment, yes it will be the whatsit but it could/should probably add a penalty0 or something if there was a breakpoint there, I may look later.

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle A simpler example is this. But the question is naturally if it is a good idea to issue the \refstepcounter there. The anchor is then probably not where you want it.

\documentclass{article}

\usepackage{hyperref}  %
\textheight 3cm

\begin{document}
\begin{minipage}{5cm}
\rule{1cm}{2cm}
\end{minipage}

\refstepcounter{section}
\begin{minipage}{5cm}
\rule{1cm}{2cm}
\end{minipage}

\end{document}

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer but nasser's example is an [H] float so the refstepcounter is inside the box isn't it?

Ulrike Fischer

14:29

@DavidCarlisle No it is outside. algorithm starts with some init code which does a \refstepcounter {algocfline} and then processes the figure (but there could be more counter inside the figure, I didn't check).

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer ah OK, so we could blame algorithm (but might be easier to get hyperref to check...)

David Carlisle

14:42

@UlrikeFischer \Hy@RestoreLastskip ->\protect \nobreak

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle but only in \ifhmode or not?

David Carlisle

\ifvmode
\ifdim\lastskip=\z@
\let\Hy@RestoreLastskip\nobreak

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle I didn't found that place yet. Where is it?

Ah inside \Hy@SaveLastskip. And where is that used?

David Carlisle

in some cases we could replace the skip=0 test by testing that the etex last node type is a skip then explicit skips of 0pt would be seen, but here there is no skip as it is after the \par from the first minipage but before the next para starts so before \parskip is added, adding a breakpoint.

@UlrikeFischer tracingall says

\Hy@DestName #1#2->\pdfdest name{#1}#2\relax
#1<-\Hy@pstringDest
#2<-\@pdfview
{\pdfdest}

\Hy@pstringDest ->section.1

\@pdfview ->XYZ
{\relax}

\Hy@RestoreLastskip ->\protect \nobreak

@UlrikeFischer if the previous node is a non discardable item it should just add itself immediatedly after that then it won't change the breakpoints, by adding \nobreak there it is preventing the glue that is added later making a breakpoint.

Ulrike Fischer

Yes. So why is there an explicit \nobreak if \ifdim\lastskip=\z@?

David Carlisle

14:51

@UlrikeFischer because it's wrong, I think.

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle the dtx says

%    Inserting a \cmd{\special} command to set a
%    destination destroys the \cmd{\lastskip} value.

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer I'll look later but I think with etex it can be made better as you know there is no glue there and you are immediately after the first minipage box, so you know that \lastskip would do nothing useful anyway.

@UlrikeFischer I know it's a bit modern to be suggesting using etex primitives.

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle ;-). Any comment on the naming for the ever more modern primitive to all a link to stop?

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer so the usage is \pdfstartlink ... stufff \newwthing no link here \newthingb resume link \pdfendlink ??

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle yes. (I haven't asked yet what will happen, if there is a \pdfstartlink inside the \newthing stuff, with xelatex one gets nonsense. But even if nesting don't work it would be already quite an improvement.).

David Carlisle

15:03

@UlrikeFischer actually the existing ones end in link so maybe pdfstoplink \pdfresumelink

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle sounds good.

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer oh edited, meant to give a second suggestion..

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle yes that's fine to.

Ulrike Fischer

21:02

@DavidCarlisle I did run the hyperref tests with your change. There are three failures because of the missing penalties but all looks ok.

David Carlisle

21:22

@UlrikeFischer was short of time but I want to think about it a bit more, it probably should be testing any discardable item not just glue, but even in the glue case I don't currently see why the nobreak is right

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