@PauloCereda Is printscreening the window at dejavu a coincidence or an intention? :)

Morning @DavidCarlisle: everything working now between you and comedy?

carlisle@comedy:~$ pwd
/home/carlisle
carlisle@comedy:~$ hostname
comedy

@JosephWright seems so ^^ :-)

@DavidCarlisle Good

Any active linux users here ? I have a question in shell script. I am trying to run a script like this ./file1.sh input1 input2 (where input1 and input2 are some input arguments) and i am trying to echo a string mentioned in the beginning of the script. However I can't see it being printed out on terminal. why would this happen ?

@user_rak Sorry, but it's impossible to say if you don't give an example.

@user_rak that's strange. How do you code it? (Btw, please remember that chat is generally not the place to ask questions...)

@yo' oh my!

By the way, where is Christian these days?

@Johannes_B On vacation. :)

Say I have two coordinates in tikz, (A) = (xa,ya) and (B)=(xb,yb), what is the best way of getting (C) = (0,max(ya,yb)), when all I know is (A) and (B)?

@PauloCereda I want vacation as well.

Does this chat room has a postal address, so @Christian can send us a post card?

he can try the SE HQ, the folks up there are quite funny, they may decide to scan it and post the scan in this room :-)

@JosephWright new feature:

! Undefined control sequence.
l.93 \newcount

@DavidCarlisle Interesting!

see who's on slide 4!

slideshare.net/jaguardesignstudio/…

@egreg Some of the re-organised docstrip guards may be suboptimal....

@DavidCarlisle Comparing a complete ten page program (with commented source) with a six line shell script using tr, uniq, sort and sed is unfair. I'm quite sure that the commented source of those four programs would be a lot more than ten pages.

@egreg true but I once went to a talk where someone was showing the benefits of a three or four line expl3 program, without showing half a million lines of expl3 source....

@DavidCarlisle :)

@egreg also, I don't see why sed ${1}q is better than head -n $1. Certainly it's not clearer; other than that, the program is quite clear and the commented source would be still 6 lines, maybe 8

@yo' Yes, of course; but it has nothing to do with why zsh is better than other shells.

@egreg indeed. None of the tools is zsh-specific

@yo' That just shows the advantage of a higher level interface over a low level one. And Knuth's program is “platform independent”, provided you have a Pascal compiler.

I've never used zsh, but to me it appears that it's for blondes. (Now I don't mean the colour of hair, rather the state of mind brain)

@yo' Real men use tcsh. ;-)

@egreg indeed; the code for sed is surely in thousands, very likely much more :)

@egreg I'm really happy with bash, to me all this fuss seems like "it's only because defaults are always bad". It's like with desktop managers: I truly hate G3, that's true, so I went back to MATE. Many people use this or that just because "it's cool to use something non-standard".

@yo' I'm too. The fact is that with tcsh you have to reinvent the wheel several times, which makes it attractive for some people. ;-)

@egreg and don't take me wrong, I understand that some people prefer other shells, mostly people who do a lot of sheel scripting; but how many such people are there? I do quite some shell scripting, and I never needed anything else than what bash offers.

@yo' zsh has a lot of bells and whistles for the command line, at the expense of being very complicated in some aspects (defining new command completions, for instance). I don't think it eases scripting.

@egreg some of the ideas are a bit scary, needed to say. No, I don't like zsh from the talk; to me it appears like what I call "a loss of control"

@egreg \newcount is defined again, I'm sure you will be relieved:-)

@DavidCarlisle Check also \newdimen, please. ;-)

@egreg you should be thankful for what you have!

@DavidCarlisle OK, I'll use count registers for lenghts.

@egreg and mathchardef tokens:-)

@DavidCarlisle Did you saw on texhax the ! No room for a new \dimen . discussion?

@UlrikeFischer no. sigh, I suppose I should look...

@UlrikeFischer grr I asked David K to update bigfoot months ago..:-)

@DavidCarlisle Well better it is his fault than some problem with the new latex ;-)

@DavidCarlisle David Karlisle. :)

@UlrikeFischer well not really his fault, but still.... :-)

@DavidCarlisle Fault was probably the wrong word, but still better than some hidden unknown bug in latex.

@UlrikeFischer I have a version of \newinsert planned that should remove the need to declare inserts early (as when the allocation runs out they can be taken from the float lists, and the float list increased using \extrafloats to compensate) that gives you 18 or so inserts (or 64000 in luatex) after the allocatation system has used all the classic registers) But for now, bigfoot not loading etex, and just loading it before the the registers are used up should work well.

Can anybody think of an animal starting with the letter U?

@Johannes_B Uhu

@Johannes_B unicorn

@UlrikeFischer The only one i could come up with as well.

@DavidCarlisle golatex.de/viewtopic,p,75412.html#75412 ;-)

@Johannes_B there is a web page for everything:

animalstown.com/animals/animals-u.php

@Johannes_B Seems difficult in english en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikijunior:Animal_Alphabet/U

@DavidCarlisle Missing from the english wiki page :-) <- @Ulrike

Have you ever heard of those animals?

@Johannes_B urial yes I think, others no:-)

@Johannes_B stick to Unicorn:-)

@egreg: ^^ one of my subsections in the ArsTeXnica article. :)

@PauloCereda funny that you style arara in a different font...

@yo' I decided to use the official logo. :)

@PauloCereda let's see what the copy editor thinks of it ... :)

@yo' Uh-oh. :)

@PauloCereda Just tell the editors to publish your document as-is or you will take it elsewhere. (Journal editors like authors like that, ask @yo')

@DavidCarlisle @egreg is one of the editors. :)

@DavidCarlisle most journal editors would answer: "Our pleasure." It would likely be the final word :)

@Johannes_B -- ursus (as in "ursus pu"), but i suppose that's cheating.

@PauloCereda definitely do as I suggest then.

@DavidCarlisle LOL

@barbarabeeton by the way, finally writing something up concerning templates, summing up some stated thoughts.

@Johannes_B -- thanks. it's on my to-do list as well, but i have to finish editing the proceedings articles first.

Computer, why you sooo slooooww?

Friends, what's the correct way: two minutes tutorial or two-minute tutorial?

@PauloCereda two-minute

@PauloCereda -- the latter: two-minute tutorial. (same as "the tutorial will take two minutes.") the plural indicator is (almost?) always removed when the expression becomes an adjective. (well, i can't think of any exceptions, at least not this early in the morning.)

@David, @barbara: thank you. :)

@PauloCereda worrying that I agree with an American on a point of English Grammar

@DavidCarlisle Spooky. :)

@David: I heard that Shakespeare always came up with words when he needed them. :P

@PauloCereda c'mon, that's how new words are created!

@yo' I am enshocked!

Small thunderstorm at the beach 😒

@egreg ooh unicode smiley!

@Johannes_B Naturally in your code the problem doesn't show as you have only one page ... (but as the OP has been told more than once to provide examples I will wait him out).

@UlrikeFischer Exactly my point. All that biblatex hacks are by now just annoying me. And i think our helping guest as well.

@PauloCereda iPhone keyboard 😃

@egreg <3

@Johannes_B Yes I would have stopped much earlier ;-). Btw can be done something about all this icons before links in golatex posts? They are driving me mad. I don't want colored pictures everywhere in a text.

@UlrikeFischer What kind of icons do you mean?

@Johannes_B E.g. here in the answer golatex.de/absatzabstand-t15841.html. Before the link to setspace there is a large folder icon.

Guys, I need help.

@UlrikeFischer I don't know, but i think @StefanKottwitz will know more details.

I have this:

\begin{verbatim}
% arara: <directive>
\end{verbatim}

@UlrikeFischer I signed up for texhax (again:-) been a while....

But I'd like $\langle\textit{directive}\rangle$.

Suggestions?

@PauloCereda \texttt{\% arara:} $\langle\textit{directive}\rangle$

@DavidCarlisle :) Inside verbatim? :)

@PauloCereda no

@DavidCarlisle I'm reading it only through gmane in my newsreader (I try to keep mail trafic low ...)

@DavidCarlisle Oh. I was expecting something crazy. :)

@UlrikeFischer I wondered about something like that but it looks reasonably low (compared to my email traffic anyway) so I just signed up.

@PauloCereda probably you could do something with listings and set up <> to do the math brackets and italic,

@DavidCarlisle hm good plan. :)

@PauloCereda but if it's only one line, the above works already

@DavidCarlisle Speaking of which, something seems to be up with LaTeX-L

@JosephWright expecting mail on it?

@DavidCarlisle I sent one yesterday, hasn't come through yet

@JosephWright last I see was on the peek functions

@DavidCarlisle Indeed

@JosephWright do we know anyone at Heidelberg?

@DavidCarlisle I don't: I assume Frank/Rainer do

@JosephWright Probably Rainer, wearing a different hat:-)

@DavidCarlisle I suspect so

@percusse You might find this amusing: The failure mode of clever

@barbarabeeton Once you kill the LaTeX process, you get the aux file cut in a completely random place (mostly depending on the typical caching of writing to files in your system). It's possible that the true problem is \alhpa instead of \alpha 2 pages after the section title that produced this \contentsline

@yo' -- agreed, but why is it reported in the screen shot that the .aux file was read successfully (followed by closing parenthesis)? if the error was in the reading of the .aux file, then it should still be open, no?

@barbarabeeton no, it ran off the end of the aux file looking for } so closed the file then gave the error

@UlrikeFischer That's a package symbol. I decided to insert small icons at links to packages or documentation (small book icon), because a big portion of the users don't seem to understand links. I preferred a small icon to, what I saw very often before: "link (<- this is a link you can click!)" and similar, frequently used by some people.

@UlrikeFischer It's programmed, so I can change it at any time when there's another idea of clearly stating there's something special you can click on (not just emphasized). This may also be seen with an information sign at the common MWE link somewhere, so newbies know there is information.

I'm scared of the fascistic mood in the Czech society :-(

@StefanKottwitz What i don't understand is in our time of internet access in busses and restrooms, how can users that basically had internet access their whole life don't know what a link is.

@yo' In your country as well? Oh my.

@Johannes_B should I translate you some things found in discussions on FCB?

@yo' Please not, i have read enough in german already.

@Johannes_B ok

@StefanKottwitz Yes, I know what symbol it is for (I also checked the source code), but it is driving me really mad. My eyes jump from icon to icon. I understand that you want to show a link, but why must it shout so loud? Colored bold links with large icons. That's like the people who make every third word bold to show that it is important. On my website I use triangles - and I do find them a bit too intrusive too.

@yo' What bothers me most, is that one group attacks the other. The guys wanting to help refugees (verbally) attack the opponents (and even the press).

@Johannes_B that's fortunately not that bad here. People supporting "calm discussion about the problem" so far manage to stay calm. There's an academic petition asking basically for calm, no populism and true seeking of solutions. Almost 3000 scientists have signed so far (that's quite a number I think). So we start hearing that "those academics live in a world of their own" and "we all know how to use rod on them; after all, we know the names" etc. I'm really scared. (I singed too of course!)

@UlrikeFischer It should jump into the face of newbies who don't know that bold things are informational links (not shouting) or underlined, historically. Sometimes it feels like shouting if people write: Post a minimal example so I can understand rookies if they would feel annoyed but don't click on it. I can think it over, I'm open to ideas wich help solving it.

@yo' Sad. :-(

@UlrikeFischer Spontanuous idea: don't show such icons to users with a certain post count, because they usually know.

@StefanKottwitz Everybody starter will feel annoyed when said to read something, that will at least take half an hour to read, and maybe two hours to prepare. I fully understand that.

@StefanKottwitz A "don't show icons" in the profile or (hidden somewhere) would be fine. And links don't need be bold.

@UlrikeFischer I had a small arrow marking links, earlier

@UlrikeFischer I won't have much time in August for programming, but then could look into it

The point behind meta.tex.stackexchange.com/a/6257/17423 kinda 'hit me' -- should we try to provide translations for the 'What is an MWE?' post? I know SE is in English (and in my case, thank goodness), but links out to external material in different languages would probably help a lot of our users. Maybe Parsi-LaTeX and TeXwelt have similar posts we could link to from the top of the question on our site.

@SeanAllred texwelt.de/wissen/fragen/569/…

@SeanAllred Something like that might be helpful, for sure. See e.g. this post today, in which the person didn't know the English term and couldn't search for the info very easily.

@SeanAllred There is also minimalbeispiel.de

@Johannes_B Thanks for the link! The Q has been updated. The second resource you provide should probably be linked to the teXwelt question

@AlanMunn That kind of a language barrier is frustrating :( I'm not sure how that can be helped though.

@SeanAllred Well as I note in my last comment, the LaTeX Intro has been translated into lots of languages, so reading the English one alongside one's own is a place to start.

@AlanMunn Oh, certainly. But there's not much we can do as a site (other than perhaps advertise the translations on an appropriate CW-Q)

@AlanMunn sorry, that's just lack of willingness to google something for 2 minutes. They should know the notion in their language and then they can use a dictionary, or wikipedia. In case of subscript and German, this works really well, I just tried.

@yo' Yes, well that's true too. But I erred on the side of niceness.

@AlanMunn well, my opinion is that providing support to non-English speaking people on this site is impossible, beyond sending them to another site (texwelt, parsilatex, ...)

@yo' I know from experience that many german users lack the right term of things. Instead we get quite a bit of doesn't work.

@Johannes_B I didn't know how a certain piece of meat is called in French. Wikipedia saved me, but it took like 15 minutes to find the information. It works, if you try :-)

@yo' Oh, I totally agree. But it's also true that pointers to some ways of learning or alternative sites might be helpful. One thing that is a bit tricky though, is that it's easy to offend people by making comments about their language skills unless they've explicitly said something about them.

@yo' Sure. you know how to use google.

@yo' That's a funny one. In Ontario, where I grew up, most of the butchers are German. When I moved to Québec all the cuts of meat were different. Not just names, but actual ways to cut up the animal. So meat translations are actually really hard in most languages.

@AlanMunn The best side, in my opinion :)

@AlanMunn Hahaha that was nice!

@percusse I thought it would especially appeal to your sense of humour.

Comments were also amusing :)

I have reserved my sixth seventh and nineteenth sense for such stuff

The twelve inbetween is to decide whether something is really funny or not :P

@percusse :)

Can someone test the follomg code and report the blg? Would be nice, thanks. :-)

\documentclass{article}
\begin{document}
\nocite{companion}
\bibliography{biblatex-examples.bib}
\bibliographystyle{plain}
\end{document}

@Johannes_B

[0] Config.pm:324> INFO - This is Biber 2.1
[0] Config.pm:327> INFO - Logfile is 'deneme20.blg'
[75] biber-MSWIN:273> INFO - === %a %b %e, %Y, %H:%M:%S
[76] Biber.pm:333> INFO - Reading 'deneme20.bcf'
[396] Utils.pm:146> WARN - No data sources defined!

@percusse biber? The mwe does not use biblatex

@Johannes_B Pff. I was reading the code with my ear and jumped to the biblatex word. hang on

Is it a bib file like mwe package provides?

@percusse Yes, it should just run. Or report an error, let's see.

@Johannes_B it runs if I remove the bib extension

This is BibTeX, Version 0.99dThe top-level auxiliary file: deneme20.aux
The style file: plain.bst
Database file #1: biblatex-examples.bib
Warning--empty year in companion
(There was 1 warning)

@percusse Strange thing is, it works for me even with the extension

This is BibTeX, Version 0.99d (TeX Live 2015)
The top-level auxiliary file: jonasBibtex.aux
The style file: plain.bst
Database file #1: biblatex-examples.bib.bib
Warning--empty year in companion
(There was 1 warning)

@Johannes_B Are you using Lua?

@Alan @Johannes Sorry guys for disappearing, I was busy and now I gotta go. See you later.

@yo' See you :-)

@percusse latexmk -pdf $basename

No idea why then

@Johannes_B boo

@PauloCereda Sorry :-)

@Johannes_B Texlive allows the ending, miktex not.

@UlrikeFischer I did not know that. I was writing the lines, latexmk and a short visual on the produced output.

@Johannes_B Not quite sure what the remark with latexmk has to do with it ;-). I only know that bibtex handles this differently on the systems (I ran into the problem some time ago, but as I can read log-file the source of the problem was obvious ...)

@UlrikeFischer latexmk starts the enxt run and that log was filling the whole screen. I did not bother to look at the blg.

@UlrikeFischer There is a sample file for bibtex with entries for lamports books and articles. I forget the name all the time.

@yo' Guess where that lhead is coming from in the code: tex.stackexchange.com/q/262491/37907

@Johannes_B Wikibooks? Do I win something?

@egreg No :-p sunilpatel.co.uk/thesis-template

@Johannes_B Interesting: a site to avoid. ;-)

@egreg Avoid? Why? There is a lot of useful information: Run through the “thesis.tex” file a couple of times with LaTeX and BibTeX to obtain the final output

@Johannes_B Even more interesting!

@egreg Interesting: sunilpatel.co.uk/thesis-template/template-faq/#comment-8260

@Johannes_B oh, goodness

@repurposer Do you have a link where the font can be downloaded? Or is it non-free?

@Johannes_B It's a Microsoft font. Comes with Office (and perhaps Windows?).

@AlanMunn Ah Microsoft.

@AlanMunn @AlanMunn is right. It's not really important that I use that font, but it has a lot of options. I would take suggestions.

@repurposer So the hooked 'd' is the problem?

@AlanMunn No, my XeTeX (Texlive via MiKTeX) is rendeing the first 'n' as an end of line alternate

@AlanMunn Which then overlaps the second word

@repurposer Ah, I see (I was compiling with LuaTeX, which is my default engine.) I see now. So LuaTeX shows a different problem, since you don't get the end n either.

@AlanMunn Hm, I haven't gotten LuaTeX to work with my installation of TeXLive

@AlanMunn *I should say, not TexLive, MiKTeX with TeXworks

@repurposer It should be in the same drop-down menu next to the green triangle.

Right, it fails immediately with "I can't find the format file `miktex-luatex.fmt'!"

@Johannes_B and LuaLaTeX fails with:

I have been using XeLaTeX + MakeIndex + BibTeX while trying fontspec

@repurposer Seen this before. One moment.

@repurposer Any chance that you can read german?

@Johannes_B I work in science research, I can find help ;)

@repurposer Same problem: golatex.de/viewtopic,p,74399.html#74399 Never finished diagnosing :-(

@repurposer I have to admit, that i am neither Miktex, nor Windows nor font experienced.

@Johannes_B It's ok, I am still in the trial-and-error stage with the latter

@repurposer There's something odd with that font. I can't seem to find the long tailed n as a substitution for n in the font under any stylistic set. Yet somehow XeLaTeX is displaying it.

@AlanMunn Maybe. Any fun free .otf you know of to play with?

@repurposer No, not really. I don't do much with fonts except for Junicode (for medievelists) and phonetic fonts. I use Minion Pro typically for most printed things and I've come to like Cambria for presentations.

@AlanMunn Thanks. I am going to try an update, see if that changes anything, then move on!

@repurposer You might want to ask your question on the main site and point out the difference between XeLaTeX and LuaLaTeX. People will grumble about the M$ font, but plenty of people will have it anyway. :) To make the example clear, I would make the main font also Gabriola and show the same text without the stylistic set.

@AlanMunn I'll include a screen grab from the Word 2010 interpretation as well. Might not be this afternoon

@AlanMunn Gabriola Cravo e Canola. :P

@repurposer So the Word version puts the long 'n' on the end, but not at the end of Von?

@PauloCereda :)

@AlanMunn One of the worst puns of today. :)

@PauloCereda Hey, in Portuguese you don't get to make many puns, so I would say bem feito!

@DavidCarlisle I see LaTeX-L has returned

@AlanMunn No, it puts the long 'n' at the end of every word, regardless of other context (so, non-end-of-line words get it, though they should not)

@AlanMunn oh, misread - The Word version does not put the long 'n' on the end of 'Von', only on 'Brown'

@repurposer Ok. Is there a place where the stylistic sets are described?

@AlanMunn looking. did find that the version I have has been since updated. Don't know how to update fonts in MSW

@repurposer Me neither. (And I'm using a Mac, so I'm sure things are different with Windows).

@PauloCereda This is something that could be answered with arara instead of simpdftex

@egreg Indeed.

Let me test here.

@PauloCereda This one too:

@PauloCereda I think that ps2pdf13 can be called as ps2pdf -dCompatibility=1.3

@egreg Hm interesting. Marco already let options available in rules.

@barbarabeeton Some first thoughts laid down github.com/johannesbottcher/templateConfusion

@Johannes_B -- from a quick skim, looks like a good start. i've printed it out for weekend "bedtime reading", and will report.

@JosephWright seems that way

@barbarabeeton I made two minor additions: github.com/johannesbottcher/templateConfusion/commit/…

If expl3's :D macros are forbidden, then why must they look so happy?

@SeanAllred Oh, sorry. Merged. :-)

@PauloCereda Look who's lurking in the back ;-) youtube.com/…

@Johannes_B oooh

@SeanAllred <3

@SeanAllred :-)

@barbarabeeton @JosephWright Do you think i can ping Kaveh concerning the template discussion? His interests as TUG president as stated in Darmstadt are pretty much the same as mine concerning templates. I wasn't in Darmstadt, so maybe one who got to actually meet him would be better to ping. I guess he will be interested even in this early state of a draft.

@Johannes_B -- i think it would be fine to ping him, but i haven't got time before i leave for the evening, and won't be back in touch until tomorrow.

@Johannes_B My impression is that he might be more focused on industry topics (XML based workflow, conversions, interactions; and publisher cooperation) than looking at pure LaTeX template users at entry level, usually - which is not bad, I just mean there are possibly further people very interested in pushing at the entry level

@Johannes_B Btw. somebody said to me: why should an old template be outdated or bad at all - LaTeX is claiming to run old code still fine and the very same today.

@egreg: around?

Oh nevermind, found it. :)

@barbarabeeton Take your time :-)

@StefanKottwitz True, but the starters now can be the paper submitters tomorrow.

@StefanKottwitz True as well, backwards compatibility is one thing, but we have to keep in mind current developments.