I have a couple of expl3 questions:

What's the `expl3` equivalent of:

\if@filesw
  \write\@mainaux{%
    \string\DCPFieldAddToAnnots { #1 }
  }%
\fi

And what is the recommended way of writing `expl3` macros to the aux file?

i.e., what if I wanted to use:

\if@filesw
  \write\@mainaux{%
    \string\__dcp_field_add_to_annotations { #1 }
  }%
\fi

Do I just have to use:

\if@filesw
  \write\@mainaux{%
    \string \ExplSyntaxOn \string \__dcp_field_add_to_annotations { #1 } \string \ExplSyntaxOff
  }%
\fi

Or is there a better way?

@DavidPurton basically you will either have to use latex2e macro names there or add \ExplSyntaxOn/Off. But I have a bit the impression that you try to create the macros I'm just trying to get rid in hyperref.

@DavidPurton or \csname __dcp_field_add_to_annotations:n\endcsname

@UlrikeFischer I also want to have a form in my document without hyperref. There was a problem in my implementation that whenever a field was set in a box but not used (e.g., when putting them in a tabularx), it would still add a reference to the /Fields value of the AcroForm dictionary, resulting in a malformed PDF. Using the auxfile is how hyperref gets around this problem (although, I confess that I don't quite understand why nothing is written to the aux file in this case).

@DavidPurton I don't mean that you should use hyperref, I think too that the form code should be extracted from it. Only that you seem to reimplement its low-level code we are just trying to replace by the pdf resource management. Don't you want to try with the new code?

@UlrikeFischer I guess I can :) I usually try to run TeXLive just from Debian testing (not Vanilla TeXLive)

However, I am learning a lot about PDF.

For my current project I only need very simple forms with checkboxes, radio buttons and text fields, which I now have working in a satisfactory way

But maybe I can give the new code a test run

Especially since I now have a working implementation that I can use while I fiddle with other things

What do I need in order to test your new code?

@DavidPurton write me a mail.

quack

Hey,

Mainfolder
 |- Fonts
 |- Folder <---- I am here...

\newfontfamily{\myfont}[
Path={./Fonts/},
Scale=1]{split-msyh.ttf}

@cis Which is the working path of your engine's call?

@cis do you use <engine> StrokeOrderFont\<file> or <engine> <file>? In which directory are you when calling LaTeX?

@cis if in the subfolder the relative path ./Fonts/ would be searched in that subfolder, not in the folder above it. And you can't do ../Fonts/, as the engines usually don't accept the parent directory. So you'd have to use an absolute path like so: C:/Users/ccc/Desktop/Test/Japanisch/Fonts.

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz could you look at the german titles in learnlatex? I made a first try to translate, but I'm not sure about everything (e.g. the "more on" pages).

\newfontfamily{\myfont}[
Path=//C:/Users/ccc/Desktop/Test/Japanisch/Fonts/,
%Path=/../Fonts/,
 Scale=1]{split-msyh.ttf}

whatever I do: "File not found: //C:/Users/ccc/Desktop/Test/Japanisch/Fonts/split-msyh.ttf.".

Path=C:/Users/ccc/Desktop/Test/Japanisch/Fonts/,

same...

:(

It's best to avoid the Path= altogether, it just makes the document nonportable (but I'd expect it to work without the // at the start, but why can't you put the font somewhere in the default font input path?

Why is this penuntilate dot here:

"File not found: /../Fonts/split-msyh.ttf.".

@DavidCarlisle I can do it anytime. But it has to work somehow ...

@cis that looks as if it is looking for a font with a dot in its name, do you get that from the code above?

and then

"File not found: /../Fonts/split-msyh.ttf.".

@cis well Path=/../Fonts/, is wrong that's an absolute path starting with /

@DavidCarlisle Yes, I am sure that is wrong

@cis \setmainfont{Kalpurush.ttf}[Path=../Fonts/] works fine.

@UlrikeFischer @cis didn't provide a usable example but I think this luaotfload message is wrong

\documentclass{article}

\usepackage{fontspec}
\newfontfamily{\myfont}[
%Path=/C/Users/ccc/Desktop/Test/Japanisch/Fonts/,
Path=/../Fonts/,
Scale=1]{split-msyh.ttf}

\begin{document}

\myfont x
\end{document}

xelatex says

(/usr/local/texlive/2020/texmf-dist/tex/latex/fontspec/fontspec.cfg)))kpathsea:make_tex: Invalid filename `[/../Fonts/split-msyh.ttf]/OT', contains '['


! Package fontspec Error: The font "split-msyh" cannot be found.

so confusing message from make_tex but fontspec message clear

lualatex says

luaotfload | db : Reload initiated (formats: otf,ttf,ttc); reason: "File not found: /../Fonts/split-msyh.ttf.".

! Package fontspec Error: The font "split-msyh" cannot be found.

@DavidCarlisle yes, but why do think it is wrong?

@UlrikeFischer so the message @cis mentioned with a . in .ttf." from luaotfload before the fontspec one

@DavidCarlisle you mean the second period? That is the end of the sentence.

@UlrikeFischer well its confusing as luaotfload gives the path unquoted ending in a . then the whole message is quoted and ends with another .

So lualatex does not work :(

@UlrikeFischer "File not found: /../Fonts/split-msyh.ttf.".

@MarcelKrüger ^^

But it is so hard to use a ttf-font in pdflatex.

@cis I does work. I tried. And lualatex does load the font <../Fonts/Kalpurush.ttf>.

@UlrikeFischer ! error: (file ) (type 2): cannot find file ''

\documentclass{article}

\usepackage{fontspec}
%\newfontfamily{\myfont}[
%%Path=/C/Users/ccc/Desktop/Test/Japanisch/Fonts/,
%Path=/../Fonts/,
%Scale=1]{split-msyh.ttf}

 \setmainfont{split-msyh.ttf}[Path=../Fonts/]
\begin{document}
ABC

%\myfont ABC
\end{document}

@UlrikeFischer I don't know your email. Is it public somewhere?

@cis you don't get this error if a font is not there at all. Then it looks like this:

luaotfload | db : Reload initiated (formats: otf,ttf,ttc); reason: "File not fou
nd: ../Fonts/blub.ttf.".

! Package fontspec Error: The font "blub" cannot be found.

@DavidPurton people seem always be able to find one of my mail address

@UlrikeFischer Can I give a zip-file with the folder structure and the example files and link here (google-drive)?

@cis start with a simpler case, does it work if you don't use Path and put the ttf in the same folder as your document?

@cis report that (with a proper test file) to the luaotfload maintaners.

Or simpler, just blame @UlrikeFischer

@cis I just tried with a renamed font and had no problem at all: <../Fonts/split-msyh.ttf> is included. Do you have another version of this font around from your various tests?

@UlrikeFischer what is that type 2 error mentioned above, does that indicate a malformed font?

@DavidPurton writing to the aux file is suppressed during tabularx trials, you can suppress writing to your pdf objects in the same way

@DavidCarlisle I need to suppress things even in a simple case like \setbox0=\hbox{\insertmycheckbox}. Will the method in tabularx help me do this?

@DavidPurton well you choose: you can do \ifx\@footnotetext\TX@trial@ftn I'm in a trial do nothing, or do something safe \else \setbox0=\hbox{\insertmycheckbox}\fi

@DavidPurton the package ought to offer an \ifTXtrial that you could use rather than testing if footnotes have been disabled, but it doesn't:-)

@DavidPurton hm, one certainly should think what happens when fields are stored like this, but I don't get an invalid pdf from it, preflight doesn't complain. It is simply a pdf with field sitting around without related annotation. Do you have some complete example?

@UlrikeFischer The logic is this: The annotation is created, then the reference to this is stored in a clist. Then at the end of the document, I was adding the entire contents of the clist to /Fields [ … ]. But unless the field is actually typeset, the annotation object didn't get added to the PDF. So you end up with lots of references to objects in /fields [ … ] that don't exist in the PDF. Acrobat did complain about errors for me.

@UlrikeFischer, This is what I now have, which I think mirrors what `hyperref` does:

% # form set up

\cs_new_protected:Nn \__dcp_acroform:
  {
    \clist_if_empty:NF \g__dcp_field_annots_clist
      {
        \pdf_object_new:nn { acroform } { dict }
        \pdf_object_write:nx { acroform }
          {
            /Fields ~ [ ~ \clist_use:Nn \g__dcp_fields_clist { ~ } ~ ] \iow_newline:
            /DA ~ (/Helv ~ 6.5 ~ Tf ~ 0 ~ g) \iow_newline:
            /DR ~ << ~ /Font ~ << ~
              /Helv ~ \pdf_object_ref:n { helv } ~ >> ~ >>

@DavidPurton you just found another reason why my setup is better ;-). Form fields consist actually of two parts: the field dictionary and one or more kids which are (normally) annotations. The kids are the actual representation on the page. If there is only one kid one can merge both objects. That is what you (and hyperref) are doing. But it also means that the field dict is missing if you don't output the annotation part. My code is always writing the field dict separately.

@cis yes c:/windows/fonts is normally used.

@DavidCarlisle No, that error indicates that the font didn't exist, but it was still passed to LuaTeX by the fontloader. (That indicates an outdated font cache.) There's a good chance that that issue is already fixed in luaotfload dev (The current code more consistently checks that looked up fonts actually exist)

@DavidCarlisle sorry, what you're doing exceeds my TeX understanding... I'll stick with what I'm doing at the moment with the aux file until I move to @UlrikeFischer 's methods

@UlrikeFischer if I don't forget about it, I'll do this evening.

Are split and aligned environments the same?

@antshar no

@DavidCarlisle I can't see the difference.

@antshar use aligned unless you are sure you need split, spilt can be embedded in an outer align and "merges" itself into the outer alignment in interesting ways, aligned is like align and can have as many columns as you need

@UlrikeFischer Is this code official and documented already? I think I will need to make adjustments to my packages then.

@AlexG well in part. the core is now quite stable, but it currently depends on some internal code which we are developing for the shipout hooks. Around it there are still some open questions, not so much about the code itself, more about the naming and the organization in modules. I can sent you details by mail if you want.

anyone on ubuntu how knows why the main fmtutil.cnf is not used here tex.stackexchange.com/q/546106/2388?

@UlrikeFischer Thank you, Ulrike. I think I'll wait until the function names are stable.

How many pt(points) in one ~(space)?

@antshar it depends on current font...

@Rmano How can I find it out?

@antshar google "latex width of text": tex.stackexchange.com/questions/18576/…

@Rmano thanks!

@antshar probably faster: tex.stackexchange.com/a/367362/38080 \setbox0\hbox{~}\the\wd0\relax

@Rmano Thank you!

@cis In the "Generate Fonts" dialog, Options subdialog for OpenType fonts, you can enable "Save Comments" in the PfaEdit table. This tells fontforge to store the comments in the font file. By default there is no code for accessing this data, but it wouldn't be that hard in LuaTeX if you are motivated to parse some OpenType tables.

@cis what would you gain if you know that there are "three strokes"? Wouldn't it make more sense to add some color layers so that you can color the parts?

@MarcelKrüger I would do it, but I fear I don't know how to do.

@UlrikeFischer At this moment, my font looks this way:

@UlrikeFischer I fully agree with Ulrike that color layers would probably be a better solution.

@MarcelKrüger Thats no bad idea. If you want that in a document, so I think I could realize that with my split-font:

If you mean something like that:

But to do this in Fontforge could be much work.

@cis Yes, look at "COLR" based color fonts. That are fonts where multiple "layers" (strokes in your case") are written in the font file using different glyph slots and then every layer can be colored independently. (Fontforge doesn't support them directly right now IIRC so you might need some post-processing.)

How can I force-evaluate a macro?

I am using \newcommand\main{\currfiledir}, but that re-evaluates currfiledir whenever I use main

I want it to be evaluated once and forall

@antshar a space isn't a fixed width it varies to justify paragraphs

@ComFreek \let\main\currfiledir

Thanks

I noticed \currfiledir does not even contain an absolute path

So I cannot use it

@ComFreek or if there are further macros in the expansion of currfiledir then \edef\main{\currfiledir}

@ComFreek tex has no knowledge of the current directory so it only reallly knows absolute files or files relative to the input

oh, a pity

At least I now got my downgrade from xelatex to pdflatex working.

@ComFreek you need \currfileabsdir (and \usepackage[abspath]{currfile} and should use --recorder).

@MarcelKrüger @MarcelKrüger @UlrikeFischer Yes, sounds good. Maybe you could give me a MWE, say example.ttf, with only a letter 'A' or something. And I could reproduce that for all Kana-signs.

@UlrikeFischer ah --recorder as passed to pdflatex?

A bummer, I cannot use custom arguments as publishers often refrain from allowing passing custom arguments :(

@ComFreek why do you need the absolute path to the current document?

Because otherwise my setup with subfiles and co breaks

I think it's a subfiles bug

@ComFreek It sounds like the wrong fix.

For me it sounded like the fastest fix back then

:)

@ComFreek reading files by absolute path has security issues and can be disabled so certainly it's best not to do that on any file you distribute.

Yeah, your objection sounds reasonable

oh that was unexpected

)) ( FP-EVAL ( FP-UPN ) ) ( FP-EVAL ( FP-UPN ) ) ( FP-EVAL ( FP-UPN ( FP-SUB )
) ) ( FP-EVAL ( FP-UPN ) ) ( FP-EVAL ( FP-UPN ( FP-SUB ) ) ) ( FP-EVAL
( FP-UPN ) )) (./cc907.aux) ABD: EveryShipout initializing macros
(/usr/local/texlive/2020/texmf-dist/tex/context/base/mkii/supp-pdf.mkii
[Loading MPS to PDF converter (version 2006.09.02).]
) (/usr/local/texlive/2020/texmf-dist/tex/latex/epstopdf-pkg/epstopdf-base.sty
(/usr/local/texlive/2020/texmf-dist/tex/latex/latexconfig/epstopdf-sys.cfg))Segmentation fault (core dumped)

@DavidCarlisle ooh a tree

@PauloCereda well a core dump was what I was referring to..

@DavidCarlisle the eval thingy was far more interesting. :)

@DavidCarlisle -- Eek! I wonder what this person thinks \verb is supposed to do!

@barbarabeeton actually that is an artifact of them trying to format the question. The OP doesn't want verb at all. wants a typeset sqrt in one place and a square root evaluated by pgf math in another from the same input

@barbarabeeton get a chance to look at my lesson 10? (I just fixed a few typos)

@DavidCarlisle ooh typos

@PauloCereda hard to imagine how they got there

@DavidCarlisle -- looking at it now. (mislaid the link, but have recovered it.)

@barbarabeeton thanks

@DavidCarlisle tpyos in emacs

@PauloCereda oh comment earlier that you would like...

@PauloCereda vv

@DavidCarlisle oh no

@MarcelKrüger I will have a look in it tomorow.

@DavidCarlisle -- Well, there were more. New list on the way -- but they keep getting smaller!

@barbarabeeton if the basic form is moving in the right direction we can move it to the main site and then tidy up there.

@barbarabeeton but if an -m3 list is coming I'll wait for that:-)

@DavidCarlisle -- No -m3; I think this takes care of almost everything ... except for a few typos that I really would like to see fixed. ("sans erif"???) I like it pretty well; I don't remember where it's recommended to read the package documentation and will have to check again for that.

@barbarabeeton Ive added a link to amsldoc at texdoc.net

Thanks I'll make a PR

@PauloCereda Don quak, If you have some time check yesterday's messages in the chat, some arara was discussed :)

@schtandard that's odd why doesn't it open the pdf? here with tl2020 it opens scrguien.pdf

@schtandard sounds like a miktex bug. I would open an issue there (but I can't test, I deleted the miktex doc folder to save disc space on my laptop.

@DavidCarlisle for larger packages with more than on documentation file miktex opens first a html file with links.

@DavidCarlisle Yeah, that's different with MiKTeX. Here, it opens a HTML page for many packages with links to the appropriate documents, at least when there are several.

@UlrikeFischer Thanks, I will do that.

@schtandard I know nothing about miktex:-)

@DavidCarlisle you know the most important part: update in ...

@UlrikeFischer oh yes I know that of course.

@DavidCarlisle Yeah, likewise for me with TeX Live. I wanted to give it a shot and installed it on my work PC. But then there was this pandemic, so I haven't been there in a couple of months to actually see what's different. (Well, except for texdoc..)

@schtandard I have been using texlive since it was called "the unix tex tape" (and came on a very large round tape reel:-) then tetex then texlive. never really saw the need to look at miktex, apart from anything else it would mean admitting that I was on windows (until recently)

@DavidCarlisle I don't see one either. But I've heard some people around here singing TeX Live's praises, so I wanted to try it. Until now, I was only slightly annoyed at having to install all of it at once and having to do that again when the new version was released.

@DavidCarlisle -- where is the updated lesson-10 posted to be checked? Is that to happen after your PR? (I still see only "sanserif" or "sans erif"; both flawed.)

@schtandard they do actually advertise a way of upgrading from one year to the next without a full install but they don't recommend it doing a full install is easier maintenance wise and some years if they want to change the structure of the package metadata database you have to do a full install, i do a new install anyway as I keep the old one around for testing and just delete them if I need the space (currently I have 2016-2020)

@barbarabeeton that's odd I'm sure I fixed that already) the test version is online as davidcarlisle.github.io/ll/en/lesson-10 (but has "erif" and the diff is waiting for review (from Joseph most likely) at github.com/learnlatex/learnlatex.github.io/pull/36 I'll push that fix to the PR there.

@barbarabeeton in the git it looks okay, I see sans serif, but it seems not to be online.

@DavidCarlisle How do you call the binaries from the older versions? Do you have to specify the full path?

@schtandard for a one off just use the full path, or if I am doing multiple tests just set the PATh in a shell so one shell is running the old one and one the new

@barbarabeeton a @UlrikeFischer said, but now I can't see why the github ages view at ll hasn't updated

@DavidCarlisle Ah, that make sense.

@barbarabeeton @UlrikeFischer fixed at davidcarlisle.github.io/ll/en/lesson-10#fonts-in-math-mode

@DavidCarlisle -- Thanks. I'll check now.

@schtandard using /usr/local/texlive/2019/bin/x86_64-cygwin/pdflatex file works but you have to be careful as if for example it calls epstopdf to convert an eps file it will use the current path, so the 2020 one similarly if you use xetex it will use the old xetex but the new xdvipdfmx, so setting the PATH is safer really.

@DavidCarlisle Thanks for the clarification.

@DavidCarlisle I took the opportunity to have a look at learnlatex.org. Very nice. I will add that to my list of recommended links for my LaTeX "pupils".

@schtandard we are working on it:-) (my ll version linked above is a throw-away repository just so I can experiment with the back end scripting in a live site, so don't link to that)

@DavidCarlisle Didn't plan on it. Thanks for the effort. Material for absolute beginners is a niche that has not been filled out very well in the past, I think. The best resources I know to point people to (other then giving them a personal introduction) is probably Overleaf.

(The thanks go to all contributors, obviously.)

@schtandard yes we had the overleaf tutorial as some initial ideas, they have also been helpful giving me an updated API last week so you can submit multi-file projects via a multi-part POST form, the latexonline maintainer has also updated his system (form texlive 2014 to texlive2020 so some of the luatex examples (and the final gallery of chess and music etc) all work on the site.

@DavidCarlisle Cool. I sometimes get quite annoyed with Overleaf, when people using it ask for help and I don't have convenient access to all of the auxiliary files. But in the end, I'm really glad they are making LaTeX more accessible for people who are intimidated by the thought of having to set up an installation themselves.

@schtandard yes. I'm also really impressed with latexonline, I'd experimented with a couple of other systems which I'd got more or less working but Karl mentioned this in passing as a possibility and it "just worked" I'd switched the site over to using it in quarter of an hour or so. it was a bit old so for example latex not defaulting to utf-8 and luatex was broken, but he's updated that now to tl2020 ...

... having it run in the page and requiring no sign up or login of any sort lowers the barrier even more we hope.

Good evening and good LaTeX.

In your opinion my answer is correct or is there a mistake? Just a curiosity.

@DavidCarlisle Sounds great. I've never heard of that and can't find anything on latex.online. Is it a service like Overleaf?

hi, everybody

@DavidCarlisle Also, I just tried pressing the LaTeX.Online button on learnlatex.org. When the browser is configured not to open PDF files but ask what to do with them (save or open in application), there seems to be an infinite loop generating a new file and corresponding dialogue every few seconds.

Don't know if that's easily fixed (especially on your end), though.

@Sebastiano -- The problem I see is that \sim is not an accent. Some form of \tilde is more appropriate. maybe \widetilde. This is not just about how something looks, it's about what it means. Imagine that you can't see the output, but have to rely on an audio assist. The \sim would only cause confusion. This is a problem that many authors just aren't aware of, and it is a serious difficulty for the developers who are trying to make LaTeX outut "accessible".

@schtandard yes I know happens mostly on mobile, hoping to either get that fixed at that end or feature detect at my side but it's running in a cross-site iframe so the outer page has very little information about what's happening. The site itself is latexonline.cc

@schtandard what browser, is that? I have seen it fail but the only case where I have seen it loop is firefox mobile oh thats a desktop firefox configured not to use the built in pdf reader?

Firefox on a Windows 10 PC. I have specially configured it to show that dialogue instead of opening PDFs itself.

@DavidCarlisle Exactly.

@schtandard I wonder if the page can detect that in javascript

@DavidCarlisle Possibly. But they could certainly just remove the infinite loop in favor of a "Recompile" button for when something goes wrong.

@schtandard yes but it's not "they" it's one bloke doing it for free as an open source project, and I've already asked for lots of features:-) so checking at my side as well as a backup might be needed, something like this pinlady.net/PluginDetect/PDFjs it seems to be a firefox problem chrome mobile doesn't have built in pdf either but it doesn't loop it downloads the pdf (to some weird place) but you can then open a pdf reader and view it.

@DavidCarlisle -- Final cleanup notes sent. You snuck in a "teh". but I got it!

@DavidCarlisle That's true. I just tried it in Opera and Chrome. They don't have the option to show a dialogue, it's just "view PDF" or "download immediately", which seems to be handled alright.

@DavidCarlisle If it's just one bloke, you're probably right not to request too many features.

@barbarabeeton thanks

@barbarabeeton but he missed spelling "they" as "teyh". I give it 3/10.

@yo' -- tsk, tsk!

@barbarabeeton how are you doing?

@barbarabeeton the additions are now in the PR for the main site so should get merged tomorrow probably

@yo' -- Oh, we're doing okay. I've become rather a hermit, and even my tai chi class has been suspended. Most of my social activities were online already, but we had several trips canceled, and I don't know whether we'll be able to go to Quebec in late November to spend our anniversary, which we had been making into a nice tradition. But people like @DavidCarlisle have been giving me things to bend my mind, so I get to heckle him for his typos. Satisfying for both of us, I think

@yo' -- so How are you doing?