@DavidCarlisle Hi, I mailed to the noweb developer and he was surprised that ctan marked it as deprecated. We are now in contact and working on this.

I searched for "knuth80" (DEK's 80th birthday celebrations in Sweden) and found some nice slides from Yannis Haralambous talking about “TeX as a path” --

like the last one especially :-)

@ShreevatsaR Indeed!

@ShreevatsaR Also the last point of the first one :):):)

:)

Mac setup done, now MacTeX. :)

@AlanMunn, @JosephWright, @egreg: apart from vim and emacs, this seems to be an interesting (new) text editor for macOS: coteditor.com

@PauloCereda so with that you now have a choice of two editors

@PauloCereda Indeed! I use it as a replacement for nano, sometimes.

@DavidCarlisle vim and? :)

@egreg cool!

@PauloCereda I think I'd use one of the first two since they are not restricted to macOS

@SBM It depends because sometimes you end up stuck with the OS modus operandi. :)

For example, MacVim and the emacs GUI are not my cup of tea for macOS.

The terminal counterparts are excellent. :)

Hello, please what is the better way to instal taxlive on windows 7 thank you

@PauloCereda True, gVim is bad.

@Vrouvrou tug.org/texlive/windows.html

@DavidCarlisle for a minute I thought you'd provide a link to Cygwin. :)

@Vrouvrou Better than what?

@DavidCarlisle ed is the sta da editor

@HaraldHanche-Olsen true, or sed if you want the same power with an easier, more modern, interface

@DavidCarlisle man.cat-v.org/unix-1st/1/ed

@DavidCarlisle It's harder to rearrange lines with sed, though. But not impossible. (I think.)

@HaraldHanche-Olsen DIAGNOSTICS ? for any error was always my favourite part of the ed man page

Ugh. I was in the middle of editing my post when the next post came in, auto-committing my edit⁉ And now I can't, anymore. The edited text was supposed to read as follows: ed is the standard editor

I don't understand where i must click

@HaraldHanche-Olsen I read it as: "ed is the ta da!! editor" with a drum roll in the middle

@DavidCarlisle :)

@Vrouvrou Sorry, I don't follow: once you run install-tl-windows the places to click are pretty clear to me

Frank is having fun in Sweden!

@JosephWright have you downloaded the installer? (I tend to recommend downloading the zip and unpacking it). Then either run install-tl-windows or install-tl-advanced.

Oops, meant to tag @Vrouvrou

@daleif :)

@daleif The self-contained .exe is more friendly to non-experienced users, and normally it works fine

@PauloCereda Let him try surströmming, and that will quickly end.

@JosephWright there are still instances where the simple installer fails with perl errors. And last I tested the .exe it did not leave the alt installer behind, it unpacked itself in a "hidden" place. So I recommend the zip for more options for the user.

@daleif That can be true, certainly

@daleif where i found the installer please

@PauloCereda I wonder if he ever got his luggage

@Vrouvrou did you read the page: tug.org/texlive

@daleif I use the cygwin one but I don't suppose anyone else wants to recommend that?

then go to the down load page

@DavidCarlisle what advangates are there to using the cygwin one on windows or whatever system you use? I've never really understood that one

@daleif yes i click on downlod

@HaraldHanche-Olsen uh-oh

@DavidCarlisle hm? I missed something. :)

@daleif yes i click on download

it reminse on a other page

@Vrouvrou then download install-tl-windows.exe or install-tl.zip

ok

after that i bigen with what _

what i do with install'tk.zip ?

@daleif

@Vrouvrou If you unpack the zip file you'll end up with a folder containing a file called install-tl: you run that

@Vrouvrou unzip it of course. Then go into the folder created by unzipping the zip, and run either install-tl-windows.exe or install-tl-advanced.bat. It is not rocket science.

@daleif because I use cygwin for more or less everything so it is far more natural to use cygwin tex as well with the same notional file paths, and when I shell escape I get a cygwin path with my usual environment rather than some windows based path. I use cygwin X windows, bash perl, make, emacs, tex, ....

i must instal what

@Vrouvrou install texlive that's what you asked to do! you don't need any other software to install it, just follow the instructions on that page

i must instal simple instal or what ?

@Vrouvrou If you've downloaded and unzipped the zip, just double-click "install-tl-advanced" to start the GUI installer

@Vrouvrou Why do you want to install texlive? Don't you already have a tex system?

i have an other pc with windows 7

@DavidCarlisle and vim

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Seems very scary!

$ vim
bash: vim: command not found

@PauloCereda ^^

@egreg On the offset business, what I'm trying to get at is that a new format would I think have the origin as (nominally) (0pt, 0pt) (so remove the one inch margin). Any subsequent 'final adjustment' should as you say not be picked up by packages.

@JosephWright Yes, but the (0,0) origin should not be obtained by using \hoffset and \voffset; all engines now have something about the origin, don't they?

@egreg you have some Greek don't you? github.com/ho-tex/hyperref/issues/52

@DavidCarlisle Not really: I can read but not understand it. :-)

@DavidCarlisle Anyway, what you get is just section and figure

@egreg well it's possibly more of a babel/hyperref question than a language one, and my use of babel is somewhat theoretical

@DavidCarlisle When the current output encoding is LGR, there is a transliteration performed: a to alpha, b to beta and so on.

@egreg Yes

@egreg oh cripes is that what it is, so not a translation at all then,

@egreg I was mainly getting at 'one would approach this differently starting today'

Accents are just the standard ones or via ligatures: 'i produces iota with acute.

@DavidCarlisle greek.ldf does, for instance \textAlpha\textpi\acctonos\textomicron\textdelta\textepsilon\textiota\textxi\te‌​xteta for \proofname.

@egreg yes thanks I guessed I could use the accent commands, so I should ignore the current "transliterated" output and experiment with adding teh supplied translations via babel's addtoextras or whatever it's called

@egreg thanks

@egreg From syst-ini.mkiv for example:

%D We get rid of the funny \TEX\ offset defaults of one inch by setting them to zero.

\voffset\zeropoint \let\voffset\relax \newdimen\voffset % prevent messing up
\hoffset\zeropoint \let\hoffset\relax \newdimen\hoffset % prevent messing up

@DavidCarlisle so ή should become \acctonos\texteta

@egreg I keep hearing that you should never touch \hoffset and \voffset. But the pdfTeX manual says the opposite: “For standard purposes, this parameter [\pdfhorigin] should always be kept at 1 true inch. If you want to shift text on the page, use TEX’s own \hoffset primitive.”

@JosephWright ConTeXt is monolithic; LaTeX will never be.

@egreg Indeed

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Based around the idea that you start with a one-inch margin. If you start from the ground up with the origin in the corner, it doesn't apply.

(And I have never understood how the \pdf*origin and \*offset parameters interact, if they do.)

@HaraldHanche-Olsen \pdf*origin is where \*offset is relative to: in TeX90, the equivalent of \pdf*origin is strictly fixed at 1in

@HaraldHanche-Olsen One for me to experiment with at some stage ;)

@JosephWright Somehow, I still find that confusing. Granted, in LaTeX it's probably best to just use the geometry package and let it do its thing, but I still don't know why fiddling with the offset/origin parameters is bad. And you seem to tell me it isn't bad? (Except I think I read somewhere recently that TikZ may get confused by it.)

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Whether it's bad or not depends on what assumptions are built in to everything. Current LaTeX was written when we didn't have PDF-based values for paper size, origin, etc., so the ideal that \hoffset and \voffset are 1in is widely 'baked in'

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Try using the vmargin package together with atbegshi and you'll see what happens.

@JosephWright Actually, they're zero. 8-) But I know what you mean: The offsets are relative to the origin, which used to be hardcoded at (1in,1in).

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Yes, exactly

@egreg Oy. That didn't work out too well. (I just copied atbegshi-example1.texand added the vmargin package.) But if I am doing plain TeX, and handle all the page layout on my own, there really shouldn't be any surprises, I assume.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen TikZ?

github is down ;-(.

@UlrikeFischer GitHub is up now. :)

@egreg I don't generally do TikZ in plain TeX. All my plain TeX documents are very simple. The moment I feel like doing something complicated, I switch to LaTeX.

@UlrikeFischer There have been problems: I had to sign in, which usually I don't need.

Quack!

@PauloCereda hi!

@yo' Tom! <3

@yo' My, aren't we formal today! :)

@AlanMunn I love this statement! Similarly, I have a passion for using Milá/milý (Dear) in mails, which is usually replaced by Ahoj (Hello) followed by the recipient's name. So I wouldn't say formal, but rather old-fashioned :)

@yo' "Dear" in English mails is pretty common, and I would say not formal.

@AlanMunn yeah, but in Czech, it quite disappears, and also, the word gets slightly negative taste to it. Similar to when you call your children by their proper name instead of the familiar form (if this makes sense in English, damn the languages know to be different!)

@yo' In English most names don't have familiar forms, so the "I'm angry at you" form is usually to say the full name (First Last) (and sometimes middle). I don't recall my parents using that form much but it's pretty common.

@AlanMunn yeah, it's funny; in Czech it's strange to use names with non-existent or unnatural familiar forms. My good friends named their son by one such name, and the familiar form they use sounds ... humiliating at best, and stupid at worst (IMHO)

@yo' So too infantile?

@yo' Of course being in a bilingual household, I actually do have a familiar form, just not in English.

@yo' And unlike the Paul Simon song, you can't call me 'Al'. :D

@AlanMunn For those of us who are non-experts, could you explain what this concept means?

@AlanMunn Erik is not quite a domestic name (about 1/1000 in Czechia), and the familiar form is following a typical pattern, but the result does not turn well

It's basically infantile, yeah, it's Eriček (č as in Cz-ech), it's almost twice as long as the original name and sounds proper only as long as the boy wears nappies 24/7. So I wonder if they're gonna use it forever.

@JosephWright Spanish and Portuguese have diminutive suffixes (kind of like –y/–ie in English Bobby, Lizzie etc.) that can be attached to almost anything. So when attached to a name, it's used with very close friends. In Spanish it's –ito/–ita and in Portuguese its –inho/–inha.

@AlanMunn Hmm

@JosephWright But it's not really the same as the English use.

@AlanMunn funny, again Alan is not quite common here (1/4000) and it does not have a common familiar form. However, the name Alena is common (1/50) and of course has many familiar forms then :)

@AlanMunn I guess what I'm not seeing is the 'standardisation': it's quite possible to have a 'pet' name in English, but that is dependent on the people (for example, my sister sometimes calls me Zeppy, from Guiseppe, which is therefore the 'same' as my name)

@yo' I suspect that Alena is not actually related etymologically to Alan.

@JosephWright that's ... cute, so to say :)

@AlanMunn That's the bit I'm finding difficult :)

@AlanMunn quite possibly. Alena probably comes from Hélène. Czech Wiki suggests Hélène, Madelaine or Alan.

@JosephWright Well this is a productive word formation process, and so can attach pretty much to any name.

@JosephWright It can also attach to any noun, meaning (in various contexts) "little" or "cute".

@AlanMunn yeah, Czech has this thing too, and these familiar forms sound infantile to the highest degree. I'm happy even my family has never really called me this way

For me, Tom is actually the familiar form :)

@JosephWright It's Giuseppe (English speakers often invert the vowels); my father's name is Giuseppe, familiarly Bepi. Also Beppe is common.

@JosephWright ad borrowing familiar forms from other languages: The most common form for Jan is Honza here :)