TeX, LaTeX and Friends

Sigur

00:11

hello friends. Is it possible to change the background color only of the contents page in report class? I tried to use the tikz approach with overlay in the definition of the \tableofcontents, but I got a missing item error.

David Carlisle

@Sigur \pagecolor{red}\tableofcontents\pagecolor{white} ?

Sigur

00:26

@DavidCarlisle, thanks. Almost. Since I want the contents at last page, the red page was the previous one. I also tried {\clearpage\pagecolor{red}\tableofcontents}\pagecolor{white}, but in this case, the previous one is white but the contents page too.

@DavidCarlisle, nice! It was simpler: \tableofcontents\pagecolor{red}\end{document}

egreg

@Sigur \cleardoublepage\pagecolor{red}\tableofcontents

Sigur

@egreg, hello. Interesting. But \cleardoublepage\pagecolor{red}\color{white}\tableofcontents prints section page numbers in black. How to change everything to white in contents? (by the way, I'm trying to do a back cover of a journal, so with contents on it)

David Carlisle

01:02

@Sigur \makeatletter\color{white}\let\default@color\current@color should work (xcolor may have a syntax around that, it's just setting \normalcolor to the current color, which is what happens at \begin{document} normally)

Sigur

@DavidCarlisle, thanks a lot. It solves the color problem.

David Carlisle

@Sigur phew I'm always a little scared of \pagecolor:-) When I wrote it it basically didn't work anywhere as the driver support was lacking, and I only had a monochrome screen so testing the support that was there was a bit tricky....

Sigur

@DavidCarlisle, for now it is working very well. The black line I inserted with tikz.

barbara beeton

03:09

@FaheemMitha (and @@TeXnician) -- Re understanding Goethe's prose/poetry, yes, it's understandable to a modern student of German. (Having also studied Mittel- and Althochdeutsch and Gotisch, I can readily say that it's much closer to modern German than Chaucer or even Shakespeare is to modern English.)

@AlanMunn -- A very large box, I think.

wilx

06:10

Hi guys and gals.

I found another bug. Someone broke \LaTeX when both luatexja and microtype is present: gist.github.com/wilx/4275632b7240a43044a9c06013a6b1c1

David Carlisle

07:49

@wilx neither the microtype nor luatexja developers are here though... (I get no space in a texlve2019 updated yesterday)

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{fontspec}
\usepackage{luatexja-fontspec}
\usepackage{microtype}

\begin{document}
\LaTeX
\end{document}

@wilx no need to make people follow a link to a gist ^^

I get

Paulo Cereda

08:16

ooh

David Carlisle

08:59

@wilx I get the space with luatexja updated this morning along with

Package luatexja Warning: LuaTeX-ja's patch against the microtype package
(luatexja)                (lltjp-microtype.sty, 2019-11-08) may not work.

@wilx so the luatex-ja developers ought to be able to track that pretty quickly

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ooh a patch

Joseph Wright

09:50

@DavidCarlisle Where are we on PR1? Send now? Or wait until Thursday?

David Carlisle

10:14

@JosephWright now I think (but probably let Frank have final say)

@wilx do you want to report it, or I could, here is I think the place osdn.net/ticket/newticket.php?group_id=5593 (unless @UlrikeFischer broke it in luaotfload?)

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ooh da boss

@DavidCarlisle ooh blame

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda pre-emptive avoidance of blame for any decisions

@PauloCereda ditto

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle well it worked before the luatexja update, so I think it wasn't us ;-). But I must say I constantly fear to break their stuff - we have only one small test file for luatexja and so when I see some update saying "adapt luatexja to new luaotfload" I have a bad concience and wonder if we should have catched it ;-).

Paulo Cereda

10:29

@DavidCarlisle :)

David Carlisle

@wilx @UlrikeFischer I'll put something in their bug tracker

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle thanks, I'm currently not at home and can't reach the tracker.

Skillmon

11:57

@egreg still waiting for your "but"...

egreg

12:14

@Skillmon That's abusing the allocation mechanism.

Skillmon

I just wanted to mention that the dimen is not set to 0pt, the register was initialized that way, but there is no guarantee that after doing a `\newdimen` the register is 0pt if there was any very bad code involved. But you stated:
> TeX allocates a new register number and sets it to 0pt.

egreg

@Skillmon I'll add a clause.

Skillmon

@egreg thanks.

egreg

@Skillmon New version online; of course I upvoted your answer.

Skillmon

12:31

@egreg thanks, love the new version (especially the closing remarks).

@egreg deleted my comment.

David Carlisle

13:11

@wilx @UlrikeFischer luatexja is showing Resolution Update from None to Fixed

@egreg we should blame you.

 -     \xdef\MT@font@list{\MT@font@list\MT@font,}
 +     \xdef\MT@font@list{\MT@font@list\MT@font,}%

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle I just wanted to show the picture too ;-)

David Carlisle

13:54

@UlrikeFischer pdfatfi

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle ?

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer try it:-)

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle it breaks. But if I get the attachfile2 docu right it is unneeded nowadays anyway.

@DavidCarlisle why did you try it?

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer yes seems like it's not used since pdftex 1.3 but it is broken now because the ho-tex oberdiek support group copyright line got added without a comment marker (as it didn't have a % comment prefix....)

@UlrikeFischer I was looking at epstopdf which imports pdftexcmds which has duplicated oberdiek.pdftexcmds.lua and pdftexcmds.lua which caused me to look at the scripts directory where pdfatfi.pl is and I accidentally looked at it...

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle since when it is broken?

David Carlisle

14:09

@UlrikeFischer last week (I think)

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle probably not long enough to be sure that nobody cares ;-)

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer I'll pull attachfile2 out as well as epstopdf for the next release and fix it there I guess

@UlrikeFischer another dragon steak for you.

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle ;-). I should really look at attachfile2 and embedfile.

egreg

14:29

@DavidCarlisle Yes, I didn't pay attention. ;-)

Faheem Mitha

16:10

Is it correct that \usepackage[T1]{fontenc} and \usepackage{fontspec} are incompatible? Because I have a file with both. So it may be a error.

daleif

@FaheemMitha last I heard fontenc should not be used in a document that used fontspec

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha Well fontspec is for Unicode fonts, which are not T1 encoded ...

Faheem Mitha

@daleif Yes, that's what I thought. This file uses Devanagri fonts, which would have to be either xetex or luatex.

So that means fontenc is out, right?

Ulrike Fischer

@FaheemMitha see tex.stackexchange.com/a/470987/2388

Faheem Mitha

@UlrikeFischer Ok. So no fontenc in this case.

Ulrike Fischer

16:15

@FaheemMitha it doesn't hurt (but doesn't have much use either normally) unless you load it to late.

Faheem Mitha

This file was working May 2018, presumably. Since that is its commit date.

But isn't working now. I have a shortened version. Should I post it here, or directly on the site?

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha it's not that the packages are incompatible, just (almost) no times they should be used together T1 encoding should only be used with classic Tex and fontspec can not be used with classic tex.

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle Understood.

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha if you load it after fontspec, then you get what you ask for, a default T1 encoding and then things either silently do the wrong thing (eg all hyphenation will be wrong in xetex) or not work at all (as the fonts loaded are not available in legacy encodings)

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle Silently wrong is bad. Isn't it possible to introduce some kind of warning if both are being loaded manually?

David Carlisle

16:22

@FaheemMitha as I say it is unrelated to fontspec

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage[T1]{fonenc}
\begin{document}
hello
\end{document}

@FaheemMitha ^^^ is already wrong in xetex

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle Yes, I got that. Anyway, warnings, if possible, are helpful.

yo'

@egreg Please, would it be wrong to hack into \thebibliography here for redefinition of \VAN?

32

A: BibTeX handling of the Dutch "van" name prefix with natbib

A working scheme seems to be \documentclass{article} \usepackage[authoryear]{natbib} \usepackage{hyperref} % #1: sorting key, #2: prefix for citation, #3: prefix for bibliography \DeclareRobustCommand{\VAN}[3]{#2} % set up for citation \begin{document} \citet{vannoort} \citet{other} \bibliogr...

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha but warnings are tricky as in that case (using english) it is not wrong as the hyphenation patterns only use ascii characters, so if you warned then perhaps the majority of warnings would be on documents with unwise markup but acceptable results, not to mention almost all the tests in the latex test suite would fail.

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle and the last argument is the main one ;-)

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle I realise it's tricky. That's why I said "if possible".

I'll just post the document here. It's quite short.

And if needed, I'll post it on the site.

\documentclass[12pt]{scrartcl}

% INTERNATIONALIZATON STUFF

% The fontspec package provides a nice interface to font loading.
\usepackage{fontspec}

% The polyglossia package lets us easily use several languages.
\usepackage{polyglossia}

% Define the used fonts. Replace Nakula and XITS by your font choice.
\newfontfamily\devanagarifont[Script=Devanagari]{Nakula}
%\newfontfamily\devanagarifont[Script=Devanagari]{Chandas}
%\newfontfamily\englishfont[Script=Latin]{XITS}
\newfontfamily\englishfont[Script=Latin]{xits-regular.otf}

David Carlisle

16:38

@FaheemMitha making warnings is easy, not annoying people by making warnings on documents that have been warning free for a decade with possibly acceptable results is harder.

Faheem Mitha

That's mostly copied from some text on the site. I don't really understand what it's about. And when I wrote this last year, I was in a hurry, relatively speaking.

This errors out with both XeLaTeX and LuaLaTeX, but it gives different errors.

Should I post it on the site?

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha running it now, but long pause with xelatex probably going to say I don't have the fonts

Faheem Mitha

With XeLateX I get:

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha that's odd. it still hasn't finished... what error do you get with xelatex?

Faheem Mitha

! Package fontspec Error: The font "xits-regular" cannot be found.

For immediate help type H <return>.
 ...

l.16 \newfontfamily
                   \englishfont[Script=Latin]{texgyreschola-regular.otf}

David Carlisle

16:41

@FaheemMitha oh well that's easy, install xits fonts then

Faheem Mitha

I think I was using XeTeX in 2018, because that's what is on the Emacs file.

@DavidCarlisle I think they're already installed.

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha xetex doesn't think so, and it's more believable than you, sorry:-)

Faheem Mitha

Oh, hmm. Looks like the name of the font file changed.

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha I get:

$ fc-list xits
/usr/local/texlive/2018/texmf-dist/fonts/opentype/public/xits/XITS-Italic.otf: XITS:style=Italic
/usr/local/texlive/2018/texmf-dist/fonts/opentype/public/xits/XITS-BoldItalic.otf: XITS:style=Bold Italic
/usr/local/texlive/2018/texmf-dist/fonts/opentype/public/xits/XITS-Bold.otf: XITS:style=Bold
/usr/local/texlive/2018/texmf-dist/fonts/opentype/public/xits/XITS-Regular.otf: XITS:style=Regular

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle Yes, that's what I get too.

David Carlisle

16:44

hmm which means I never updated my fc-config for 2019, so it works, but only by accident

Faheem Mitha

Is there some way to avoid specifying the file name?

So, if I change that line to:

\newfontfamily\englishfont[Script=Latin]{XITS-Regular.otf}

then I get the error:

! LaTeX3 Error: Command '\englishfont' already defined!

Is that because I have the two lines:

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha hardly surprising since it is defined on the previous line.

Faheem Mitha

\newfontfamily\englishfont[Script=Latin]{XITS-Regular.otf}
\newfontfamily\englishfont[Script=Latin]{texgyreschola-regular.otf}

?

@DavidCarlisle So I should get rid of one of them?

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha yes of course, what do you expect to happen if you define the same command with two definitions?

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle Ok, but I'm not sure which one to keep. Because the original file had both.

egreg

16:49

@yo' No, of course not.

Faheem Mitha

The line:

\newfontfamily\englishfont[Script=Latin]{XITS}

is still failing, though. Why do I need to specify the font file? Or am I using the wrong syntax?

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha no it could not have had both without error. It's your choice, do you want the document to be set in xits (a times roman-ish clone) or in tex gyre schola (a new century schoolbook clone) it can not be set in two fonts at the same time

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle Ok. Got it. I usually go with New Century, so I'll stick with that.

How about having to specify the file?

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha the filename always works whether you can use the internal font name, depends on various system dependent things such as how fontconfig is configured and whether the fonts are installed system wide (the easiest) or just in the texlive font tree.

@FaheemMitha see fontspec manual section 2 for gory details

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle I think gory here really does mean gory.

\newfontfamily\englishfont[Script=Latin]{TeX Gyre Schola}

works. Would that be using the regular font by default?

David Carlisle

16:58

@FaheemMitha yes

wilx

@DavidCarlisle Thank you. Sorry, I wasn't able to pay attention to the chat during the day.

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha fontspec is trying to offer a consistent syntax across luatex and xetex (which have different font loading syntax) and each of luatex and xetex are trying to offer consistent font loading over windows/mac/linux which have fundamentally different system font handling technology, it is not surprising if it is impossible to hide all the details from the user all of the time.

@wilx turned out it was just a missing % and they fixed it in less time than it took me to find the bug reporting address:-)

wilx

Hehe.

yo'

17:12

@egreg ok thanks, I was just making sure I don't miss anything.

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle Ok. Thank you.

Do XeTeX and LuaTeX currently give significantly different results with Devanagri?

I guess I can try them both and see. Assuming they both compile.

Ulrike Fischer

@FaheemMitha xetex and luatex yes, xetex and luahbtex probably no.

Faheem Mitha

@UlrikeFischer Can I use luahbtex in TeX Live 2019? Is that an option?

Ulrike Fischer

@FaheemMitha yes, if your texlive is up-to-date you can use lualatex-dev and it will use luahbtex.

Faheem Mitha

@UlrikeFischer It's probably not that up to date. You mean lualatex is luahbtex in sufficently recent versions of TeX Live?

Ulrike Fischer

17:23

@FaheemMitha lualatex-dev, lualatex is still based on luatex.

Faheem Mitha

@UlrikeFischer My installation doesn't have a binary called lualatex-dev.

Ulrike Fischer

@FaheemMitha then your system is not up-to-date. lualatex-dev is quite new (and luahbtex is even newer, it was installed a week ok or so).

wilx

Is there no luahblatex?

Ulrike Fischer

@wilx there was one, but now it has been mapped to lualatex-dev. The plan is that in texlive 2020 lualatex should use the new engine, and it is better not to confuse people by propagating luahblatex now. But if you want one, it is easy to add.

wilx

@UlrikeFischer I just wanted to see it. lualatex-dev is fine for me.

Ulrike Fischer

17:31

@wilx you can test the difference e.g. with

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{fontspec}
\setmainfont{NotoSansDevanagari-Regular.ttf}[Renderer=Harfbuzz,Script=Devanagari]
\setsansfont{NotoSansDevanagari-Regular.ttf}[Script=Devanagari]

\begin{document}
    संयुक्त व्यंजन

  \sffamily

    संयुक्त व्यंजन
\end{document}

Faheem Mitha

@UlrikeFischer It's the Debian packages from June 2019. So not that new.

wilx

@UlrikeFischer Nice.

Faheem Mitha

But there aren't more recent Debian packages, currently.

yo'

17:46

@FaheemMitha well, there is a reason why using distro texlive is not recommended...

Faheem Mitha

@yo' What's the reason?

yo'

@FaheemMitha well, that the distro is frozen in often quite an old version. If you need up-to-date features, you shall opt for vanilla

Faheem Mitha

@yo' It's not that old. It's 2019. Which, for the most part, is fine.

Norbert packages up the most recent TeX Live every few months.

I suppose if Debian didn't have TeX Live packages, I wouldn't have a choice but to use upstream. And maybe that will happen one day.

yo'

@FaheemMitha yeah. I'm just saying

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Nice

Faheem Mitha

18:12

@yo' I take it you use upstream?

yo'

@FaheemMitha well, currently I use Overleaf (for obvious reasons), so TL18 :)

Faheem Mitha

@yo' You even use Overleaf locally? I don't really know what that is.

I thought it was some online Tex thing.

yo'

@FaheemMitha well, it is an online TeX thing. I use the same version as Overleaf, as I want to be compatible.

(and please note I work there, so it may make even more sense...)

Faheem Mitha

@yo' I see. So it's not a TeX distribution then.

@yo' Yes, I remember.

yo'

@FaheemMitha no, it's all the things around it; there's TeXlive inside.

Faheem Mitha

18:22

@yo' Ok.

Paulo Cereda

18:36

@barbarabeeton twitter.com/ValaAfshar/status/1183125376895213568

Faheem Mitha

18:49

My file won't compile in LuaTeX. I get:

Module polyglossia Warning: Language prakrit not found in language.dat.lua on i
nput line 11
Module polyglossia Warning: Language prakrit not found in language.dat.lua on i
nput line 11
Module polyglossia Warning: Language prakrit not found in language.dat.lua on i
nput line 11
Module polyglossia Warning: Language sanskrit not found in language.dat.lua on
input line 11
Module polyglossia Warning: Language sanskrit not found in language.dat.lua on
input line 11
! Undefined control sequence.
l.58 \newXeTeXintercharclass

I didn't intentionally define anything XeTeX-specific.

But in any case, I guess I need to use XeTeX for now?

Phelype Oleinik

@FaheemMitha Seems like a bug, if it happens in a package. MWE?

Ulrike Fischer

19:07

@PhelypeOleinik quite a number of polyglossia languages are still xetex-only.

Phelype Oleinik

@UlrikeFischer Oh. Didn't know that :-)

A more comprehensive error message would be nice, I think

@UlrikeFischer I suppose LuaHBTeX improves the situation, right?

Ulrike Fischer

@PhelypeOleinik no, not directly but it will perhaps put a bit pressure to find some lua-substitutes for the intercharclass code, as now there is no longer the excuse that the fonts don't work anyway and that it is not worth the trouble.

Faheem Mitha

@PhelypeOleinik Shall I post it here?

Phelype Oleinik

@FaheemMitha See Ulrike's comment above: the language you want probably doesn't have support for LuaTeX yet

@FaheemMitha But post it anyway :-)

Faheem Mitha

\documentclass[12pt]{scrartcl}

% INTERNATIONALIZATON STUFF

% The fontspec package provides a nice interface to font loading.
\usepackage{fontspec}

% The polyglossia package lets us easily use several languages.
\usepackage{polyglossia}

% Define the used fonts. Replace Nakula and XITS by your font choice.
\newfontfamily\devanagarifont[Script=Devanagari]{Nakula}
%\newfontfamily\devanagarifont[Script=Devanagari]{Chandas}
% \newfontfamily\englishfont[Script=Latin]{XITS}
% \newfontfamily\englishfont[Script=Latin]{xits-regular.otf}

@PhelypeOleinik I posted essentially the same document, with some minor differences, earlier in the chat. I'm using Tex Live 2019. The Debian package.

Phelype Oleinik

19:24

@FaheemMitha With your MWE (I replaced Nukula bu Noto Sans) I get:

Package polyglossia Warning: Sanskrit is not supported with LuaTeX.
(polyglossia)                I will proceed with the compilation, but
(polyglossia)                the output is not guaranteed to be correct
(polyglossia)                and may look very wrong. on input line 6.

@FaheemMitha Sorry, I didn't see that. I'm not having too much time to keep up with the chat recently

@FaheemMitha No error though...

Faheem Mitha

@PhelypeOleinik Interesting. Does that mean you have a more recent version than me?

barbara beeton

@PauloCereda -- Yes, I knew that, but it was fun to see all the comments. The one I like best is "So corks are made from bark like wool is made from sheep?"

Phelype Oleinik

@FaheemMitha Possibly. I updated earlier today

Faheem Mitha

@PhelypeOleinik I have LuaTeX 1.10

Paulo Cereda

@barbarabeeton ooh :)

Phelype Oleinik

19:27

@FaheemMitha So do I. The issue here is most likely the polyglossia version (mine is v1.46 -- 2019/11/15)

Faheem Mitha

@PhelypeOleinik How do I find my polyglossa version?

Phelype Oleinik

@FaheemMitha texdoc polyglossia (or \listfiles, probably)

@PauloCereda Hello, Mr. Duck :-)

Faheem Mitha

@PhelypeOleinik 2019/04/04 v1.44 here

Phelype Oleinik

@FaheemMitha That might explain

Paulo Cereda

@PhelypeOleinik ooh hi mr. engineer (")>/

Phelype Oleinik

19:30

@PauloCereda I felt important now :-)

Paulo Cereda

@PhelypeOleinik ooh :)

Phelype Oleinik

@FaheemMitha Commit dated Sep 14th: github.com/reutenauer/polyglossia/commit/…

Faheem Mitha

20:37

@PhelypeOleinik Oh. Quite recent then.

Have you tested it with any actual Devanagari?

Phelype Oleinik

@FaheemMitha Yes, the highlighted change fixes that error you showed (possibly others may occur)

@FaheemMitha No. I know very little (to be generous) about these scripts. Anything other than the latin alphabet really

Faheem Mitha

@PhelypeOleinik OK.

Just asked a question on Emacs SE about AUCTeX. Which was promptly closed.

Phelype Oleinik

@FaheemMitha If you give me some file I can test it for you

Faheem Mitha

Ok. Give it to you how? Would email work?

I don't want to paste my sample file publicly, and I don't have the time to write a test one from scratch.

Phelype Oleinik

@FaheemMitha Oh. e-mail is fine, but sure you want to send it to me?

Faheem Mitha

20:47

@PhelypeOleinik It's fine. It's not really sensitive or anything. But still not something that I want to post publicly. And obviously, don't post it publicly either. I might do some anonymizing.

Phelype Oleinik

@FaheemMitha Of course. My gmail is phe <dot> h <dot> o1

Faheem Mitha

@PhelypeOleinik Ok. I'll send you a test mail right now.

Please acknowledge.

Though that can't be correct as written. No "at".

Should the first "dot" be an "at"?

Phelype Oleinik

@FaheemMitha Append "at gmail.com"

Faheem Mitha

@PhelypeOleinik Oh, right. Sorry.

@PhelypeOleinik Email sent.

Phelype Oleinik

@FaheemMitha Received

Sebastiano

21:00

Good evening to all my friend into chat. A big and strong huge.

@DavidCarlisle Most kind David I have updated MikTeX via the console and mathastex has been updated. A few days ago I told the author about the problem via email but I still haven't gotten an answer. A very warm greeting.

Ulrike Fischer

@Sebastiano but he looked at the problem and even opened an issue at the latex github - at the core of the error was an amsmath bug. When amsmath is updated it should be fine again.

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer oh I hadn't traced that back to chat here:-)

@FaheemMitha you need luahbtex (don't use luatex)

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle ;-). I had looked a bit at the error and knew that it is a amsmath problem so it was easy to make the connection.

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle Not available for my version of TeX Live 2019.

Debian packages as of June 2019.

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle you should show an example ;-)

Faheem Mitha

21:14

Will this at some point become plain LuaTeX?

Ulrike Fischer

@FaheemMitha sorry but this question doesn't make much sense.

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha well no it only went in to upstream texlive last week

@FaheemMitha you meant "luatex" there not "plain as in plain tex" luatex, I think.

Faheem Mitha

@UlrikeFischer What doesn't make sense? I'm asking whether what you are currently calling luahbtex or luatex-dev will eventually become plain luatex.

Or substitute latex for tex in all of the above.

@DavidCarlisle Well, lualatex, if you prefer.

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha probably not, the situation is likely to be similar to tex and pdfetex, in that tex and pdfetex are separate binaries but "latex" is based on pdfetex not tex. so from 20202 there will be luatex and luahbtex , but just a single lualatex, which will be based on luahbtex

Faheem Mitha

These things are all executable programs, right?

Joseph Wright

21:19

@DavidCarlisle Of course, no-one really is in charge

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha yes but luatex texlua lualatex etc are all the same executable and "plain" refers to a macro set

@JosephWright I decided not to mention that:-)

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle So you're saying there will be two engines called LuaTeX and LuaHBTeX? But the lualatex executable will use the LuaHBTeX engine?

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha yes (most likley)

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle Oh. Then why keep the LuaTeX engine around?

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha it is possible that luahbtex becomes the new luatex but I suspect not.

@FaheemMitha for the same reason that there is still a tex executable that isn't just etex or pdftex in dvi mode

Faheem Mitha

21:22

@DavidCarlisle And you are talking about "plain" TeX here?

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha that is even less clear. Let me phrase it another way.

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Well, er, it's only broadly true

Faheem Mitha

So two LuaLaTeX versions? But only one LuaTeX version?

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle I mean, I write the .ini files ...

Faheem Mitha

@JosephWright I kind of thought you were in charge.

You seem to be all over the place, at any rate.

David Carlisle

21:24

there are currently two executables luatex and luahbtex, if luatex is dropped and luahbtex is renamed to luatex, things look as now, but with harfbuzz, but...

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha Honestly, no-one is in charge of plain formats beyond tex

Faheem Mitha

@JosephWright I meant more generally.

David Carlisle

... if they remain as two executables, the lualatex format will definitely use luahbtex, the plain tex format is less clear, as @JosephWright says we could make that use luahbtex as well but it isn't so clear if we should or whether there should be two plain tex formats luatex and luahbtex

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle Ok.

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle While Hans et al. want to produce LuaTeX, I think we stick to things as-is

Faheem Mitha

21:26

HarfBuzz is a funny name.

David Carlisle

@JosephWright yes

Faheem Mitha

@JosephWright Want to produce? How do you mean?

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha so is Tex and so is python

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle Personally I find HarfBuzz funnier than TeX. And somehow I don't find Python funny at all. Perhaps because it is a familiar English word.

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha Hans is still maintaining luatex, so it might be thought ungreatful to rename luahbtex 9an extension he doesn't maintain directly) to be called luatex.

@FaheemMitha but python is explicitly named after a TV comedy show so is by intention funny

Faheem Mitha

21:28

As in a big snake. Or British comedy. As suits one's taste.

@DavidCarlisle Well, the comedy might be funny, but I don't find the word Python itself particularly so. I guess we just have different things that tickle our funny bone.

@DavidCarlisle I see.

Sebastiano

@UlrikeFischer I thank you for your very cordial response and notice. Thanks again and I always wish you the best.

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha HarfBuzz (loose transliteration of Persian حرف‌باز harf-bāz, meaning “open type”)

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle Yes, I'm aware it's of Persian origin.

Can't read Persian. Could read Urdu a little bit, once. I taught myself. Apparently they have different alphabets, despite appearances.

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha I vaguely remembered it was something, the above is the first line of its wikipedea entry:-)

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright still problems with the deployment?

Joseph Wright

21:31

@UlrikeFischer Only one: I seem to have the key wrong, I'll ask @MarcelKrüger to fix that ;)

@UlrikeFischer Doing a build manually

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright what was the source of the problem?

David Carlisle

@JosephWright @UlrikeFischer and I have the travis cli script as well:-)

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer It's the \askforoverwrite issue, plus some interaction between different parts of the bundling: I've sorted it using a clean-up approach

@DavidCarlisle Sure: feel free to fix the deployment key!

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle yes, but I have already forgotten how I used it ;-(

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle I did generate the key using it, I think, but clearly it's not right: the script itself is right now, so it is just he upload key that needs fixing

Faheem Mitha

21:40

If one has to describe the family of things that "lualatex" and "pdflatex" and "xelatex" belong to, what would you use. Engines? LaTeX formats? TeX formats? Something else?

Alan Munn

@FaheemMitha Engines + format, since LaTeX is a format, but XeTeX is an engine...

@FaheemMitha But since most people are using LaTeX, it's probably most sensible to just call them engines.

@FaheemMitha 'format' is a very technical term of little value to the end user, really.

Faheem Mitha

@AlanMunn Ok. Engines then. Thanks.

Huh, when I run latexmk with a XeTeX flag, I talks about a xdv file and something called xdvipdfmx. Does XeTeX not produce a PDF directly? Or is it just how latexmk is doing it?

Don't see this with xelatex directly.

David Carlisle

21:56

@FaheemMitha it depends what you mean, "LaTeX" is a markup language but it is also the software that implements that, and in current implementations it is physically the same file as the binary application that implements the underlying tex system. So latex and plain tex are distinct markup languages but if you look in your tex bin directory you will see that they are both just symbolic links to teh same executable program

Phelype Oleinik

@FaheemMitha xetex produces a xdv file, then silently calls xdvipdfmx to convert that to pdf.

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha it produces xdv (a version of dvi) then runs xdvipdfmx to make pdf but by default it forks the xdvipdfmx process internally and deletes the xdv before you see it.

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle I'm just looking for a convenient label to use.

@PhelypeOleinik @DavidCarlisle This doesn't show up with a regular xelatex run, but does with latexmk.

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha yes but it depends what you want to use it for

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle In a config file.

YAML, to be precise.

David Carlisle

21:59

@FaheemMitha presumably it uses xeletex --no-pdf yourfile.tex; xdvipdfmx yourfile

Faheem Mitha

22:13

@DavidCarlisle Possibly.

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Ah, I see git show acc05a71e reveals that I didn't add the deploy keys ...

David Carlisle

@JosephWright I was running a full l3build check in oberdiek so I haven't updated the latex repos for a bit, but sounds like you have it under control now?

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Er, perhaps: I see you quoted the SSH key, but the working repos don't have quotes, could be that

@DavidCarlisle Will find out for PR2

David Carlisle

@JosephWright docs.travis-ci.com/user/encryption-keys shows secure: ".... encrypted data ...." so quotes are allowed, I think, may have encrypted the wrong thing of course, hard to tell....

Joseph Wright

22:30

@DavidCarlisle I'll wait to see if @MarcelKrüger has a comment

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle when I tried this in the chessboard repo I tried at first too to copy a key into the yaml but this didn't work. At the end I used travis setup releases and this adds a key without quotes.

David Carlisle

Mar 26 '12 at 19:37, by David Carlisle

@Canageek moral of the story: never read the documentation, bad things happen

Sebastiano

@cfr I have deleted my question. tex.stackexchange.com/questions/516849/…

David Carlisle

@Sebastiano I didn't vote but it was a bad question

2

@JosephWright so I'll see in a bit if my hand addition of a luahbtex binary was complete enough that tlmgr update will give me all the updated -dev formats... (I think it will, as fmtutil-sys built all the existing ones)

Sebastiano

22:57

@DavidCarlisle if it is bad....I have deleted it.

Ulrike Fischer

23:13

@Sebastiano the question wasn't good but the picture was nice ;-).

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer ducks are tastier

does anyone understand why epstopdf-base isn't epstopdf ?

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle the docu says "Package is split into epstopdf that only takes package options and loads epstopdf-base that does the work."

Ulrike Fischer

23:38

@DavidCarlisle isn't that a bit like the ecpl3 split? So that you can load the code early but nevertheless have a sty with options?

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer yes that's what the doc says and why pdftex.def inputs epstopdf-base.sty (with no options) so I was wondering why that makes the graphics package in pdftex and luatex pull in kvoptions and the whole oberdiek stack... but if you look what epstopdf actually does it does nothing other than save a pile of catcodes, reset a pile of catcodes, call epstopdf-base then restore the catcodes

@UlrikeFischer I wondered about moving all the option handling out of epstopdf-base into epstopdf but bound to break something, I think it would be safer to have a new really base version in the graphics-def distrib that is independent (I know what @JosephWright is going to suggest at this point:-)

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$TeX - LaTeX$ TeX, LaTeX and Friends