TeX, LaTeX and Friends

Joseph Wright

06:17

@Manuel Can you point me to the comment? Basically \scantokens has some 'issues'

@Manuel Note that you need the \noexpand (or one of a few other possible tricks) in an \edef context, not if the \scantokens is used inline. The latter case is handled using a character with two different catcodes for 'cleanup'

@Manuel Ah, found the comment: that's not the case where you need \noexpand

Manuel

@JosephWright @egreg Okey, I really don't know what was going on, just was making sure. So still, the \noexpand is indeed needed when inside an \edef (if one chooses that trick instead of others)? Or does it work in \edef with \relax (for instance).

Manuel

06:37

Okey, I see that the question I linked is precisely the explanation of these things :)

In any case, could anyone explain why and what happens what wipet's says? What exactly is \noexpand doing wrong there (that “ignores” the \endlinechar and works on \iftrue) that \relax solves? (I think I've intuition about what happens, but to see it explained in a line or two :D).

My intuition is as if I literally had a file with \noexpand on one line and \iftrue in the next, obviously, because the first line ends with a control sequence, there's no “space” (the same way there's no need for % at the end of that line), and the result is \noexpand\iftrue which leads to an error. In that case, any control sequence at the end of such line would be enough to not need %, hence using \relax.

In case that's true, why is it different inside \edef?

Joseph Wright

07:13

@Manuel I'll look over this later: \relax certainly doesn't work inside \edef as TeX tries to expand a forbidden token

\edef\test{\scantokens{foo\relax}}

->foo\relax
! File ended while scanning definition of \test.
<inserted text>
                }
l.1 \edef\test{\scantokens{foo\relax}
                                     }

@Manuel As I said, \scantokens is not really properly set up but it is what it is: LuaTeX's \scantextokens is probably what was meant

Manuel

08:32

@JosephWright Okey, it's not urgent, so no hurry, I'm just curious. Also, after playing a little bit this also doesn't work \detokenize\expandafter{\scantokens{foo}} and i don't understand it. If yo could point to a reference about \scantokens it would be great. I imagine \scantextokens a primitive in LuaTeX? And it can be used \scantextokens{whatever} and \edef\q{\scantextokens{whatever}} and it works as expected?

Joseph Wright

09:43

@Manuel The formal reference for \scantokens is the e-TeX manual but it's not really clear on these issues. Essentially the knowledge about the problems of \scantokens comes from experiences. As you say, \scantextokens is a LuaTeX primitive

Paulo Cereda

10:42

Quack!

Single Fighter

11:09

the following does not compile.

\documentclass{standalone}
\begin{document}
\begin{enumerate}
\item foo
\end{enumerate}
\end{document}

a bug?

Paulo Cereda

6

Q: Can we use enumerate with standalone class?

Can we use \enumerate with \standalone class? Isn't enumerate basic LaTeX? The minimal example, which does not compile with standalone but it does with article, is: \documentclass{standalone} \usepackage{tikz} \begin{document} \begin{enumerate} \item test ...

@SingleFighter No. :)

Christian Hupfer

Good maen

Paulo Cereda

@ChristianHupfer HELP, THEY ARE BEING MEAN TO ME AGAIN

I mean, 'ello! :)

Single Fighter

@PauloCereda Thanks alot.

Christian Hupfer

@PauloCereda That's ok .... I mean ... Oh no :D

Paulo Cereda

11:12

@ChristianHupfer You are mean. <3

Christian Hupfer

@PauloCereda Yes, and proud of it :-P

Paulo Cereda

@ChristianHupfer You naughty German

Christian Hupfer

@PauloCereda <3

@PauloCereda: I am sure whereas other children played Good cop -- bad cop you played Good duck -- good duck ;-)

Paulo Cereda

@ChristianHupfer vid.me/7IxX

Christian Hupfer

12:22

@PauloCereda Nice dancing bird

Paulo Cereda

@ChristianHupfer Did you enjoy the song? :)

Christian Hupfer

@PauloCereda: There was sound?

Paulo Cereda

@ChristianHupfer Of course! That was the beauty of it!

Christian Hupfer

@PauloCereda Ah -- perhaps I should not play it in Physics Lab Course while waiting students to finish their experiments ;-)

@PauloCereda: My today's experiment is INDUCKTION ;-)

Paulo Cereda

@ChristianHupfer do it. :)

Paulo Cereda

14:36

lalalalalalalalala

Breaking the silence. :)

Christian Hupfer

@PauloCereda Sssh .....

@PauloCereda: Just rewriting arara in assembly language ;-)

Paulo Cereda

@ChristianHupfer oh

yo'

14:54

@PauloCereda ripping some classical music :)

Paulo Cereda

@yo' ooh

yo'

@PauloCereda Currently The Four Seasons

egreg

@DavidCarlisle You'll be happy VVVV

Both great answers! I flipped a coin. — Willie Wong 2 hours ago

Nasser

15:28

@michal.h21 hi Michal. do you know about enumeration list limitation in tex4ht? I have a table, each cell is "p". In a cell, I make enumeration list, expecting each entry to show below the next, as in PDF. But tex4ht generates HTML where the lists can be on same line, next to each others, and not always below each others. I though enumeration lists are always below each others. But may be you know of some limitation?

i.e my lists, say \item A \item B, etc.... in PDF they show below each others as expected, but in HTML they say show on same "line", horizontal as in A B. I tried itemize and description, enumerate and it depends on the size of the column how they show up. I wanted them to always show below each others.

michal.h21

15:53

@Nasser I think I would need a MWE for this :)

Nasser

@michal.h21 sure, I can make one, but will take sometime. It is basically a long table, with 4 columns. Each cell has 4 items in it. and it seems impossible to make tex4ht arrange these 4 items on top of each others. 2 of the items are \HCode. May be that is why. I tried all the tricks I can, but can't make them on top of each others, sometimes two of them come next to each others. Will make MWE later today I hope.

@michal.h21 will post a question when I make one later today if I can. Thanks.

Paulo Cereda

yo'

@PauloCereda LOL

Why does "creating image checksum" take 4 times longer than the CD burning itself?! Also, the burner makes noises as if it were doing random seeks on the CD

Paulo Cereda

16:09

@yo' That sounds like Brasero. :)

I use K3B because if this nuisance. :)

egreg

@PauloCereda The Cookie Monster would solve the issue instantly by getting rid of the item.

Alan Munn

@egreg You mean Biscuit Monster?

egreg

@AlanMunn Definitely cookies. :P

Paulo Cereda

16:25

@egreg good plan. :)

Alan Munn

@egreg Nom nom nom.

2

Paulo Cereda

@AlanMunn ooh

:)

yo'

16:58

@PauloCereda yeah, it is. Do you know what can I do with it? It still lasts, getting close to 1 hour

Paulo Cereda

@yo' I stopped using Brasero because of this checksum thingy. Maybe there's an option to turn checksum off. I moved to K3B since.

yo'

@PauloCereda it used to take some time always, but 1 hour is too much :(

Paulo Cereda

@yo' I know the feeling.

yo'

@PauloCereda the question is: will it ever end?! Or will it destroy my drive before?

Paulo Cereda

@yo' It will end, eventually. :) Just take a deep breath.

yo'

17:03

@PauloCereda I had too shitty leave 45 minutes ago you know.... :-(

yo'

17:19

80 minutes :-( I think I will kill the process and send the CD to the Brasero programmers, saying "SEE YOU IDIOTS!!!"

At least if I knew how long it's gonna take. That's pissing me off the most I think.

Paulo Cereda

@yo' I never saw Brasero take so much time like this.

yo'

@PauloCereda I will kill it. This is enough.

Paulo Cereda

@yo' Sorry to hear this issue.

yo'

This was enough. CD image of course unreadable and I spent fucking 100 minutes on it.

[root@toheshiba ~]# yum remove brasero

Paulo Cereda

11

Q: How can I disable checksum feature in brasero?

Is there any option in brasero to disable the checksum feature in brasero? It slows down the burning.

brasero md5sum

@yo' Tom, either disable checksum as per this thread or use K3B.

yo'

17:33

@PauloCereda NEVER AGAIN! Creating one fucking number cannot take 90 minutes. Fuck that program

took 4 minutes with K3b.

Shitty 4 minutes

Paulo Cereda

@yo' K3B is an awesome program. It's the only KDE thingy I use and I am more than happy to install any KDE shared lib because of it.

yo'

@PauloCereda the install was about 80MB, not too bad.

Puzzle anybody?

egreg

@yo' If it contained music by Martinů, I'm very happy.

yo'

@egreg well, it contained something else, doesn't matter, but the point is, it was unreadable, thanks to Brasero's idiocy.

egreg

@yo' Smetana? Dvořák? I'm happy as well. ;-)

yo'

17:49

@egreg Smetana will be next actually, with Má vlast

Alan Munn

@yo' Music came too late to the Czechs for @egreg.

yo'

@AlanMunn yeah, he's retired before Cyril and Metodej came into the Czechlands.

Alan Munn

@yo' :)

Paulo Cereda

People are so mean in this week. :)

Alan Munn

@PauloCereda They lost in soccer.

yo'

17:56

@AlanMunn in what?

egreg

@AlanMunn Well, there were Zach, Vanhal, Mysliveček and others. :)

Alan Munn

18:35

3

futilitycloset.com/2016/07/05/fenceposts

Paulo Cereda

@AlanMunn My optometrist always ask me where my eyes get worse. :)

yo'

20:09

@AlanMunn Well, it takes some time to parse text into letters even in a usual text written with a gothic font...

And actually, one thing that makes it (IMHO) difficult to read Cyrillic is the lack of ascenders and descenders

@egreg why every Vivaldi's CD contains the Four Seasons? :D

Joseph Wright

@yo' He wrote the same tune 600 times ;-)

yo'

@JosephWright must be it.

And btw, a comment to Vivaldi's Sinfonia C major:

> To bardzo piękne!!!!! This is probably the first heavy metal in the word.

egreg

@yo' Not in my collection. ;-)

yo'

@egreg well, I've got 3 random CDs from who knows where, and all have it there :)

I love when the CDs miss the author's indexing number

yo'

21:14

the same with Handel and Feuerwerksmusik

Anonymous

21:54

Is it possible, with LaTeX, to convert a number sequence in to MIDI music?

David Carlisle

@VincentVerheyen well as it's turing complete the answer is presumably yes although that doesn't always mean it's a good idea:-), but what mapping do you have in mind, and what output format for the midi (as tex can not write binary files, you'd need a text representation of the same)

yo'

@VincentVerheyen WHAT?!

barbara beeton

@DavidCarlisle -- a slight grumble about your answer re proof and trivlist. it would most likely have been based on something else if leslie hadn't thought that every paragraph was some kind of list. there really are other ways to do this.

Anonymous

@DavidCarlisle I am looking for some kind of MIDI or MAMX file to play with Smalin's software, i.e. to visualize the music. --- Am not sure what exactly the format should be.

David Carlisle

@barbarabeeton I concentrated on what was wrong with the simple version, not ways to implement a better one , but I think the objections to using trivlist environment would be less if it had been called "generaldisplayblock" and then your above comment would be written as "Leslie thought every list was a special case of generaldisplayblock " which sounds morer reasonable:-)

Anonymous

22:05

@DavidCarlisle It could be in Hexadecimal?

David Carlisle

@VincentVerheyen but midi files are binary, that mamx format (that I have never heard of previously) looks to be a simple text file, clearly you could write that from tex (but why tex, you could write it from anything.

Anonymous

@DavidCarlisle When I open .midi in a hex editor, it seems like converting between hex and binary is easy? --- Didn't take a look at MAMW yet, thanks.

David Carlisle

@VincentVerheyen converting between any number base is a trivial operation but binary formats are normally not constructed in a way that makes writing them as text easy. I know nothing of midi's format but it would be massively painful to write a hex dump of pdf for example as the binary format contains byte offsets into the file, so you have to construct the whole thing in memory as binary and then hexify it for output rather that being able to stream the generation. But anyway you don't answer

what mapping from numbers you had in mind, and why use tex:-)

yo'

@DavidCarlisle maybe the question is the other way around: why use MIDI? :-)

David Carlisle

@yo' I know as much about music encodings as I do about Czech, but at least I've heard of MIDI:-)

Anonymous

22:13

I just thought of using tex, because I have that running on my mac. I currently don't have Windows bought/installed, yet I find a lot of software options to convert number sequences into MIDI. Therefor, I got frustrated with this; and thought of creating the music on something I already have installed ...

I just want to fiddle around with visualizing e.g. all the divisors of a large series of composite numbers or so ... Want to visualize some mathematics. --- And, well, sound may be a nice addition too. It seems like, when you want to visualize audio, then MIDI is a nice format which can w…

David Carlisle

@VincentVerheyen you must have a more suitable programming language on your mac than tex for doing such a conversion, perl or python or bash or C or javascript or ....

@VincentVerheyen what does it mean to convert a number sequence to midi, if i give you 1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21 what does that sound like as a midi file????

yo'

@VincentVerheyen You could probably convert the numbers into .ly file and then use lilypond to convert to midi

Anonymous

@DavidCarlisle Well, I guess a human can distinguish between about 80 notes. So, the most basic idea is to start with 1 at the lowest note, then you are stuck at 80; so you would probably only be interested in the let's say 70 lowest numbers, for 1 musical output. But for my first use-case, you could concentrate on the lowest 70 numbers, as for divisors of ever larger growing numbers.

David Carlisle

@yo' then we should play all the generated midi files to @egreg he has a very wide taste in music and would no doubt appreciate such things

Anonymous

@DavidCarlisle I guess I only have bash then? ... But no programming skills.

Anonymous

22:24

@yo' Thanks, I am looking into it.

David Carlisle

@VincentVerheyen well you must have javascript, I don't have a mac but does it not come with perl and python by default?

Anonymous

@DavidCarlisle O, you mean without a GUI ... I guess so? ... I have no clue.

David Carlisle

@VincentVerheyen who wants a gui:-)

Anonymous

@yo' Perhaps then I should first write a script to convert the numbers into .ly notation? If I were to do it with the Lilypond GUI, it might take a long while, for large sequences?

yo'

@VincentVerheyen Lilypond has a GUI?!

David Carlisle

22:30

@yo' strangely its interface looks identical to that of tex, or bash or c or Fortran....

(for @PauloCereda ^^)

Anonymous

@yo' OK. I guess the main menu is as far as it goes hé ...

yo'

22:43

Beethoven composed a 15-second piece? Now that man was crazy!

Anonymous

@yo' Where is that?

yo'

@VincentVerheyen Bagatelle Op. 119 No X

Actually, it's only 9 seconds!

Anonymous

@yo' Seems like it. Can't find it played on the net?

yo'

@VincentVerheyen I've got a CD that contains it...

Anonymous

22:58

I don't know why

<d g>4

gives an error in Lilypond

yo'

@VincentVerheyen is that all of your file?

{
 <d g>4
}

Anonymous

23:19

Sorry, I meant:

<d e f h>4

Anonymous

So, the whole file would be (I'm debugging here hey):

\relative {
<d e f h>4
}

Anonymous

23:34

@yo' OK. Found it, of course "h" doesn't exist.

Paulo Cereda

23:47

@DavidCarlisle :)

@yo': I use Frescobaldi. :)

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$TeX - LaTeX$ TeX, LaTeX and Friends