3:02 AM
Get up everybody, early morning started :-)
Night guys, going to bed.

1 hour later…
4:07 AM
@Johannes_B morning!

@yo' Morning. Still awake :-(

5:05 AM
@Johannes_B oh no! I'm already on my way to work...
@DavidCarlisle ^^

1 hour later…
6:39 AM
@yo' so have you beaten your mother now?

1 hour later…
7:52 AM
@DavidCarlisle not sure (she plays every day you know...) I'll meet her today after the senate elections 2nd round, I'll see what she's got
Now I'm off to teach (again) -- a genuine idea of scheduling a math problem session into a PC class with one blackboard and one whiteboard and no washbasin...

8:50 AM
@egreg "research project" completed

@DavidCarlisle Good!

@egreg hopefully my comment under the question is true

@DavidCarlisle Not really what the OP wanted, though.

@egreg It does this "I just need to make use of the standard hyphenation function of LaTeX, except "behind the scenes", without actually typesetting anything." (if not typesetting includes typesetting in a hidden box) it doesn't address the use case that he said he wanted that for

@DavidCarlisle Thinking about the hyphenation-of-digits question: I guess if we want compatibility we need to set \hjcode<char>=<char> for a lot of non-letters ...

9:04 AM
@JosephWright ah yes, unlike the hyphenation near box question, I guess that makes sense, basically can't just rely on lccode anymore. I suppose you don't want the hyphenation code in my last answer by default?

@DavidCarlisle :)
@DavidCarlisle I'll raie on the team list: probably needs a 'policy' decision
@DavidCarlisle Speaking of which, looking at ltdirchk I'm minded to simplify heavily ...

@yo' Back up, where is my coffee?

@JosephWright but what about support for an acorn Archimedes with a flat filesystem and no directory structure (I think it was that, or was that ataritex...)

@DavidCarlisle Does this code really help nowadays?
@DavidCarlisle :)

@JosephWright no of course not but I had fun writing it

9:08 AM
@DavidCarlisle Yes, sure

@DavidCarlisle, I've discovered I really love tikz: tex.stackexchange.com/a/333824/114143

@JosephWright anway if we rip out all the auto-testing (since mac/windows/linux come out the same anyway) but leave in the .cfg possibility, there is no actual loss of functionality if someone is still using a vms tex or whatever

@DavidCarlisle That's the simplification I was thinking of
@DavidCarlisle All the code is in the history anyway
@DavidCarlisle I'll probably drop all of the TeX2 stuff first

@JosephWright there'll be none of my code left by the time you have finished:-)

@DavidCarlisle Based on Frank's thought's re. future progress, the 'Joseph re-writes everything' outcome seems likely ...
@DavidCarlisle Anyway, you've got to battle @egreg for ticks

9:13 AM
@JosephWright actually I need to generate 1800 C files (done) and make them work (less done than it could be)
@GuilhermeZ.Santos there is now no hope for you, you have been lured to the dark side.

@DavidCarlisle No picture mode? Bah. :)

@DavidCarlisle Yes, I'm afraid so... The pull was too strong for me to resist xD

@GuilhermeZ.Santos The picture mode Jedi will return one day....

@DavidCarlisle ooh
[paulo@cambridge ~] $ack -c "picture" thesis.tex 0 @DavidCarlisle ^^ @PauloCereda I know you have \def\tikz{\picture} in your thesis class so grep for tikz instead 9:24 AM @PauloCereda So no tikzpicture either! I'm disappointed @PauloCereda Oh, wait! What does wc thesis.tex return? @egreg 0 0 0 @PauloCereda ^^ @egreg Oh I should have included the subfiles... @DavidCarlisle oh no @DavidCarlisle, Actually if you come to think of it picture is the predecessor ("Father") of tikz, in the way... you are luring us to the dark side! [paulo@cambridge ~]$ ack -ch "picture" *
20
@egreg ^^ fixed

9:41 AM
@PauloCereda The proper command should be ack -ch '\{picture\}' *

10:07 AM
@Johannes_B come to my office, there's plenty

10:53 AM
@DavidCarlisle, @StefanKottwitz, @PauloCereda Looks like a full house for tomorrow

@JosephWright Is there some live streaming or will there be YouTube Videos afterwards?

@GuilhermeZ.Santos Either Kaveh or I will record them and upload somewhere (I use Vimeo, Kaveh has his own hosting)

@JosephWright alright, can you tell me the the Vimeo channel (or send the link afterwards) in case there's no Streaming.

@GuilhermeZ.Santos I'll post something here once recordings are available: live stream is probably beyond us!

@JosephWright Okay, Thank's!=D

11:11 AM
@GuilhermeZ.Santos I've asked Kaveh if he's doing the work: he's better set up but I do 'have the technology'

2 hours later…
1:08 PM
@JosephWright s/house/dungeon/

1:30 PM
thought you might enjoy seeing what we had for dinner last night.

1:46 PM
@DavidCarlisle :-)
@DavidCarlisle Better room was booked ...
@DavidCarlisle We are going out for lunch :)

@DavidCarlisle so I beat my mum by 20k

2:28 PM
@yo' ungrateful child: you should have stopped earlier:-)
@JosephWright to the place @barbarabeeton went?

@DavidCarlisle 'Fraid not

2:42 PM
@DavidCarlisle I hope you like my LaTeX News text :)

@barbarabeeton yummy!

@DavidCarlisle hey! Who's starred that?!

2:58 PM
@JosephWright bound to be someone (other than me) who complains:-)

@DavidCarlisle Certainly

@yo' not me, not you: must be a duck

@DavidCarlisle I'm working on the basis that to a first approximation the number of complaints will be of the order of the number of ConTeXt users ;-)

@yo' it was me. Should I unstar?
@SeanAllred: Hi! <3

@PauloCereda Someone else did ;-)

3:00 PM
@JosephWright must be a duck. :)

@JosephWright less I expect. I'm sure there are people with old implementations (and Y&Y etc) but not with a 2017 latex

@DavidCarlisle: ^^ it was a duck.

@DavidCarlisle Yes, that's what I'm guessing: Y&Y is a 'known'

3:15 PM
@PauloCereda Hi!!

@SeanAllred Hello! Long time no see, pal!

@DavidCarlisle You and Atari ...

3:31 PM
am I the only one who parsed this as "change-tracking for a sans-serf font [source]"?
0

I want to change the tracking (space between the characters) for a sans serif font. I found that I can use the microtype package to change the tracking of the smallcaps font (\textsc{foo}), but I can't figure out how to make \textsc{} a sans serif font.

@JosephWright Arrived in London :-) Now I look for the express bus to Oxford

@StefanKottwitz Oxford Tube, I guess

My flight was totally overbooked at a surprising moment: -20 places free and I dropped to the waiting list. Felt like being Trump.
Luckily I could book another flight, both HAM-FRA and FRA-LHR full but I got through the waiting lists.
@JosephWright There's a direct bus from Heathrow to Oxford every 20 minutes

3:47 PM
@StefanKottwitz Ah, you are of course right
@StefanKottwitz Which hotel will you be at?

@JosephWright Victoria Hotel

@PauloCereda Long time no see indeed :) I've been super busy with work stuff lately.
@DavidCarlisle Nope, you're not :) that was my first read as well (though I'm a bit immersed in VCS at the moment)
@PauloCereda Well, work stuff and apparently fun stuff :) (emacs rulez)

@DavidCarlisle, @JosephWright: someone starred that again and this time it's not me!

@PauloCereda not me

@DavidCarlisle it was the other duck then

4:01 PM
@PauloCereda too many ducks:
Oct 11 at 11:06, by David Carlisle
@PauloCereda eat roast duck

@yo' oh no

@PauloCereda :)
@JosephWright @DavidCarlisle Please, how do you write dates if you spell the month out, e.g. for 2016-05-04? Can I use "May 4, 2016" or am I missing some "th" and "the"?

@yo' English isn't very prescriptive, May 4, 2016 or 4 May, 2016 or May 4th, 2016 or 4th May, 2016, more or less all pronounced "4th of May 2016"

@DavidCarlisle Thanks. Would you ever say "May the fourth, 2016"?

@yo' and in most sentence contexts (so not a list of dates) you'd want "the" in front.

4:06 PM
@DavidCarlisle this is a title, so I suppose no "the" nor "th"

@yo' I'd say that yes, probably wouldn't write it.

@DavidCarlisle ok, thanks

@yo' @AlanMunn isn't on my back so I can make up these English grammar rules on the fly.

4:29 PM
@PauloCereda I guess I'll Skype you tomorrow before playing the video

Yo folks
honest question
what book is this image a parody of?

@JosephWright before?

@yo' I am not even sure in which direction i would need to go. West or east?

@PauloCereda Or I can go for 'right at the end'

@EmilioPisanty there's an online generator which picks an animal at random. :)

4:33 PM
@Johannes_B depends on where in Germany you are

@JosephWright I will poke you.

@yo' Saxony.

@PauloCereda so there's no actual LaTeX O'Reilly book being mocked?
fair enough

@EmilioPisanty Yep. :)

@Johannes_B south then; direct train from Dresden

4:34 PM
@EmilioPisanty: dev.to/rly

@yo' Oh right. The map in my head was a bit distorted. Sorry :-)

4:49 PM
WiFi in the bus to Oxford, nice

5:01 PM
@StefanKottwitz :)

5:11 PM
@DavidCarlisle -- if you write it as "4 May 2016" you don't need a comma (or, in the u.s., want a comma).
@egreg (even if you're not here at the moment) -- tomorrow is international archaeology day: twitter.com/ArchaeologyDay , so there must be someplace near you that you could visit to demonstrate your firsthand knowledge.

@barbarabeeton I prefer May 4, 2016, for some reason (don't know why actually)
@barbarabeeton but I have another question maybe better suited for you please: If a member of a conference scientific committee writes a preface for the special issue, can the signature say John Doe \\ for the scientific committee or is there a better wording?

@yo' -- that's what one usually sees in the u.s.

@barbarabeeton yeah I know :-)

@yo' -- the wording you show is what i'd use. (you'll see that in a number of tugboat reports.)

@barbarabeeton Thanks. I wasn't sure about "for" vs "on behalf of" -- the second one is just too long...

5:23 PM
Semolina pilchard climbing up the Eiffel tower!

@PauloCereda semoline? is that the couscous-like thingy?

@yo' Probably. :) It's from a Beatles song. :)

@yo' -- i'm sure i've seen "on behalf of", although i associate it more with speeches and presentation of awards. i like "for". it's short, and can't be misunderstood (i don't think).

@PauloCereda ah

@yo' <3

5:25 PM
@barbarabeeton ok, well. "For" could also be in the meaning "for the readers", but that just can't be confused I hope

@yo' -- "for the readers" would belong in a dedication, not in a signature. so context matters. but you're right about the similarity in wording.

@barbarabeeton I take it as a compliment :-)

@barbarabeeton overrightarrow answer will have to wait, need time to debug \ialign :-) (it's not the \smash wat did it) on the other hand if we mention \ialign enough it may interest @egreg enough to debug it for us.

@yo' -- and i take your trust in me as a compliment!

@barbarabeeton :)

5:33 PM
@DavidCarlisle -- okay. are you sure the \smash isn't involved? i thought it might also be the reason that the arrow is too close to the "M". (\smash[t] might have been more appropriate.) i haven't yet had a chance to try it out at "normal" size; after all, \Huge is magnified from a larger base for the alphabet, but always from 10pt for symbols, and that's bound to have an effect, not necessarily positive. (and yes, that is the sort of thing that seems to fascinate @egreg.)

@barbarabeeton yes I edited the arrow macros not to have relbar (ie just omit the extender entirely and just have a single arrowhead but it still overprinted when in the \ialign construct but I'd already spent too long on it at work so stopped, may try to look this weekend (but it's uktug tomorrow)

@DavidCarlisle -- have fun at uktug. in the dungeon. you must report on lunch!

@barbarabeeton look who arrived:-)

@barbarabeeton You rang?

5:43 PM
@barbarabeeton I kept him guessing and just referred to your email,

@DavidCarlisle -- ah, but there's a link before that. (got something to do with antiquity. i'm sure you'll appreciate that too.)

@egreg the construct is over sized but I'm not sure why \lineskip doesn't kick in to stop it overprinting the line above

@DavidCarlisle @barbarabeeton The overlapping is already in \normalsize, it is just less evident.

@egreg -- would the overlapping be there if the \relbar were not \smashed? at least the overlapping below?

@DavidCarlisle @yo I already answered this question in the same way but apparently he didn't like the answer. :)

5:48 PM
@barbarabeeton That shouldn't be a problem: the arrows have a height.

if the expression is put into an \fbox, it is clear all around. even with the \smash. so something else is going on. put it into a text block, with \newline after the preceding text, and directly following before another text line. i think the intention is to treat the "M" as a large operator (like \sum or \prod, but the submitter wasn't very specific about the intent.)

@DavidCarlisle @barbarabeeton Here's the reason:
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{amsmath}
\begin{document}
\fboxsep=-.2pt \fboxrule=.2pt

\noindent 1st line\\
\fbox{\Huge $\overleftrightarrow{M}$}\fbox{$\to$}

\noindent 1st line\\
$\overleftrightarrow{M}$
\end{document}
Blame Knuth for assigning so small a height to the arrow.

@egreg oh I thought I'd checked the arrow fitted in its box, must have confused myself.

@egreg -- okay. i'll double check that with plain tex. but that doesn't explain why there's also an overlap of the arrow with the "M", at least in the output i got. personally, i think that that arrow is horrendously too large in that context, which is why i'd like to know what is intended.

6:01 PM
@egreg i suppose the overarrow macros could use a small strut but not sure how big to make it in general for all fonts if the cm metricks are going to lie:-)

@DavidCarlisle .45ex seems to work for CM

@barbarabeeton the overlap below is much smaller, see the righthand box with the arrow in egreg's image, it just extends below and catches the serifs on the M, but th eoverlap above is pretty bad really

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{amsmath}
\usepackage{etoolbox}
\makeatletter
\patchcmd{\overarrow@}{\crcr}{\crcr\noalign{\kern.45ex}}{}{}
\makeatother
\begin{document}
\fboxsep=-.2pt \fboxrule=.2pt

\noindent 1st line\\
\fbox{\Huge $\overleftrightarrow{M}$}\fbox{$\to$}

\noindent 1st line\\
$\overleftrightarrow{M}$
\end{document}
@DavidCarlisle But other fonts don't need it

@egreg don't need but shouldn't hurt too much as long as the arrow heads are not tiny...

@DavidCarlisle -- i think other possible/probable contexts for the \over*arrows have to be looked at also. this example is way outside the contexts i would expect. and any change should work without adverse effect in the "normal" contexts.
@DavidCarlisle -- maybe better take a look at the latin modern math arrowheads ...

6:04 PM
@DavidCarlisle Try with fourier. :(
@barbarabeeton Actually the overarrow should use a style one step below the current math style. They've always been too big.

@DavidCarlisle -- agreed that the overlap above is (much) worse, but in the test i made, there was (slightly) more of an overlap than shown in @egreg's example.
@egreg -- i certainly don't disagree with that assessment. i'd just like to see tests with a few different steps before deciding.

@egreg also I was wondering if a strut might be better than the \noalign as it ends up in a mathchoice so the extra space ought to adjust

@DavidCarlisle I see no real way out. The CM arrows extend above the x-height, but the advertised height is 1ex (actually a bit less). If you add the strut, you end up with too big a space when using other fonts.

@egreg \ifx\textfontwhateve \*/cmsy/... add fudge factor \else don't\fi ?

@DavidCarlisle You are the maintainer of amsmath. :P
@DavidCarlisle Status: by design, I'd say.

6:17 PM
@egreg yes that has its appeal

1 hour later…
7:45 PM
@DavidCarlisle Unless you're able to convince all font package maintainers to add a specific value for an ad hoc parameter

7:59 PM
expl3: Is there any way to access the current count for _map_inline-macros, like \clist_map_inline:Nn ?

@RunarTrollet no, it would be non-expandable. Ah sorry, \clist_map_inline is non-expandable, so it would be possible; you can do it yourself...

yes, just wondering if there is such a count already set up.

@RunarTrollet no.

But thank you for clearing it up :)

@RunarTrollet What count are you referring to?

8:05 PM
@JosephWright can you mail me a mobile phone number for the case I'm searching for the room tomorrow?

@StefanKottwitz +44 797 4148180

@JosephWright For a clist I need to handle the last item differently than the others, so I thought I would check if the current item count is the last one.

@RunarTrollet \clist_use:Nnnn

@JosephWright thanks!
@JosephWright you don't have a Mac laptop, or do you?

@StefanKottwitz Yes, my own machine is a MacBook Pro

8:08 PM
@RunarTrollet as Joseph points out, there's a mechanism for that. I recommend reading the whole relevant chapter in interface3.pdf

@StefanKottwitz VMs available for Windows (currently Win7) or Ubuntu (currently 12)

@JosephWright great, I got the same! have a DVI adapter with me, but not VGA if needed

@StefanKottwitz I have a VGA adaptor, don't worry

@JosephWright and low on battery, and the UK has EU incompatible power :-(

@JosephWright Thank you.

8:10 PM
@StefanKottwitz Also will have charger and can bring a spare: do you need a MagSafe or MagSafe 2?

@JosephWright I prefer talk session 2 to have a chance to make a few edits in my slides :-) with your power adapter :-D
@JosephWright I don't know what Magsafe is... it's a Macbook Pro 2 years young, so I think a newer version

MagSafe is a series of proprietary magnetically attached power connectors, originally introduced by Apple Inc. on January 10, 2006, in conjunction with the MacBook Pro at the Macworld Expo in San Francisco, California. The connector is held in place magnetically so that if it is tugged — for example, by someone tripping over the cord — it will pull out of the socket without damaging the connector or the computer power socket, and without pulling the computer off the surface on which it is located. The concept of MagSafe is copied from the magnetic power connectors that are part of many deep fryers...

@JosephWright MagSafe 2

@StefanKottwitz I'll bring both (need to borrow my mum's charger: her machine is newer so is MagSafe 2, mine is older)
@StefanKottwitz OK, will bring one

@JosephWright mine uses similar but with friction rather than a magnet

8:16 PM
@DavidCarlisle :-)
@StefanKottwitz I'll get to Oxford city centre about 9am: I normally go for a coffee and pop into Blackwell's before the meeting. The latter is a famous bookshop and is next door to Trinity College.
Speaking of the meeting, still need to finish my slides

8:36 PM
has anyone converted from LaTeX -> Word before? I have seen questions on the site but I'm wondering what the result is like... and whether the document is still completely editable etc after the conversion? I mean, if the doc is written in LaTeX, then converted to Word, is the word editable?
I'm not familiar with word, so I'm not sure if there are things there that would just get goofed up or something.

@baxx Yes, you normally make an RTF which does work but needs some tidying up

if strikethroughs and stuff such as tex.stackexchange.com/questions/40253/… were used for example
How much tidying?
I'm thinking about doing this on behalf of someone

@baxx That's a piece-of-string question

yeah that's true - hrm... say the string / document had equations and such like the one that I've shown, strikethroughs, maths, images and such.
that's probably just as vague sos

@baxx lots of people with varying degrees of success

8:39 PM
yeah, sounds like it might not be worth it tbh
@DavidCarlisle have you made use of it personally?

@baxx if it is a single document likely to be as quick just to extract the text and add it in bits to word reformatting by hand

yeah but it was the diagonal strikethroughs and stuff, i don't think they'd copy

@baxx never use word (have a copy just because but I don't use it;-) but have helped enough people with things over the years, these days I'd probably convert to html latexml or tex4ht then import the html into word and see what come out

yeah - sounds like i might be asking a lot of people to do that way... I was hoping for some magic 'taa dah' conversion so they could write in latex and send off in word super easy. My bad :P

@baxx for maths I'd use a convertor to mathml (latexml, tex4ht or mathjax) and then copy the mathml into word, I have an answer about that

8:44 PM
oh ok , maybe there's a half way house!
thanks

50

You should be able to cut and paste mathematics from your web browser to Word (or any of the Micorsoft Office suite). Unfortunately at present you have to make a small edit but any text editor will do for that. Given x=\frac{-b\pm\sqrt{b^2-4ac}}{2a} Make a small html file that looks like <!...

how would this work with custom commands though?
just whatever mathjax can do, this can do basically?


tikZ isn't needed thankfully ! I've not really used mathjax before. Wanted to implement these tex.stackexchange.com/questions/40253/… , but willl look for a mathjax specific approach

@baxx mathjax has support for the cancel package if i remember correctly

8:52 PM
hrm ok cool

@baxx yes but they are extremes but the thing is you just never know, you may see a simple article class document that uses no hard looking packages then get half way through and find \makeatletter several hundred lines of trick tex macros copied from this site that are over-writing latex format internals.

I didn't follow that too well - you're saying what are extremes?

@baxx \newcommand\zzz{abc} and \tikz
@baxx and of course it's almost the season to mention
\let~\catcode~76~A13~F1~j00~P2jdefA71F~7113jdefPALLF
PA''FwPA;;FPAZZFLaLPA//71F71iPAHHFLPAzzFenPASSFthP;AFevP
AGGFRruoPAqq71.72.F717271PAYY7172F727171PA??Fi*LmPA&&71jfi
Fjfi71PAVVFjbigskipRPWGAUU71727374 75,76Fjpar71727375Djifx
RrhC?yLRurtKFeLPFovPgaTLtReRomL;PABB71 72,73:Fjif.73.jelse
B73:jfiXF71PU71 72,73:PWs;AMM71F71diPAJJFRdriPAQQFRsreLPAI
I71Fo71dPA!!FRgiePBt'el@ lTLqdrYmu.Q.,Ke;vz vzLqpip.Q.,tz;
which is I know one of the test files for the latexml convertor...

that looks nice.... I'm thinking that this person can write in MathJaX and copy into the word doc, so that the use would be restricted to just having the mathjax handle maths.
maybe that would be most simple

9:06 PM
I can't seem to get \newcommand to work for me ... is this off topic?

@JosephWright, @DavidCarlisle, @StefanKottwitz, @PauloCereda -- i hope you have a really great meeting.
2

@baxx mathjax yes but put the newcommand inside a math environment (or add them via javascript)

    $\newcommand{\C}{1}{\cancel{#1}}$

@baxx You have {1} that should be [1]. Moreover you need \require{cancel} for MathJax.
$\require{cancel}\newcommand{\C}[1]{\cancel{#1}}$

$\C{xyx}$

@egreg ace thanks - it's working now, just having a play , hopefully it transfers into word ok

9:17 PM
Trivia fact: Jon Skeet has just reached 900K

10:12 PM
@egreg did you get a painting when you reached 200K?

@bleh No unicorn. :(

@egreg Oh. sux