TeX, LaTeX and Friends - 2015-07-09 (page 2 of 2)

Joseph Wright

8:00 PM

@SeanAllred Bruno has ideas

Sean Allred

@JosephWright Fair (though this is where I say 'best practice' would be to use an external tool)

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred To do what?

Sean Allred

@JosephWright Putting TeX through so much stress has never sit right with me. If I want to plot a bunch of data, I'll use something like gnuplot (or another external tool that plays nicely with pgf)

egreg

@JosephWright I was thinking about a fastprop data type using \csname instead of a single big control sequence. The user can choose between them: prop is better for certain tasks, fastprop when the lists are big, keeping into account that the latter has big impact on memory.

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred Gnuplot's not part of TL, makes horrible-looking plots, ...

@egreg We were thinking that should be an internal decision, actually: have a switch when things get too big

Sean Allred

8:01 PM

@JosephWright Yeah, but the same philosophy applies for my use-case. I understand that we can't rely on such things.

@JosephWright And in honesty I've never used gnuplot :)

@JosephWright You run the risk then of having an inordinate slowdown at an 'arbitrary to the user' threshold

@JosephWright @egreg's really is a better solution -- it happens all the time

Actually

Hm. Has anyone looked at a linked-list implementation?

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred Plan b was to allow a decision by the programmer at point of definition but keep interface the same

@SeanAllred Bruno :-)

Sean Allred

@JosephWright man after my own heart <3

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred He was keener on a generalised object type on the grounds that for the purposes we've got them for, prop and seq work well, so it might be better to have a general type that can deal with this sort of thing (i.e. when you create an object the programmer chooses the underlying format based on their needs)

Sean Allred

@JosephWright You saw my tex-obj repository on github, right?

It doesn't really work-around the prop-problem though (that's what it's based off of)

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred Haven't looked

@SeanAllred Bruno has lots of ideas but got bogged down in his day-job, nuptials, ...

Sean Allred

8:08 PM

@JosephWright I know that Bruno and I were talking about some sort of l3obj a year or so ago

@JosephWright Oh, lovely :/

@JosephWright Oh wait, that is lovely :) Thought of a different thing, there

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred For the team, there are some bigger priorities at the moment so I can't say what exactly will happen

Sean Allred

@JosephWright Naturally. If that topic-list for Darmstadt is any measure, you all have your hands full as-is

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred Indeed, particularly item (1)

@SeanAllred I will have a look

Sean Allred

@JosephWright Yeah, what does that mean anyway? 'jumping the chasm'?

How to push LaTeX3 adoption when it's ready?

What's the chasm?

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred Ah, well that one makes most sense if you are on the team list

I think this is OK in public:

how to jump the chasm?

meaning we have expl3 for package coding but any of the bigger ideas (galley, xor and similar but also more general ideas around templates, say) they only work if day one there is a wide support for it.

So is that possible to arrange? / how?
Is there any other way to introduce them?
If not, what then?

which leads to my message current starred about a simple plan :-)

Things like data manipulation will be needed longer-term (we have to match e.g. pgfplots) but first we have to solve the things that are not solved in LaTeX2e

The galley part actually does just-about work: it's the basis of my \parshape talk for TUG2015

Sean Allred

8:13 PM

What's 'galley'?

Joseph Wright

xor also works in a way, but it needs revision

texdoc l3galley and texdoc xgalley :-)

@SeanAllred Managing vertical lists, mainly the MVL

@DavidCarlisle can explain :-)

Right, speaking of LaTeX code, back to the LuaTeX stuff

@DavidCarlisle I'm wondering about the Lua code we've currently put in lualatexsupport. I suspect (looking around) that getting at attribute numbers at least is quite a 'core' thing, and I'm not that happy about abusing the latex table. Would you be OK if I moved all of that to the kernel side?

@DavidCarlisle Reasoning: in the Lua 'space' we can probably be a bit freer that in the TeX 'space'

Others: for context, see github.com/josephwright/ltluatex :-)

Sean Allred

Page 8 of texdoc xgalley has some serious situational irony :)

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred Quite possibly: the problem with the galley stuff, as noted by the chasm business, is that to use it we need everything else rewriting

@SeanAllred That's due to the documentation harness we have: it's all a hack

Sean Allred

@JosephWright Just in the LaTeX kernel or are you trying to push wider adoption? (obviously the latter is a goal, but not one that's blocking release)

@JosephWright 'documentation harness'?

I feel like I'm learning a whole new lexicon! (a LaTeXicon, if you will)

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred Macros we have for the documentation of templates, etc.

@SeanAllred I'm not sure what you mean: l3galley?

Sean Allred

8:20 PM

@JosephWright I meant this message (particulare needing everything else rewritten)

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred The usual 'big issue' for any major LaTeX developments: almost all packages/classes around today use LaTeX2e kernel internals, TeX primitives, etc. in a way that greatly restricts changes.

Sean Allred

@JosephWright Why not use a staggered adoption strategy?

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred Also, Frank's stated aim is that any new kernel must cover at least all of The LaTeX Companion

Sean Allred

I thought the point of the '3' in LaTeX3 was to break the things that need breaking.

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred Did you not notice expl3 :-)

@SeanAllred Yes, but the problem is that there are a lot of end-user documents that essentially should not break

@SeanAllred The whole archival stability thing

@SeanAllred People are still posting documents here starting \documentstyle, after all

Sean Allred

8:23 PM

@JosephWright Naturally -- but even TeX has made breaking changes in the past

@JosephWright Yeah, I was just thinking about that...

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred Not since 1990

@SeanAllred Like the agenda for the 'team meeting' says, this is the chasm we have to deal with

Sean Allred

@JosephWright re staggered adoption -- would it be ridiculous to have a command-line switch (translated to an obscurely-named command, naturally) that 'turned on' an L3 mode of sorts?

Choose to load the new kernel rather than the old one?

But I guess this just puts off the inevitable

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred As I know the detail, I could probably say which packages will and won't work with l3galley and probably can adapt say article to work with it, but most people can't

Ulrike Fischer

@clemens Well they must be processed in some order. So the second should be able to take the first into account. But you see the problem? There is no real understanding yet. Btw: \AddLayersToPageStyle{empty}{logo} is confusing. Imho \AddLayerToPageStyle{logo}{empty} would be more logical -- the order of arguments should follow the order in the command name.

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred It seems clear that latex must forever run LaTeX2e, so we get into either a new binary name or perhaps not bothering with a format per se but rather a first line \RequirePackage{latex3} or similar

Sean Allred

8:26 PM

@JosephWright a chasm indeed

@JosephWright That's a shame

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred The TeX distro people will not take a new format that would break 99% of user documents

@SeanAllred Remember most real documents have \makeatletter <some stuff including primitives> in them

Sean Allred

@JosephWright Not an opt-out change, but I can't imagine a reason to refuse an opt-in change

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred That is different, but would need e.g. a new binary name like I say

Sean Allred

@JosephWright Of course -- I'm not forgetting that documents that compile today should compile tomorrow :)

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred Since I joined the team I've been working hard to get some things finalised so we can tackle more of this: there are lots of ideas but we do have to make decisions!

Sean Allred

8:29 PM

"blech"

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred Compare expl3 in 2008 with today and you'll see what I mean

Sean Allred

@JosephWright <3 for all your efforts :)

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred Not just me, of course

Sean Allred

@JosephWright Of course

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred It's all @WillRobertson's fault that I'm on the team at all

Sean Allred

8:30 PM

@JosephWright Have you forgiven him yet?

Johannes_B

@UlrikeFischer That order stuff is a very good point? Are you reporting it to Markus?

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred :-)

Sean Allred

@JosephWright That is the hardest thing with larger F/OSS projects (i.e. larger user bases) -- analysis paralysis is a lot easier to fall into as a group.

@JosephWright ;)

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred Certainly

@SeanAllred I'm hoping that the chance for most of us to meet up will be helpful

Sean Allred

@JosephWright If it's any help, I've often found that just making the change is good for development. It necessarily breathes new life into the project.

Joseph Wright

8:33 PM

@SeanAllred I was hoping Morten Hoegholm might come, but it doesn't look likely (Frank, David, Will, Bruno and I will all be there)

Sean Allred

@JosephWright I wish I could make it if only to witness the conversation :)

People look at me funny when I talk to them about TeX.

6

I get excited.

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred The rest of the team are very used to me wanting to make changes :-)

@SeanAllred Asking to be starred :-)

Sean Allred

@JosephWright XD

@JosephWright Is anyone on the team in the software industry?

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred Well the formal programme will hopefully get recorded (Kaveh is going so it should happen), but there will be a lot of stuff done outside of that

@SeanAllred @DavidCarlisle is at NAG :-)

@SeanAllred Frank works in IT

clemens

@UlrikeFischer @Johannes_B »So the second should be able to take the first into account.« IMHO that's a conceptual design choice wether they should or shouldn't. I can see the use if a layer on top knows about the layers below but in my feeling different layers should not know about each other. Maybe one is supposed to use \GetLayerContents{<layer>} if another layer needs to know (but I haven't used it, yet, so I'm just guessing…)

Sean Allred

8:36 PM

@JosephWright That's not too bad then. Don't take this the wrong way, but a lot of folks who use LaTeX don't care about the new stuff -- they just want it to always work forever (cf the Papeeria tweet). I suppose that's part of the chasm problem.

There's little appreciation that projects have to move on.

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred Remember that maths is the core of TeX and LaTeX, and unlike other subjects they do reuse exactly the same sources (as @barbarabeeton points out): that makes a difference

@SeanAllred Oh, don't worry, I want a new LaTeX

Sean Allred

@JosephWright I know :)

@JosephWright I still feel like there's got to be a good way around this

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred I'm on the team because I think as a user we need something beyond LaTeX2e: I've no more desire to load a shed-load of packages than anyone else does

Sean Allred

@JosephWright It does grow to quite the bundle, doesn't it...

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred The problem is that we can support the official user syntax in a new version, but how many documents just use that

Sean Allred

8:39 PM

Only ever really noticed it when I did my thesis.

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred Yes, cf. ConTeXt

Sean Allred

@JosephWright That's true of course

David Carlisle

@JosephWright yes probably right

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle OK, expect checkins once I've done the washing up

David Carlisle

@SeanAllred you can't stagger introduction of l3galley, you introduce it and things break, so basically you can't introduce it to 2e, you just need to encourag epeopel to use a new l3.

Sean Allred

8:43 PM

@DavidCarlisle Of course -- I meant stagger the introduction of l3 (which was in retrospect an ill-conceived idea). have l3 be opt-in for a time, and then switch to opt-out. Completely missed the point of archivability in that thought, though.

It could be a coordinated effort on the editor level.

David Carlisle

@SeanAllred no I think we first need to write an l3 format then just introduce it as an alternative and offer it as a choice, once (if) you switch to l3galley really you can not allow any macros to add anything to a vertical list and you can't really do that in a compatible way. You can probably make many documents work, but many many classes and packages would need a rewrite, better not to mix the two I suspect.

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Agreed

Sean Allred

@DavidCarlisle We're talking about the same approach

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Also how many people have the knowledge to do the mix? With defined interfaces and proper support people will be able to write new material for the new galley

Ulrike Fischer

@Johannes_B I don't think so. I don't really have the time now to start a long discussion. Perhaps latter. But I hope you see why I'm a bit wary towards scrlayer-scrpage. What e.g. means \ForEachLayerOfPageStyle? Why should I want to add something to every layer of a pagestyle?

Joseph Wright

8:49 PM

@DavidCarlisle We need xor like I keep saying

David Carlisle

@SeanAllred I can't see how that relates to opt in opt out, it's like saying that context is an opt in or out from latex2e, it's not either it's just different

Sean Allred

@JosephWright I'm not sure trying to mix the two approaches is a good plan

David Carlisle

@JosephWright stop delaying things with interesting side projects like re-implementing luatexbase then:-)

Sean Allred

@DavidCarlisle I'm thinking of tex more as part of a pipeline

@DavidCarlisle different invocation/binary-name

David Carlisle

@JosephWright did you try my test doc? :-)

Sean Allred

8:52 PM

i.e. I as a user have to choose to use L3 instead of 2e -- I have to actively make a change in my workflow to switch to an entirely different thingy

David Carlisle

@SeanAllred well yes at the user level it would be like choosing context or amstex rather than latex2e, just another choice latex3 (or l3 or wibble, whatever it ends up being called)

Sean Allred

@DavidCarlisle if this is a democracy, I vote wibble

but yes

David Carlisle

@SeanAllred personally I'd drop the latex part of the name, but there's a reason I'm in the development not marketing division at work, marketing/promotion reasons may yet mean latex3 is best name, but personally I think "latex" as a joke name is past its time.

Johannes_B

@UlrikeFischer As Markus pointed out, everything is still in beta and he didn't make up his mind himself. We will see what comes.

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Remember this will all carry forward :-)

@DavidCarlisle Indeed: agree on all points

Sean Allred

8:58 PM

@DavidCarlisle I feel like we're going to end up like (x)dvipdfm(x) here

David Carlisle

@SeanAllred well at least if you search for that you don't get in danger of losing your job for inappropriate misuse of company bandwidth.

2

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred Assuming we keep the \documentclass ... \begin{document} ... \end{document} structure I think it's fair to say the name will retain 'latex'

Sean Allred

@JosephWright I don't remember if it was you who said it, but I agree: if that basic structure doesn't carry forward, I don't think the project will receive widespread adoption

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred Agree

Sean Allred

At the end of the day, LaTeX2e has proven 'good enough' for most uses. In order for there to be a new generation of tools (editors, etc.) that work with a new format, there has to be a serious and unhandled flaw in the old format.

Joseph Wright

9:02 PM

@SeanAllred Have to convince some others of this

@SeanAllred Yes, we know: that's part of the chasm

1010011010

@DavidCarlisle Do you care if the example is minimal?

David Carlisle

@SeanAllred that's what people said about 2.09 too.

Sean Allred

@JosephWright big, giant, scary chasm. monsters at the bottom. skeletons of failed projects.

@DavidCarlisle Did 2e really change 2.09 that much?

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle I point you to the question asked some time ago

Sean Allred

From an editor-support perspective, \documentstyle -> \documentclass is absolutely trivial

Joseph Wright

9:03 PM

@SeanAllred \documentstyle[graphics]{article}

@SeanAllred Editor support is not really a big issue

@SeanAllred NFSS

Sean Allred

@JosephWright \textbf, etc.?

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred Yup

@SeanAllred {\rm\bf\it What do I look like?}

Sean Allred

@JosephWright But didn't that fix a fundamental and apparent flaw in the old system?

David Carlisle

@SeanAllred many many people (and journals) at the time said they were going to stick with 2.09 as it was stable, whereas 2e was visibly changing especially in the first few releases. 2.09 didn't have \documentclass or \usepackage or \textbf or any standard color or graphics inclusion...

Sean Allred

@JosephWright italics, naturally

Stefan Kottwitz

9:04 PM

{\rm\bf\it} and what do I look like? ;-)

Sean Allred

@StefanKottwitz someone who doesn't understand how any of this works :)

Beatrice: Offline Over-Sharer

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Joseph Wright

@StefanKottwitz :-)

@SeanAllred I'd like to think that if we can get xor, galley and some type of 'style sheet' working then we will have a good 'sales pitch'

Stefan Kottwitz

@SeanAllred Nobody knows what's happening if the context before is missing, so "total" switches are defining, just a funny thought

Sean Allred

@StefanKottwitz Sounds like one of those 'wise sayings'

David Carlisle

@SeanAllred I always liked Timothy's comment on springer's reasoning for not using 2e in this thread:

groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.text.tex/tdUru-Gtwm0

Sean Allred

9:07 PM

@DavidCarlisle Oh my

Haven't tried to stifle a laugh like that in a long time :)

Stefan Kottwitz

@SeanAllred just old simple commands and a rant

David Carlisle

@SeanAllred that was just one of hundreds of threads like that at the time. It was not at all clear that 2e would "win" over 2.09 even though no one at all was maintaining 2.09.

Sean Allred

@DavidCarlisle In the end, the new does overtake the old. Good technologies are ones that can adopt the new into the old (e.g. emacs)

(except for the few fundamental flaws of emacs, e.g. multithreading)

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Ooh gopher

David Carlisle

@JosephWright gopher was good:-)

Stefan Kottwitz

9:11 PM

@DavidCarlisle is there a hyperref color option for gopher?

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Just caught the tail-end of its existence

@SeanAllred Unless the old stuff is better :-)

@SeanAllred I use some software at work originally written on punch cards and released in 1976 :-)

David Carlisle

@StefanKottwitz probably not, you could put in a feature request:-)

Sean Allred

@JosephWright Ah, but then I have a loophole for such a situation -- the chronologically-new thing was a backwards-step, so it might as well be chronologically-old ;)

David Carlisle

@JosephWright hmm that sounds like may day job

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle 'Tis written in Fortran

Sean Allred

9:13 PM

@JosephWright I use emacs religiously

David Carlisle

@JosephWright naturally:-)

Sean Allred

@JosephWright and my day job's dbms was written in-house in 1979 :)

Ulrike Fischer

@Johannes_B And what should a good template use to setup more special pagestyles? fancyhdr, scrpage2 or scrlayer-scrpage?

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright FMS

Sean Allred

it is a lovable, mangy old beast

Joseph Wright

9:14 PM

@PauloCereda ?

@DavidCarlisle Yes, like I say was originally on punch cards

Paulo Cereda

Fortran Monitor System

Fortran Monitor System (FMS) est un système d'exploitation reposant sur le traitement par lots. Pour l'utiliser, il fallait écrire sur papier un programme (ou job) en FORTRAN ou en assembleur, puis le coder sur des cartes perforées. Un opérateur se chargeait de le donner à la machine, et le résultat sortait sur une imprimante. Un job consistait en la séquence suivante : une carte $JOB indiquant : le temps maximum, en minutes, à accorder au job ; le compte à débiter ; le nom du programmeur ; une carte $FORTRAN pour charger le compilateur FORTRAN ; le programme FORTRAN ; une carte $LOAD pour charger...

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda Ah: probably

Sean Allred

@PauloCereda what a strange language

Johannes_B

@UlrikeFischer Honestly, i have no idea. Markus declared scrpage2 officially deprecated. With the standard classes, i don't care. With KOMA, scrlayer-scrpage and with memoir, well the memoir stuff. I cannot agree with @clemens as with declaring a standard that would rely on KOMA.

David Carlisle

@SeanAllred french? yes I agree:-)

Sean Allred

9:17 PM

@DavidCarlisle (╭☞´ิ∀´ิ)╭☞

Joseph Wright

9:30 PM

@clemens I see you are spreading Markus's love of templates :-)

Paulo Cereda

Dead Language - Futurama

►

@SeanAllred ^^ <3

Sean Allred

@PauloCereda <3 There's a Star Trek: The Next Generation clip along the same lines :) -- 'An ancient, long-dead Earth language'

Paulo Cereda

@SeanAllred ooh indeed. :)

clemens

@Johannes_B @UlrikeFischer not an easy question. And before that comes the question: which class (classes) should templates use? In the end it is maybe not even very important which choice is made but to explain why a certain choice was made

@JosephWright he watched the first 10 youtube LaTeX tutorials (which @Johannes_B found recently) and reviewed them. I just stumbled upon the reviews and found them worth sharing :)

Sean Allred

@clemens youtube videos?

I still need to start recording for TeXnically Inclined :)

clemens

9:39 PM

@SeanAllred in German: youtube.com/channel/UCC-3dzj6dfbWwGzQzhkUS5A

Ulrike Fischer

9:56 PM

@clemens Hm. "Sorry I choosed the wrong class but at least I can explain why"? No, I don't think that is more important to have a good excuse than to choose the correct class. But I think it is important to avoid to easy arguments like "modern" against "outdated". New things can have faults too.

clemens

@UlrikeFischer No: if there is a right and a wrong choice than the wrong choice obviously is wrong and shouldn't be made. But sometimes choices aren't right or wrong but just different. Who could argue choosing memoir over scrbook is right or wrong? Then one needs to make a decision based on other reasons which can be explained (and make it easier for others to follow the reasoning or choose differently). BTW: I didn't say to give an excuse but to explain why. That's a difference IMHO

Christian Hupfer

Palindrome at last @DavidCarlisle :-P

@clemens: Some question for your LaTeX corner :-P

0

Q: wrap around task environment don't working

I am trying to create an environment wrapping a task environment (from the tasks package). To build the new environment I am using the xparse package. \documentclass{article} \usepackage{xparse} \usepackage{tasks} \NewTasks[% counter-format=tsk[a]), label-width=\tasklabelwidth, item-indent=0pt...

clemens

10:14 PM

@ChristianHupfer I'm pretty sure this is a duplicate. IIRC this has come up more than once before

Christian Hupfer

@clemens I'll leave up to you to prove to be a dupe or to provide an answer

Weird document alert:

0

Q: Continuous page numbering in a thesis document

I am using a thesis template but by problem is that I need continuous arabic numbering starting at title page, all the way through the thesis. But it resets at chapter 1.. This is what I have for the main part that calls the chapters \documentclass[a4paper,11pt,times,authoryear,oneside,print,Pag...

page-numbering texworks

clemens

@ChristianHupfer theme of the day: weird document = template :)

Christian Hupfer

@clemens \newglossaryentry{name=template, description={weird document}} ... \printglossaries ;-)

cfr

10:43 PM

@ChristianHupfer 'Mellon'? Bear in mind that I have no idea what the words in the PNG I linked to mean.

Christian Hupfer

@cfr I don't speak Elvish ... But speak friend and the gate opens (something like this) ..

@cfr: Mellon = friend ...

Sean Allred

10:55 PM

@ChristianHupfer holy cow… have you just not clicked up there in a while?

Christian Hupfer

@SeanAllred Nope... it was hard, since the many voices in my head force me to do so... but I ~~was~~ am strong ;-)

Sean Allred

@ChristianHupfer We're proud of you.

Christian Hupfer

@SeanAllred lol... so we are too ;-)

cfr

????

Christian Hupfer

@cfr ????

Sean Allred

11:04 PM

@SeanAllred ????

Christian Hupfer

@SeanAllred Unclear to yourself?

Sean Allred

@ChristianHupfer often so

cfr

@ChristianHupfer I guess they mean this? Good grief! Lot of trouble to go to for a number.... I was just confused by all this talk of you not clicking on things up in the sky somewhere. (I have a small screen on my laptop. Conversation quickly passes me by.)

Christian Hupfer

@cfr Well, it's just about the palindrome number ... not about the amount of rep change...

cfr

@ChristianHupfer Thank you for the translation. I'm glad it doesn't say anything rude because I used it in a handout. (It is from the documentation for the package for this stuff so I hazarded a guess that it couldn't be too obnoxious. If it was, it would be just my luck to get a fluent Elvish speaker in the class.

Christian Hupfer

11:11 PM

@cfr You'll have always one or two fluent Elvish speaker in any class, as well as someone speaking Klingon ... Quaplah!

@cfr: Or duckish ;-)

cfr

@ChristianHupfer Exactly. Just a number. That is, I hold that all numbers are equally special. Hence, it makes no sense to favour some rather than others. Although perhaps it is better, on reflection, if particular people care for particular numbers so long as every number is a particular favourite of somebody.

Hmmm... Given that I have been known to mark student work with the aid of a German-English dictionary, I wonder if we have any for Klingon or Elvish. Although I suspect we've lost the German one by now, actually, so perhaps it is all the same....

Christian Hupfer

@cfr: Germans operate Google Translate -- it's not a computer program... just Germans entering the translations ;-)

cfr

@ChristianHupfer I think Klingons are probably operating the Welsh arm of the operation, though.

Christian Hupfer

@cfr Very likely. The languages are quite similar. I hope only the languages or do Welsh people have those impressive foreheads as well? ;-)

cfr

@ChristianHupfer No, no. Not at all. They're just hats. We aren't born that way - and we only invented them to scare the English.

@ChristianHupfer Hwyadeg? Though the ducklings speak in nothing but Cwaceg these days.

Christian Hupfer

11:26 PM

@cfr I'll ask @JosephWright and @DavidCarlisle whether they are scared by Welsh people wearing hats...

@PauloCereda: By the way... Do you wear a Duck taming hat? ;-)

cfr

:22679277

Christian Hupfer

@cfr: Reminds me somehow on the hats being worn (correct form?) on the imaginations of the Gunpowder plot and Guy Fawkes, but the soldiers are from Napoleon Bonaparte era, I assume

cfr

Oh!!!!!!!!!!! TeX Live Manager just auto-installed comicneue ????

@ChristianHupfer Between 1839 and 1843.

Christian Hupfer

The Doors - The End (Original Long Version) (HQ)

►

@cfr Ah, ok. ... and is it a woman with some mask or a man in women's dressing? And why are there shackles?

Paulo Cereda

11:42 PM

@ChristianHupfer :)

Christian Hupfer

11:53 PM

@PauloCereda: It's so weird and sad. I ten days many users from TeX.SX will meet just about 250 km from here and I have no chance to attend the TUG meeting.

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$TeX - LaTeX$ TeX, LaTeX and Friends