TeX, LaTeX and Friends

Adam Liter

3:43 AM

Does anyone here use bibtool or know it well enough to help me with something, by chance?

Faheem Mitha

pdflatex doesn't seem to be bothered by utf8 characters in the tex file. Does it support utf8 now?

egreg

6:39 AM

@FaheemMitha Not natively: the support is via macros by \usepackage[utf8]{inputenc}`

yo'

7:00 AM

@egreg Hi, are you in the tug15-attendees mailing list?

egreg

7:20 AM

@yo' Not sure

Nasser

7:47 AM

fyi, finally Scientific word version 6 has been released! 10 years in the making. mackichan.com/index.html?products/sw.html~mainFrame

egreg

@Nasser Now we have something worse than SWP 5!

Nasser

@egreg I am going to try it and find out. This was a record of longest software release between versions ! almost 10 years it took.

egreg

@Nasser You're not considering LaTeX2 to LaTeX3. ;-)

Nasser

I actually like version 5.5, but they stopped maintaining it and it fell behind in support. They should have spend the time on making updates to version 5.5 (add more packages, etc...).

The idea of writing to GUI and export to latex, is a good idea, it is just that the implementation was not perfect. It is more natural to write math on the screen as it appears on paper. The problem is how to do this, and keep the same flexability as writing direct latex.

yo'

8:08 AM

@egreg Well, I tried to send a mail there, but it seems not to have arrived :-/

Nasser

8:18 AM

@egreg I found 2 large documents generated by version 6, they are the new manuals, they are free. I looked at them, they look nice actually, lots of math in them. This gives an idea of version 6. mackichan.com/index.html?products/books/books.html~mainFrame

David Carlisle

@cfr perhaps you'd recognise that number better in hex:10FFFF :-)

@FaheemMitha no

@yo' there's a web form to register

yo'

9:46 AM

@DavidCarlisle I received a mail that I was registered automatically

David Carlisle

@yo' see you there then:-)

yo'

@DavidCarlisle no, I mean: When I registered for the conference, I was also auto-added to the tug15-attandees list, at least that's what the message implies

Faheem Mitha

@egreg In that case, shouldn't it freak out or something?

yo'

@FaheemMitha No: all UTF-8 bytes are set to catcode ignore by default

Faheem Mitha

@yo' Oh, I see. Hmm.

That could create some unexpected behavior.

yo'

9:56 AM

@FaheemMitha it does, like missing letters with [utf8]{inputenc} omitted :-)

Faheem Mitha

@yo' So, I guess I need to either include \usepackage[utf8]{inputenc} or not use utf8.

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha if you don't use inputenc then you can only use ascii

@yo' no, they're not:-)

Faheem Mitha

10:25 AM

@DavidCarlisle I see. And what happens to uft8 characters then?

egreg

@FaheemMitha Nothing if the font encoding is OT1, garbage characters if it's T1.

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha by "utf8 characters" I assume you mean byte sequences encoding characters above 127 in UTF-8 encoding. Such sequences will all be of length greater than one, in which every byte is above 127. As all such bytes are catcode 12 they will be interpreted as separate characters, the first character typically being an accented A (for characters in eh latin1 range) So if the font encoding is T1 you get lots of spurious characters with lots of accented A....

... If the font encoding is the default OT1 then cmr has no characters above 127 so they make no printed output but you get at least two "missing character" warnings in the log file for each character, one for each byte in its UTF8 encoding.

@FaheemMitha which is what @egreg just said, but as usual he gave a short snappy answer, while I gave the full details at excessive length.

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle wow, I feel that should be the answer to some question. But I suppose it must be on the site somewhere.

Or I could ask it if it's not already there.

David Carlisle

10:54 AM

@FaheemMitha searching for "accented A" has several hits eg this one which shows what happens with T1 fonts

3

A: special characters not showing (mathexam+babel)

If your posted example is saved as iso-8859-1 (latin1) it runs without error and produces the expected result. If it is saved as UTF-8 it produces Spurious accented A are a sure sign that the multi-byte UTF-8 characters are being interpreted as latin-1. There are tools to convert back to lat...

yo'

11:06 AM

@DavidCarlisle me being wrong, as always ... :D

egreg

11:41 AM

@yo' If you load \usepackage[ascii]{inputenc}, then characters with the high bit set become invalid, not ignored.

yo'

@egreg ok, got it. I forgot that it's OT1's missing characters and not ignore catcode that is the significant thing here

@egreg btw, I'm just making sure that you plan to come to Prague from Darmstadt. I'd be happy to be your host (I've got a spare bedroom), but I'd need it confirmed within days so that I can organize my time.

egreg

@yo' That would be wonderful

yo'

@egreg ok, take it as confirmed :) How long do you plan to stay?

David Carlisle

@yo' you should have checked that first, you may have him squatting in your flat for years:-)

yo'

@DavidCarlisle oh no! I'd have to get a duck to force him out! :D

egreg

11:47 AM

@yo' Well, a couple of days. Say arrival on late July 23 (from Darmstadt to Prague there are just 500km, which is a day's journey) and leaving on 26 or so.

yo'

@egreg ok, that works pretty well. I'll travel during Thursday as well, not too early in the morning.

This sounds like a strange and interesting phenomenon:

0

Q: Slow compilation without sudo

With any *.tex file, even with almost empty template, tex, latex, pdflatex commands takes ages to compile it. strace shows excessive amount of stat calls to all the files in my home directory, which is the cause of slow behaviour. If I run a compilation with sudo command all fine and quick as it ...

egreg

@yo' :) My journey would be through Würzburg, Bamberg, Bayreuth and Karlovy Vary

@yo' Much better than by plane.

yo'

@egreg mine's going to be all-highways I think :-) But I may choose to go through Heidelberg on one of the ways

Johannes_B

12:11 PM

A new blog post by @clemens about the development of chemmacros mychemistry.eu/2015/06/modular-chemmacros

6

michal.h21

12:27 PM

quick question for tabular masters (@DavidCarlisle ?). are parameters of p columns (like {p{5cm}|l} somewhere stored and accessible? in some dimen register or macro?

egreg

@michal.h21 No, tabular simply passes them to \halign. To the contrary, longtable keeps record.

baxx

12:46 PM

I was thinking about trying to use some of the formatting from Modern cv link in a document of article class. Is this possible? Basically the bit's with the date, I have a table of info that's pretty rank and I want to just split it out nicely. The way that the CV has the date offset like it is would work for it though (i think). Not sure if that made any sense

David Carlisle

@michal.h21 \@preamble has the (expanded) form

Johannes_B

@baxx I am not sure what you want to achieve, but you can copy the needed parts from modercv to your preamble. Maybe you need the \makeatletter/\makeatother combo.

baxx

@Johannes_B i wanted to try having a section of similar style within article document... I tried to copy the parts that had cventry in them from the style sheet to the preamble, but they didn't work link. I'll have a look for the make letter bits

Johannes_B

@baxx You will also neeed to load package ifthen to get this to work.

baxx

@Johannes_B oh right ill try that , usepackage{ifthen} I'm assuming

Johannes_B

12:52 PM

@baxx Yes, in the preamble. With a compilable example, helping would be easier.

baxx

@Johannes_B yes sos, I'll try this and if not I'll get a MWE together and make a proper question :)

David Carlisle

@baxx that code on its own won't work as it uses \cvitem perhaps you want to replace that by \item ?

baxx

@DavidCarlisle still no dice, I'm going to write a question up :)

David Carlisle

@baxx although a 7-argument command is a horrible interface, why would you want to copy that? It makes the source very hard to read hard to tell which argument is which.

michal.h21

@egreg in fact I want it for longtable in this case:

baxx

12:55 PM

well it was just what was there already @DavidCarlisle

michal.h21

tex.stackexchange.com/q/249179/2891§;

David Carlisle

@michal.h21 actually same answer there \@preamble is what you need

Johannes_B

@DavidCarlisle @baxx He is right here, the interface of moderncv is a pain.

michal.h21

@DavidCarlisle thanks, I'll try that

baxx

@Johannes_B Is there a way to have that rough format? I thought that i had chosen the path of least resistance, possibly not though!

I'm not fussed about it being exactly like modern cv, just thought that might be an easy way to present this info. It's a table of somebodies qualifications, dates that they were on etc. But the tables too big, it looks off.

Johannes_B

1:01 PM

@baxx I don't even know the output of moderncv. What do you need, what is your current data format, the wanted output?

baxx

@Johannes_B see education here : latextemplates.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/cv_71.png

David Carlisle

@michal.h21 look at the output from:

\documentclass[9pt,oneside,a4paper,english,notitlepage]{book}
\usepackage{longtable}
\usepackage{array}

\makeatletter
\begin{document}
\begin{longtable}{|l|p{10cm}|m{5cm}} \\\hline
{\def\the@toks{\the\toks}\let\@startpbox\relax\let\@sharp\relax\protected@edef\tmp{\@preamble}\show\tmp}
First & Second text cell with width of 10 cm& Third cell with width of 5 cm\\ \hline
\end{longtable}
\end{document}

@michal.h21 note the form of \@preamble is quite different if array is not loaded.

Johannes_B

@baxx A date (that you need) and some other stuff, formatted differently (hence multiple arguments). All in all, it is a tabular.

barbara beeton

@yo' -- i've just checked the list (using password that came in the message saying that i was registered). only admins have access to the list of members, so i couldn't check that, but i did check the archive, and it's empty. i've reported it.

baxx

@Johannes_B by tabular do you mean a table, or can tabular mean different things?

David Carlisle

1:05 PM

@baxx the environment tabular (not the environment table)

Johannes_B

@baxx Confusing stuff, tabular is tabular material, arranged in some kind of grid, a table. On the other hand table is th LaTeX term for a floating environment.

baxx

right - because it was a bit much for a table info wise (it would have to be shrunk etc). But a tabular might work, I'm not sure! I'll have a google for it

what would i search for? everything from tabular seems to just be tables

David Carlisle

@baxx table environment has no effect on the typesetting of its content so I don't understand that comment. It just allows the enviornment to be moved to help page breaking.

baxx

@DavidCarlisle Its too much for a table though, unless that's just a formatting term rather than meaning an actual table

OK, i'll have a look. I don't think I'm explaining properly :(

table isn't what i want

this is what i mean when i say table cita.disability.uiuc.edu/courses/2003-02-REHAB711NC/lec15/…

David Carlisle

@baxx yes as Johannes just said any kind of rectangular grid, with or without the rules, that's implemented by the tabular environment.

baxx

1:13 PM

@DavidCarlisle and the education section of latextemplates.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/cv_71.png would be classed as a rectangular grid?

David Carlisle

@baxx could be, although most such two column layouts are better set as a list.

baxx

maybe i want a list, is a list part of tabular?

David Carlisle

@baxx no

baxx

i definitely don't want a table like I posted

basically i just want it so it's similar to the modern cv thing, no idea what that is. tabular, list, table, unicorn

David Carlisle

@baxx given the \cvitem I would assume it is a list as \item is the standard latex list item separator as in enumerate or \itemize or description

baxx

1:19 PM

yeah but it doesn't have all the * things.

David Carlisle

@baxx no idea what you mean and not prepared to guess, sorry.... ask a question with a proper example on site:-)

baxx

will do, itemize has little * things at the start of each item. i'll write a question now

Johannes_B

@DavidCarlisle Agreed, always forget about lists. Though moderncv really uses a tabular for those items.

@baxx You can configure this, itemize uses symbols, enumerate an enumeration, description a (mostly) textual label. But there is no need to use any label.

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle I think a general question would be better.

Johannes_B

tex.stackexchange.com/tags/thesis/info

baxx

1:35 PM

@Johannes_B just been having a play and think that a table without any grid lines, 2 cells and paragraphs in the second cell might work. It seems like using a table the wrong way, but perhaps there's not much other choice so I'll see :)

Johannes_B

@barbarabeeton ShareLaTeX, LaTeXtemplates.com and maybe others provide a Thesis.cls and i don't know if all of those have a centralized repository or if there are multiple copies. Should somebody poke them to rename their files and decrease the confusion, for both helpers and help seekers? Just checked, both templates require the user to change his/her personal data within the cls file. Any use of common sense should prevent that.

@baxx Table or rather tabular material just means that the contents is laid down as a grid. What the Word-user knows as a table is a big pain, as it looks like the content is sitting in jail. A good table just needs a few horizontal lines to make the beginning and end of the head a bit more obvious. Vertical lines should be used very very rarely.

baxx

@Johannes_B :) i don't think i even need vertical for this. I've been trying to get a paragraph in the second cell with {p{3cm} p{5cm}} but I'm having a bit of a mare. Just writing a question about it ;)

Johannes_B

@baxx Did you know, that the author in an article is set in a tabular?

baxx

@Johannes_B no i don't think i did :)

@Johannes_B here's the question : tex.stackexchange.com/questions/249213/…

barbara beeton

1:56 PM

@Johannes_B -- aarrggghhhhh! confusion indeed! i'm not sure who might be effective poking those who perpetrate the single name thesis.cls, but i'll think on it. and i totally agree that requiring changes within a class file is a misdeed that deserves, at the very least, tar and feathers. i've been thinking that an article in tugboat about "what is a template?" is maybe overdue. there are several articles that mention or expound on templates, but not from that perspective.

Johannes_B

@baxx Out of interest, are those real words or made up gibberish.

baxx

@Johannes_B ha, I hope some language expert has a chin stroke over them... just gibberish ;)

Johannes_B

@barbarabeeton It seems that sharelatex just somehow copied the template from latextemplates, which by now is somehow incorporated with latex-community.org. I could poke the maintainer of the site which is a moderator on LC.

@barbarabeeton Do you know if the conference in Darmstadt is videotaped? I am interested in seeing what @yo' came up with for his university. :-)

barbara beeton

@Johannes_B -- regarding a "centralized repository", i have doubts, but no actual knowledge. to be investigated. (now, who can i "volunteer"?) re thesis classes in general, peter flynn covered the topic quite thoroughly in a 2012 tugboat article, and one would have thought that might be sufficient, but it appears not. i'll ask him if he has any later thoughts that might be shares.

@Johannes_B -- well, kaveh will be in darmstadt, and as far as i know, plans to record. streaming is apparently unlikely, however.

Paul Gessler

@Johannes_B river-valley.zeeba.tv

Johannes_B

2:06 PM

@barbarabeeton The thing is, you have to actually read the article to know what to look for/after. I pinged a few template providers on github and asked for renaming. One even deleted the whole rep in fear that some bad code gets distributed.

@PaulGessler I haven't even watched the videos from last TUG :-(

Paul Gessler

@Johannes_B I've watched some but not all

barbara beeton

@Johannes_B -- i haven't reread peter's article recently, so can't remember details clearly. however, one thing i do remember is that the most contentious part of a thesis class is almost always the title page; every institution has its own idea of what that should look like and what it should contain, although most (or at least many) elements seem to be common to all.

Johannes_B

@barbarabeeton Another term of confusion, thesis. In germany we gladly say bachelor thesis or master thesis.

barbara beeton

2:22 PM

@Johannes_B -- and "thesis" is also often used as a generic term for "dissertation". (a far cry from the theses posted on the church door in wittenberg.)

Joseph Wright

@barbarabeeton Yes: I had to change in my one 'report' to 'thesis' as my examiners didn't like the more accurate term :-)

Paulo Cereda

ducksertation

egreg

@barbarabeeton Removed my comment about spam; but a message in Dutch that, according to Google Translate, was just describing the features of a piece of software looked really suspicious.

barbara beeton

@egreg -- entirely understandable. thanks. the \cite was subtle, but right on target.

Arthur Reutenauer

2:50 PM

@Johannes_B @baxx “Cirthserr” could be Welsh :-)

Johannes_B

@ArthurReutenauer Thought the same. Maybe @cfr can read it. Maybe it is a hidden message :-)

Arthur Reutenauer

“Gadf” is clearly from typing randomly on the keyboard though ;-)

egreg

@ArthurReutenauer Maybe @PauloCereda's cat Fubá is involved.

Paulo Cereda

@egreg He sure is. :)

egreg

@PauloCereda Sooner or later he'll rewrite arara.

Paulo Cereda

2:59 PM

@egreg in emacs Lisp. :)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda a grown up language, finally.

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle :)

egreg

@PauloCereda Maybe he's able to exit from vim, which requires an ever changing random sequence of keys.

@PauloCereda Or Vim's inventor had a cat and was inspired by how he/she walked on the keyboard.

yo'

3:14 PM

@barbarabeeton same here.

@Johannes_B github.com/tohecz/ctuthesis/blob/master/ctutest.pdf but graphic design is not mine

Paulo Cereda

3:27 PM

@egreg :)

Johannes_B

@yo' I'll have a look at it. But right now my machine is driving me crazy. Even writing down text here in the chat box is lagging.

yo'

@Johannes_B I'll more concentrate on the "API" and related programming layer choices

David Carlisle

is this serious???

0

Q: LATEX product - black stain

I work in a company producing latex-made products and we are getting black stains on our toys which we don't know how to prevent them from appearing nor to clean them out. Any idea? many thanks

rubber

cfr

@Johannes_B @ArthurReutenauer Not Welsh. Even without a dictionary. 'r' is one of the very few letters which are doubled on occasion, but not at the end of a word. Sêr and seren are words, if those are any good to you?

yo'

@DavidCarlisle I think it's a joke, but I VTC'd, -1'd and flag'd

David Carlisle

3:36 PM

@yo' we should close it OT anyway but wasn't sure what comment to leave

yo'

@DavidCarlisle I wouldn't leave any

David Carlisle

@yo' that's what I decided

Johannes_B

@DavidCarlisle @yo' i left one :-)

@cfr Strange language :-)

yo'

@Johannes_B I finally did so, too

David Carlisle

@Johannes_B at least they put spaces between words.

cfr

3:38 PM

@Johannes_B Why? I mean, why especially?

At least it is (very nearly) phonetic.

Johannes_B

@yo' The other comment, i once wanted to show a friend a post on LC, since i was at his computer, my auto-completion wasn't available. There are other latex-communities around :-)

@cfr Karl Pilkington said you are going mental with the L. :-D

cfr

@Johannes_B Is it our fault if others are ignorant? At least we are thrifty. We hardly ever waste a letter, although occasionally we don't use one where we should. ('pobl' being the standard example.)

2

@DavidCarlisle ctan.org/pkg/maths-symbols needs a licence...? Pretty please?

@Johannes_B We never double 'l's, at least.

Johannes_B

@cfr What does pobl mean?

yo'

@cfr It's a deprecated document, so why?

cfr

@Johannes_B 'People'. 'Pobl y cwm' is a popular soap opera.

David Carlisle

3:46 PM

@cfr not seen that for a while:-) LPPL do? isn't it obsoleted by the comprehensive thingy these days?

cfr

@yo' Because my version is no longer quite so deprecated!

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle CDL please. :)

yo'

@cfr you mean symbols-a4 right?

cfr

@DavidCarlisle LPPL would be great. If I give out copies of the comprehensive thingy to people who are just starting to use LaTeX, they are going to run screaming from the lab and never return. The graduate college will then get sued, I will get fired and Wales will be plunged further into the typographical abyss of all things Word.

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda dmv.org/apply-cdl.php

cfr

3:49 PM

@yo' That's not the name of it on CTAN, is it?

Paulo Cereda

@Johannes_B Volkswagen must be Poblwagon in Welsh. :) We hwyadens know a lot of cars. :)

@DavidCarlisle github.com/supertunaman/cdl :)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda might have guessed there would be a bird involved

yo'

@cfr ftp.cvut.cz/tex-archive/info/symbols/comprehensive

cfr

@PauloCereda @Johannes_B wagenbobl?

David Carlisle

@cfr I thought that I had everything ctan claimed I'd done at github.com/davidcarlisle/dpctex but that one seems to have escaped

cfr

3:52 PM

@yo' Oh, sorry. I thought you meant David's list of maths symbols.

@DavidCarlisle You can always get a copy from CTAN?

Johannes_B

@cfr @PauloCereda I like that word.

David Carlisle

@cfr yes sure that's where I got most of that stuff from:-) Just seem to have missed that one.

Paulo Cereda

@cfr oooooh I like it!

I'd drive a wagenbobl. :)

yo'

@DavidCarlisle :-)

David Carlisle

@cfr is it still good advice though? the available math fonts have changed rather since 1994.

cfr

3:55 PM

@PauloCereda Mae hwyaden yn gyrru'r wagenbobl!

yo'

@cfr remember that all @David had ever created has been outdated since the Middle Ages.

David Carlisle

@yo' too true

Paulo Cereda

@cfr ooooh

Arthur Reutenauer

@cfr “serr” did look suspicious indeed.

Let’s make it cirthsêr :-)

Paulo Cereda

@ArthurReutenauer You are jealous because I have a wagenbobl and you don't. :P

yo'

3:57 PM

@PauloCereda čtvrthrst

Arthur Reutenauer

Cirth is the name Tolkien gave the runes he invented, by the way (I knew I had seen it somewhere).

Paulo Cereda

@yo' o.O oh my

Arthur Reutenauer

@PauloCereda I’m sure if I knew what it was, I would be jealous :-)

cfr

@DavidCarlisle I couldn't find anything better. I gave it out last time but I've been through it more carefully this time. In particular, I think I've now got all of the packages right. Mostly, it is a list of symbol names and those have not changed much, have they? The packages which provide them have changed, but have the symbol names? They all seemed to work.

yo'

@PauloCereda Don't worry, it's the longest such

Arthur Reutenauer

3:58 PM

@yo' But that’s cheating, there is a vowel sound before both ‘r’, it’s just not written.

yo'

@ArthurReutenauer Even though I disagree, that's still good for čtvrt :)

Arthur Reutenauer

It’s like all those Welsh words with ‘w’ in it :-)

cfr

@PauloCereda You don't need 'a wagenbobl' - just 'wagenbobl'. No indefinite article.

@ArthurReutenauer 'w' is a vowel.

Arthur Reutenauer

@cfr I know, that’s my point.

yo'

@ArthurReutenauer r and l are not wovels, though

Paulo Cereda

4:01 PM

@cfr ooh

@egreg: we are talking about wagenbobls! :)

cfr

@ArthurReutenauer ?? Weren't you comparing it with a word without vowels?

Arthur Reutenauer

@cfr It became clear when we were driving in Wales and saw signs reading “twnnel” :-)

David Carlisle

@cfr yes it's probably correct in as far as it goes. But most people seem to like the comprehensive list these days, anyway I'll get it back from ctan and re-submit although that's a bit complicated as ctan has it in the same directory as a file of Robin's I'm tempted to add LPPL to that too, I wonder if I can reach him. Anyway I shall put a quotable message in the following line.

yo'

@ArthurReutenauer en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_phonology#Vowels

David Carlisle

@cfr you, or anyone else, is free to modify and/or distribute the file symbols.tex under the terms of the LPPL licence (any version of your choosing).

cfr

4:02 PM

@ArthurReutenauer Yes. I can see that. 'y' is a vowel, too. We like vowels. 'n' is the only other letter (other than 'r') which is subject to doubling.

Arthur Reutenauer

@cfr Without written vowels, but I was stating that in Czech ‘r’ may stand for [ər] - but I may be wrong on second thought.

cfr

@DavidCarlisle Thank you! I can send you my attempt at updating it if you want? The original did not compile.

yo'

@ArthurReutenauer the problem is that [ə] is questionable itself, in all languages

Arthur Reutenauer

@yo' Sorry, I may be wrong, I thought ‘r’ between two consonants stood for [ər] in Czech, but maybe it’s syllabic.

@yo' What do you mean? It’s very clearly a vowel sound, although it’s not usually written with a specific sign (or even at all).

@yo' It comes up all over the place in English in unstressed syllables (not in all of them, of course, but in many many).

yo'

@ArthurReutenauer if by syllabic, you mean "forms a syllable", then that's correct: čtvrthrst and scvrnkls are two syllables: čtvrt.hrst and scvrn.kls

Arthur Reutenauer

4:06 PM

@yo' No, I mean that the ‘r’ itself forms a syllable. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllabic_consonant

yo'

@ArthurReutenauer the point is that you can hardly distinguish [p] from [pə]

cfr

@ArthurReutenauer So nothing at all like 'w', then. 'w' doesn't stand for a vowel sound or hide a vowel. It is a vowel. If you pronounce 'twnnel' you don't need to read anything into it in order to say it correctly.

Arthur Reutenauer

@yo' Maybe not consciously, but you can if you train yourself. And phoneticians definitely can.

yo'

@ArthurReutenauer you can't pronounce [p] without saying [ə] after it. Somehow.

Arthur Reutenauer

@cfr We’re talking at cross-purposes. ‘w’ is a consonant in English, which is how most people see it in the course of a conversation in English. Likewise in Czech (and Slovak, and Slovenian, and Serbian-Bosnian-Croatian), ‘r’ - a consonant in English - stands for something different than just [r].

@yo' Yes, but that doesn’t mean that [ə] doesn’t exist. It is a vowel, it’s just not usually written with its own sign.

yo'

4:11 PM

@ArthurReutenauer I know it's complicated.

Arthur Reutenauer

@yo' I don’t have my Comrie handy (routledge.com/books/details/9780415280785) to check whether the Czech r is syllabic or just stands for two sounds in this context, I can check tonight.

yo'

@ArthurReutenauer according to wiki, it's syllabic: vlk [vl̩k] (wolf), krk [kr̩k] (neck), osm [osm̩] (eight)

David Carlisle

@cfr github.com/davidcarlisle/dpctex/commit/…

Arthur Reutenauer

@yo' Yes, I was wrong about Czech. But I’m pretty sure it’s not syllabic in the South Slavonic languages.

So it is actually closer to Welsh than we originally expected @cfr :-D

yo'

@ArthurReutenauer that's possible, they're quite difficult.

Arthur Reutenauer

4:18 PM

@yo' About osm (that the Wikipedia article mentions), I read somewhere that it’s often pronounced [osəm] by native Czech speakers themselves. But the source of information didn’t sound very reliable.

yo'

@ArthurReutenauer it oscillates between [osm], [osəm] and [osum] :)

Arthur Reutenauer

@yo' That’s right, I did hear [sedum] and [osum] now I think about it :-)

yo'

@ArthurReutenauer children even use to write it that way :D

Arthur Reutenauer

In Russian a [v] sound made its apparition at the beginning of the word for “eight”, God only knows why: восем.

@yo' That’s funny :-)

yo'

@ArthurReutenauer ah that's the last pronounciation: [vosum]

Arthur Reutenauer

4:24 PM

@yo' That’s interesting, thanks.

egreg

@ArthurReutenauer Curiously enough, in the dialect of Friuli the word for eight is “vot”.

In Italian it's otto, from Latin “octo”.

Arthur Reutenauer

@egreg Do you mean Friulan, or a regional variant of Italian spoken in Friul?

@egreg It’s always amazing how close Italian can be from Latin, at least orthographical. In French most words have undergone pretty radical transformations :-)

egreg

@ArthurReutenauer Yes.

cfr

45 mins ago, by cfr

@Johannes_B Is it our fault if others are ignorant? At least we are thrifty. We hardly ever waste a letter, although occasionally we don't use one where we should. ('pobl' being the standard example.)

egreg

@ArthurReutenauer Uno due tre quattro cinque sei sette otto nove, which were unus duo tres quattuor quinque sex septem octo novem.

cfr

4:29 PM

@DavidCarlisle Great! Thank you...

egreg

The only real deviation about numbers is that Latin had “septemdecim”, while Italian has “diciassette” (with inversion).

Arthur Reutenauer

@egreg Oh, that’s right. I never learnt Italian properly, and somehow assumed that all the numbers between 11 and 19 were formed according to “undici, dodici, etc.” I was really surprised when I realised it wasn’t the case.

egreg

@ArthurReutenauer Well, classical Latin had duodeviginti and undeviginti for eighteen and nineteen, where Italian has “diciotto” and “diciannove”.

David Carlisle

@cfr resubmitted to ctan

egreg

@ArthurReutenauer We have undici dodici tredici quattordici quindici sedici. Then, for strange reasons, we invert the order. Tens are always in front for numbers above 20.

cfr

4:34 PM

@DavidCarlisle Thanks very much. My version is not as good. But I don't think in ways which matter. (I'm more dictatorial and I use geometry.)

cfr

4:54 PM

@PauloCereda

3

Paulo Cereda

@cfr oooooooh

@Johannes_B: ^^

Johannes_B

@cfr wagenbobl

Wheels On The Bus | Part 5 | Nursery Rhymes | HD Version from LittleBabyBum

►

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle: did you notice my duck is wearing a GB hat? :)

Now I have a new duck. :)

barbara beeton

@yo' -- oops! trying to link to this just crashed firefox ... i'll try again later, if i can.

David Carlisle

5:09 PM

@PauloCereda I feel I'm going to regret asking but why that costume?

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle Random duck, basically. :)

cfr

5:20 PM

@Johannes_B Olwynion wagenbobl y hwyaden...?

@yo' What is wagenbobl in Czech?

[Or what would it be? Since 'wagenbobl' is a made-up word...]

@PauloCereda Is arara becoming nightingale?

Johannes_B

@cfr Si :-) google translated that for me :-)

yo'

@cfr we don't have "w" in the language

Paulo Cereda

@cfr oh no, nightingale is just my code sandbox. The official tool is arara. :)

yo'

@barbarabeeton you can try these two standard PDF links: kmlinux.fjfi.cvut.cz/~hejdato1/temp/ctuman.pdf kmlinux.fjfi.cvut.cz/~hejdato1/temp/ctutest.pdf

Arthur Reutenauer

5:47 PM

@DavidCarlisle If you have any interest in driving up to London this week I can get you tickets for La Traviata for £15 per person, for tomorrow or Thursday.

(Anywhere in the auditorium)

egreg

@ArthurReutenauer Libiam nei lieti calici!

@ArthurReutenauer The verses, for one who understands the language, are awful.

1010011010

How strictly do I have to pay attention to the glyph slots for T1 in texdoc encguide page 20?

I can put the right glyphs in the right slots exactly without a problem if I have to. :-P That would disable some fancy t ligatures which I'd rather not drop, though, for all these chracacters with diacritics, which I intend not to use.. :-(

egreg

@1010011010 If you want T1, follow T1

2

David Carlisle

@ArthurReutenauer thanks for the offer, but probably not (would be a late night for the boy:-)

@1010011010 you can use any encoding that you want but don't call it T1 if it isn't T1

4

1010011010

6:04 PM

So.... create a new def file for fontenc it is...

yo'

@1010011010 you can call it T11010 :D

1010011010

@yo' It's 5 characters right? Including the letter. :-)

David Carlisle

@1010011010 doesn't really matter, the original aim was to keep the total filename to 8 characters to fit on a MSDOS or ISO CD format disk but that is not enforced anywhere.

1010011010

@yo' So do you also have a YO1 encoding?

David Carlisle

6:20 PM

@1010011010 nah, sensible people use standard encodings:-)

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle LOL

Johannes_B

@clemens Paranoid question: Did you change the layout of your blog at least twice today, or am i slowly going insane?

clemens

@Johannes_B maybe even more often: I was looking for a new theme and the preview never quite shows me how it will look. I could have activated maintanence mode, but...

Johannes_B

@clemens So, not completely insane? :-)

clemens

@Johannes_B :) As a precaution I won't answer that. Surely a trick question, right? :p

@Johannes_B BTW I'll be answering your comment soon

Johannes_B

6:30 PM

@clemens Oh no, my cover has been exposed.

@clemens No hurry, it was the first jibberish coming to my mind. I should have taken a few minutes to think about it.

cfr

@PauloCereda Somebody the other day claimed nightingale would be arara's successor.... False rumours!

Paulo Cereda

@cfr Was it me? I can't remember. :) Nightingale's rules are written in Groovy. :)

cfr

@DavidCarlisle Rules exist to be broken ;). @1010011010 But not if you have to ask....

David Carlisle

6:47 PM

@cfr sure, but no point in breaking that one.

Christian Hupfer

7:28 PM

@PauloCereda: Nice hat ;-)

@PauloCereda: The name badge I got from the meeting organization committee was written in Comic Sans -- I cried and wept, sobbed...

clemens

@ChristianHupfer But Comic Sans is supposed to make you smile! :p

Christian Hupfer

@clemens @clemens: I don't want to see my name written by a child's hand ;-) The whole day was an attack to good typography, watching/reading documents

clemens

7:43 PM

@ChristianHupfer I'm sure you lead the responsible people here: comicsanscriminal.com

egreg

@ChristianHupfer This would have been better

clemens

@egreg :)

egreg

@ChristianHupfer Or this one

2

This one ^^^^ is the original for “The Good, the Bad and the Ugly”

Christian Hupfer

@egreg: Fits to Black Forest -- it's made of wooden planks ;-)

baxx

8:22 PM

what's the default LaTeX layout? If I use \centering for a section, how do I reset it to how it was?

i don't want ragged right or left

David Carlisle

8:35 PM

@baxx article class defines section to be:

\newcommand\section{\@startsection {section}{1}{\z@}%
                                   {-3.5ex \@plus -1ex \@minus -.2ex}%
                                   {2.3ex \@plus.2ex}%
                                   {\normalfont\Large\bfseries}}

baxx

@DavidCarlisle oh right cool, thanks :)

Johannes_B

9:47 PM

@clemens Was the possibility to markup stuff there when i first commented on your blog post? Did i really overlook it, or did you add the feature?

@clemens btw, the following throws a warning from scrlfile. It was discussed here a few weeks/months back. Maybe you want to have a look at it.

\documentclass{memoir}
\usepackage{chemformula}
\begin{document}
\end{document}

Paulo Cereda

OSX El Capitan. Gimme. A. Break.

clemens

@Johannes_B I added it this evening

@Johannes_B in chat or on the main site?

Paulo Cereda

10:18 PM

@clemens, @Johannes: you got mail (so does Heiko too). :)

Paul Gessler

11:13 PM

Johannes_B

@clemens here in chat.

@PauloCereda Mail, haven't got any :-(

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