@PauloCereda is that from an owl cafe???

@aeroNotAuto I... don't know!

Oh my.

@DavidCarlisle What about, say, vvv

Good morning. Can someone help me here: tex.stackexchange.com/a/232697 I am almost done, but I do not know how to address the parula colors by value. I would need something like [color=\m] but that does not work. Thank you

@SeanAllred latex3 questions in general go back that far (although perhaps not on c.t.t as it wasn't public for a long while) but key questions do (if not l3keys), so the number of questions you'll find about new features like .code:n= whatever fall into the experimental error that doesn't really invalidate the main point of my comment. The details of a question about a feature added in version n+1 couldn't be exactly the same as as a question about an older version or an older package, but....

I guess I should do something like here tex.stackexchange.com/a/197560 but I am not able to get it working.

So how should I now test the stuff from the DropBox? I've made an extra texmf tree with them and made sure this tree load before the main dist tree.

@DavidCarlisle Ahh yes of course, forgot I probably should build the format as well.

@daleif I just do a local install (unzip in localtexmf) then fmtutil-sys --all

@JosephWright yes but that just gives you the new one doesn't it?

I am too stoopid to do any of these procedures. :) So my best approach is to wait until the format reaches mainstream. :)

@JosephWright bit dangerous when one is also working on books

@DavidCarlisle Yes, that's the point surely?

@daleif But the point is to test, otherwise we get nowhere!

@daleif All you need to do to revert is delete your .fmt files and local installation and rebuild the formats, anyway

If you are testing you might like to change \mem@noetexfalse on line 672 to \ifx\extrafloats\@undefined\mem@noetexfalse\else\mem@noetextrue\fi` so it doesn't load etex.sty in new formats

@JosephWright I find it useful to be able to compare 2014 and 2015 on the same document just by using a different command, if I only have pdflatex command that's harder

@DavidCarlisle I'd probably do that by fiddling with the PATH to drop back to 2013 :-)

@DavidCarlisle But again, if we are serious about testing the point is to force ourselves to use the new code

@DavidCarlisle For example, the way I test beamer is that the dev version is the one i use for my own work, so if I break stuff I soon know :-)

@JosephWright yes but when stuff fails you need to know if it failed anyway or if it has just broke, otherwise my answers here would be pretty confusing if I answered based on code that only worked or only didn't work in 2015/

@JosephWright speaking of things that just broke, any thoughts on \newfam?

@DavidCarlisle Will get back on that a bit later: need too look at the detail

@JosephWright a happier life can be had by not looking at the detail:-)

@DavidCarlisle I just made a copy of my 2014 installation and made a script so I can easily activate this installation for this particular terminal. After that I'm doing something similar to @JosephWright. Next I need to test that I got it all right. Think I forgot the .ini files.

Best ways to test that one got the build right?

@daleif Check the date printed by the format at the start of a run

It has resolved it self... tex.stackexchange.com/a/232697 Actually got beautiful. New experience to me as TikZ-DAU. Thanks nevertheless if someone took a look.

@aeroNotAuto thanks for the flowers. :-) glad I helped you.

@LaRiFaRi tulip season's coming up, should have plenty more flowers soon!

@aeroNotAuto I hope so.

@LaRiFaRi is that color scale named parula simply because the colors were stolen off of the bird?

@aeroNotAuto I have no idea, to be honest

@aeroNotAuto I did not know that bird (just know araras) but you seem to be right.

@LaRiFaRi lol is that why you have a comment with arara in it? i had no idea what that was

@aeroNotAuto haha, no, that comment is actually a command. See the package github.com/cereda/arara from the guy who would most probably call his colormap 'duck' defined by yellow, orange, blue only... (@PauloCereda)

@aeroNotAuto don't tell @Paulo you dunno araras!

fun fact: when looking up the bird type arara, you get a hit for the american rock art research association. how does one get a job there??

@LaRiFaRi ohhh that makes more sense. it's still early here.

@yo' OH NO!

@yo' now look what you've done. way to blow my cover!

45 EUR for a train from Luxembourg to Liège? Are they f. kidding me?!

Possible bug when using the test format: placeins and its \FloatBarrier no longer work. (memoir contains a copy under a different name). Did I build something wrong?

@daleif MWE?

Compiles fine under TL20014

@daleif curious, what error does your log give?

! Undefined control sequence.
\FloatBarrier ...tlist \@deferlist \@dbldeferlist
                                                  }\ifx \@tempa \@empty \els...
l.5 \FloatBarrier

@aeroNotAuto ^^^

@aeroNotAuto What @JosephWright just posted. Looks like it is confirmed then :-( Has a macro been removed from the core?

@daleif Just checking things now

@aeroNotAuto We are talking about the upcoming LaTeX2e kernel update: not generally public yet

@aeroNotAuto Ohh, you probably need to add some text. The MWE does not output any PDF file.

@JosephWright ahh, sorry for butting in

%%% From File: ltoutput.dtx
\IncludeInRelease{2015/01/01}{\@dbldeferlist}%
                             {float order in 2-column}%
\global\let\@dbldeferlist\@undefined
\EndIncludeInRelease

Important question: Do TUG meetings offer complimentary ice creams?

@daleif I know why this is missing: the algorithm is basically wrong in older releases. @DavidCarlisle will know more!

@JosephWright Why do I expect a not my fault answer from David? :)

@daleif Needs

  \edef\@tempa{%
    \@fb@botlist\@deferlist
    \ifx\@dbldeferlist\@undefined\else\@dbldeferlist\fi}%

or similar

Or we simply leave \@dbldeferlist defined but unused (safer? @DavidCarlisle)

@daleif \@dbldeferlist is only being used to see if it's empty, so leaving it around is probably acceptable as a fix

\RequirePackage[2015/01/01]{latexrelease}
\documentclass[a4paper]{article}
\usepackage{placeins}
\makeatletter
\def\@dbldeferlist{}
\makeatother
\begin{document}
\FloatBarrier
\end{document}

@JosephWright I can see that memoir also refers to \@dbldeferlist in a redefinition of \@doclearpage, don't know if that ends up doing shuff. The addition seems to be from 2004.

\newcommand{\mem@doclearpage}{%
  \@mem@testifnofoot
  \if@mem@nofoot
    \setbox\@tempboxa\vsplit\@cclv to\z@ \unvbox\@tempboxa
    \setbox\@tempboxa\box\@cclv
    \xdef\@deferlist{\@toplist\@botlist\@deferlist}%
    \global\let\@toplist\@empty
    \global\let\@botlist\@empty
    \global\@colroom\@colht
    \ifx \@currlist\@empty
    \else
      \@latexerr{Float(s) lost}\@ehb
      \global\let\@currlist\@empty
    \fi
    \@makefcolumn\@deferlist
    \@whilesw\if@fcolmade \fi{\@opcol\@makefcolumn\@deferlist}%

\gdef\@doclearpage{\mem@doclearpage}

@JosephWright Should that be added to placeins, I tried adding it to the similar code in memoir without much success

@daleif As I said, we might be fine leaving \@dbldeferlist defined

@JosephWright Interesting your \@tempa fixes \FloatBarrier in placeins. But not in memoir, hmm, what else is memoir messing with. Will look closer

@daleif I'll look after work too

Ahh, that was of of course because I did not read closely. Memoir of course use its own \mem@fb@botlist ;-) Then it works

@daleif So just leaving it defined works?

@JosephWright If by works you mean compiles without error, yes. Otherwise I'll just add the test

is it kosher to invite a user to chat, given the intention of asking for their expertise with a question that i posted? i know this is supposed to be a place where users look for questions they want to answer, not the other way around.

@JosephWright just ran a grep for dbldeferlist against .sty in TL14. It returns 10 files. Same test on cls gave two classes

@daleif i just had to look twice at your avatar to see if dave grohl just joined the chat

@JosephWright, the \mem@doclearpage needs fixing as well. I'm just testing if all of my book projects compiles.

@aeroNotAuto It actually used to match a lot closer.

@aeroNotAuto There was a post on FB the other day where someone pointed out that Dave Grohl looks a lot like the drummer from Nirvana ;-)

@daleif hahaha what a coincidence! somebody should talk to courtney love about that

@daleif I'll look later on unless @DavidCarlisle beats me to it

@daleif @JosephWright tricky, so with fixltx2e then placeins/memoir would be "successively" patching code that then was not used, whereas now they fail to patch. While not getting errors is a good thing it isn't totally clear that not getting an errror is an improvement. Frank's call I think. But either way I suppose I need to mail Donald again (I just got him to update cite:-)

@DavidCarlisle What was up with cite?

@JosephWright not related to 2015 it was a question here that it messed up the page headers in ieee class, turned out that latex is defaulting french spacing depending on sfcode of . being 1000 at begin document but cite makes it 10001 so it can do its punctuation checks, so the test failed always. iee defaults to french spacing... funny thing was the sfcode of . test was added in 1997 (by me) to fix latex/2404 that was reported by Donald:-)

@DavidCarlisle :-)

@DavidCarlisle I'm currently planning some experiments that might take me to TRIUMF, so if I get there I'll have to track him down :-)

@JosephWright of all the changes I fear the 2col float order one is touching the code that most packages have patched, you might have hoped that fixltx2e doing that for several releases would have flushed out any issues but seems not.

@DavidCarlisle But fixltx2e doesn't seem to remove \@dbldeferlist

@JosephWright no it just adds stuff, but code patching the old 2 col float stuff silently patched dead code so wasn't actually working, so now you get an error. If we can get the packages updated before tl 2015 so they don't error that might be a good thing, although leaving stuff there just so packages can patch it is another alternative

@JosephWright how easy would it be for the core to have an extra set of tests that ran with whatever's in the locally installed tex tree (like the doc) so we could put in tests with memoir and placeins and amsthm etc and know earlier if stuff breaks?

@DavidCarlisle Easy enough: could be done using the 'live' TeX installation or using our normal 'isolated' approach

@DavidCarlisle We seem to be clearing these things up at a reasonable rate :-)

@DavidCarlisle Just need to write some tests

@DavidCarlisle Cf. that pull request ;-)

@JosephWright true, just wondering...

Is anyone aware of a biglist-style question for some math that can be used as a kind of benchmark for font and package settings?

Along the lines of those MathML test pages

with some math that actually makes sense but at the same time uses as many features, symbols and corner cases as possible

I thought I had seen something like that somewhere around here but I can't find it anymore.

@JosephWright do you know anything about biblatex? i'm looking at a question where somebody called you out by name...

@DavidCarlisle, @JosephWright I don't mind changing the patching/overwriting code in memoir as along as it will also work with old LaTeX.

I don't really know what \@dbldeferlist and \@deferlist does. I can see that \@doclearpage used \@dbldeferlist in places, and now use \@deferlist instead. I'm just wondering what happens when one just set \@dbldeferlist to {}

@JosephWright i'm looking at this answer where you commented that the issue is a bug. this came up again and we're once again wondering if this is an issue with v2.9a...any idea?

@aeroNotAuto A bit, yes :-)

@aeroNotAuto I'll check the source

@JosephWright awesome, thanks. the new mwe i put together for the op is in my answer here

@daleif will suggest changes later. the deferlist is where floats go that are not placed on the current page, latex traditionally had two lists one for single col and one for 2 col floats, trouble was that meant there was no synchronisation so a figure* making figure 1 could float past single column figure 2, so end up printing in a strange order. Th "new" code (which started in fixfloats.sty last century then my fix2col.sty then fixltx2e and now the format) puts all onto a single list

@daleif so floats are kept on correct order (and enddblfloat has to put some magic into the floatbox so the output routine can tell whether it is a double or single float)

@DavidCarlisle thanks for the explanation. I'm guessing memoir is messing a bit with those. As far I can see dbldeferlist in memoir was mentioned in the code for \FloatBlock (almost verbatim copy from placeins) and then (4 times) in \mem@doclearpage, an overwrite of the kernel \@doclearpage

@daleif probably I'll work first on a suggested update to placeins then porting that to memoir should be easy enough. will be this evening or weekend though

@JosephWright oh just got this comment:

Pun intended:

@DavidCarlisle :-)

@daleif: ooh now your avatar is updated for me. Cool!

I am in the waiting room of the doctor's office. My glasses are very weak. :(

Hi guys. Just a rapid question. I've 2 documents using exactly the same template (and the same file). One has a greater font size in the table of content than the other, while there is no instruction at all to change that font size in the document themselves. Do you know what could be causing this issue?

I removed all files resulting from the compilation to make sure, to get a clean compilation process, but this didn't change anything :-/

@wget no idea, sorry

@wget the most likely explanation is that one of the facts in your description is false;-)

@DavidCarlisle Hum ok. I'm gonna check by taking only section and chapter titles. Gonna write a grep command for that. Let's debug ;-)

@wget -- are you looking at these on screen or on paper. if paper, always suspect the printing routine -- adobe reader has a nasty habit of not choosing "100%" and instead "fits to paper".

@barbarabeeton I'm using TeXstudio which is using xelatex to compile everything. I checked in Okular.

I really don't understand.

@wget add \showoutput then you can see what fonts tex is using in the tables of contents (so you can see if it is being scaled at the pdf stage) should allow you to check tex is using same font in both documents

Thanks for the hint.

@wget I use \showoutput a lot :-)

@JosephWright it is not a bug, i'm just dumb today

Ok succeeded. It was my title command I redefined but didn't specified the optional argument. LaTeX was complaining in the document which had only titles (the one I made with the grep command.) That's weird, I got no complain in my full document :-/

@wget ` \textbf{\Huge #1\[0.4cm]}` will bite you if your title is ever longer than a line, it will wrap to the next line with huge characters on a normal baseline. You should always have \par in scope for a font size change.

@wget that has three mandatory arguments so I'm not sure what you mean by "not specified" do you mean \title{something}{}{} or \title{something} ?

@DavidCarlisle Actually I want to make the second and last argument optional. I tried several trick in the code to avoid printing Author, with \ifx#3\undefined %nothing \else \fi, but this does'n't work

(avoid printhing author and the second argument) the condition is the same but have no clue how to build it.

And if you could provide the correction, I don't understand by having "have \par in scope"

*what you meant by

@wget if they are optional the syntax would be \title{something}[zzz][yyy] with square brackets if loading xparse it's trivial otherwise you need to define \title as a command that takes one mandatory argument and then calls \xtitle which looks for one optional argument which calls \xxtitle` which looks for teh next. two optional arguments is a pain for the user: you can not omit the first without omitting the last, why not use keyval \title[author=me, otherthing=whatever]{main title}

@wget never do {\huge #1} always do {\huge #1\par} (for any size change)

Yep. I already read about (your package :P) xkeyval, but have been unable to use it. I had always something that went wrong. If you could make me a working implementation, you would be my saviour ;-)

@wget xkeyval is the opposition:-)

Oh sorry, actually a fork.

I transformed \textbf{\Huge #1\[0.4cm]} into \textbf{\Huge #1\[0.4cm]\par} but this isn't compiling :-/

@wget extension rather than fork (it loads keyval: the real opposition is @JosephWright with l3keys:-)

@wget {\Huge\textbf{#1}\par}\vspace{.4cm}

@wget whenever you find yourself using \\ outside of an alignment like tabular you should ask yourself if you really ought to be doing that (answer is almost always no)

@wget vvvvv

\documentclass{article}

\usepackage{keyval}

\makeatletter

\def\@author{}
\def\@whatever{}
\define@key{title}{author}{\def\@author{\bigskip{\large author: #1}\par}}
\define@key{title}{whatever}{\def\@whatever{\bigskip#1\par}}

\renewcommand\title[2][]{{%
\setkeys{title}{#1}%
{\huge\textbf{#2}\par}%
\@author
\@whatever}}

\begin{document}

\title{this}

\bigskip\hrule\bigskip

\title[author=me]{that}

\bigskip\hrule\bigskip


\title[author=me,whatever=zzz]{zzzzzzz}

\bigskip\hrule\bigskip


\title[whatever=8888]{hmmmm}

@DavidCarlisle Ok I understand the principle now, I'm even gonna put the mandatory argument zzzzzzz from your title command in order to be able to use it as a key value

thanks a lot!

@DavidCarlisle why are you putting 2 brackets here? \renewcommand\title[2][]{{%

I thought the command was \renewcommand{\title}[2][]{%

@wget Forms a group

@wget The idea is that the key settings stay local

@wget the outer bracket is the syntax for newcommand the inner one is a group otherwise the definition of \@author would leak out and be the default in later uses

@DavidCarlisle Ok, but didn't you forget the \makeatother at the end?

*haven't you forgotten

@wget I didn't forget, I just didn't bother:-)

@wget hopefully your real code is in some class file so doesn't need \make... at all.

Yep my real code in in a cls file. I didn't know I didn't need to use \make... at all...

home time ... offline for a bit

@DavidCarlisle I assume it's better to replace \emph{Author:} #3 by {\emph{Author:} #3\par}, if I understood your previous advice correctly?

or even {\emph{Author: #3}\par}

@NicolaTalbot Hi Nicola, would glossaries be an appropriate tool for making a dictionary? I thought I'd ask you directly before digging in to the package, since I've not used it myself.

Wow, 12 upvotes for this. I don't get our voting system sometimes.

@Johannes_B Double the votes if it had been Cervantikz.

@AlanMunn I mean, the anecdote by gonzalo is nice, but imho the question is a lack of effort by the OP. A two minute search would have led to the answer.

@Johannes_B Just think of (some of) the votes as "I too was too lazy to look that up."

@AlanMunn I used googles translate feature for one of my answers, cause i don't speak korean.

It was enjoy you meal tex.stackexchange.com/questions/231681/…

@DavidCarlisle Btw I would like to know why in your implementation, you're defining "variables" with % \def\@author{}. I assume this @ variant is to restrict the variable to the internals of my class file?

@AlanMunn LOL

@wget yes it's just the traditional thing to do, really. you want it to be initialised to empty, but if you use a macro without a @ then any \newcommand\zzzz in a document could change the default (or error, depending on order) that is teh whole reason for the @ convention, it restricts those names to package and class files, except for the back door \makeatletter which gives access to package code within the document.

@wget only matters if there is a size change as line breaking is a paragraph feature so lines are separated by the baselineskip in force at the end of the paragraph font changes are just local in scope so they only affect the letters in eh scope of the command.

@JosephWright At some point I will get back to my tikz-backgammon. Would it make any sense to rewrite it in LaTeX3? Or given that it's so heavily TikZ based, there would be no advantage?

@daleif we've added \gdef\@dbldeferlist{} back to format so placeins works unchanged now, hopefully that'll be good for memoir too.

@AlanMunn Ratio of 'real' programming to TikZ?

@JosephWright Hmm. Hard to tell exactly, but I guess 50%.

@JosephWright tikz over l3 instead of tikz over pgf?

@JosephWright The programming part is keeping track of the state of the board, and parsing the game play. That's not TikZ at all.

@AlanMunn We haven't yet addressed arrays properly so if you need that ...

@JosephWright Damn. :) Yes, that would be very useful, since they were implemented by hand in the current version.

@AlanMunn Bruno has recently popped back up: I'll see if he'll tackle this one

@JosephWright That would be great. Knowing Bruno, he'll have something fantastic worked out in a few days. :)

First etoolbox bug report :-)

@AlanMunn Probably: I'll get on to him (unless @DavidCarlisle wants to do it)

Anyone come across madoko.net before?

@DavidCarlisle I think Petra at CTAN will kill me if I do another upload today :-)

@JosephWright a new bit or an old bit?

@DavidCarlisle Old bit: spaces introduced if \patchcmd is used in hmode

@DavidCarlisle \scantokens :-(

@JosephWright \scantokens could have been simpler:-(

@JosephWright Now I've got to think of a plausible reason for having 200 math alphabets in one formula, submit the paper to the AMS and persuade @barbarabeeton to use xetex in production...

@DavidCarlisle Yes, it could work properly (see \scantextokens in LuaTeX).

@DavidCarlisle :-)

@DavidCarlisle -- regardless of what people may think, i don't really have a say in this. there's such a thing as "upper management", you know. one of the few things that does generally go smoothly here is the production of (printed) books and journals, and that's at least partly because the policies have been pretty conservative with respect to changes. (the last radical change -- to farm out one journal to an outside service didn't even survive the whole one-year contract.)

@JosephWright I don't think one can safely pass macros with a *-variant under \protected@edef if they have no mandatory argument. With an (apparent) argument one could define the macro to look for the argument and test if it is * with \pdfstrcmp.

@DavidCarlisle -- the really "worst" case i can think of in this respect was an author who was absolutely adamant about using five difference script "p"s to mean different things; three different commercial fonts were needed to satisfy the requirement. and the worst part about it? a lot of readers can't tell the difference between some of them. so much for clarity in exposition. what was it that peter flynn said about spreading peanut butter over warm toast?

@barbarabeeton I once found a rather long text in Greek where every word started with π; the contents was quite vulgar, as one Greek acquaintance of mine reported. ;-)

@barbarabeeton Let me guess: Statistics paper?

@barbarabeeton Maybe we can send it to the author fond of p's.

@egreg Yes

@barbarabeeton it wasn't a thesis circa 1986 was it?

@egreg Tomorrow will be Pi day. <3

Actually, Saturday.

:)

@PauloCereda Did you see preining.info/blog/2015/03/end-of-gitorious-move-to-github?

@PauloCereda Specifically the wider point (about.gitlab.com/2015/03/03/gitlab-acquires-gitorious)

@JosephWright I stumbled upon a link to it a few weeks/months ago while researching Markdown variants. Have you tried it?

@barbarabeeton not p but A :-) (@JosephWright) tex.stackexchange.com/a/232620/1090

@PaulGessler Just looked today, will investigate further

@JosephWright Yes. :( It saddens me a lot, I used to like Gitorious. I was even considering in moving arara to it, but I decided not to.

@PaulGessler Came up via a bug report for etoolbox (the first one I've had!)

@barbarabeeton That reminds me of this: johndcook.com/blog/2014/03/04/nomenclatural-abomination

@JosephWright People talk a lot about licensing, but most of them don't have no idea of what these licenses mean. :)

@PauloCereda Indded

@PauloCereda I note note about.gitlab.com they feel the need for 'Better than GitHub', which says to me they have an issue

@PaulGessler Did you test it?

@JosephWright Indeed.

@Canageek -- nope. finite groups. "Particularly in connection with the Steenrod algebra we make heavy use of various script fonts ..." the book even has a short chapter on "typography", from which that quote is taken. production was a nightmare. copyright 2002. i won't identify it further, to protect the sufferers.

@JosephWright barely, just a Hello World! and some basic math to try it out. Haven't tried to break it yet. :-)

@barbarabeeton Fair, and interesting.

@barbarabeeton ah the steenrod algebra, a large part of my past life....

@DavidCarlisle -- whimper ...

OK I need a plan: if I manage to go to TUG2015, I need a topic for a keynote.

@PauloCereda me too. :-) (But I definitely won't be a keynote... LOL)

@PaulGessler we could come up with a metakeynote about how to come up with keynotes.

@barbarabeeton you reveal enough to identify the source, I know both the authors personally:-)

@PauloCereda the presentation could be a quine. :-)

@PaulGessler ooh

@DavidCarlisle -- i guess i'm not surprised. but don't tell them what i think of their choices. please.

@DavidCarlisle commence the name picking

@barbarabeeton as I said, past life (pre TeX actually)

Would it be so boring if I talk about ABNT + BibLaTeX + unit testing?

@PauloCereda No, sounds interesting

@PauloCereda would it include ducks?

@JosephWright Thanks, I'll consider it. :)

@PauloCereda BTW, thoughts on github.com/latex3/svn-mirror/issues/206 welcome (I'm going to raise with the team)

@DavidCarlisle One in each slide. :)

@PauloCereda that's OK then

@JosephWright Yes, mail later on. :)

@DavidCarlisle Yay! :)

Yay @norbert is here!

Morning morning, wow all of you are genki, different time zones ;-)

Everyone going to TUG2015?

@norbert -- ah, yes. for you, it's already friday the 13th. (the second one this year!)

Yeah, good day for a long trip and a long talk ...

@norbert Plan to

BTW, when is talk proposal deadline?

@norbert tug.org/tug2015/cfp.html

@norbert 1st of May

@norbert What will you talk about?

@JosephWright not sure if I make it, need to find some funds first.

@norbert Ah, yes, money

@JosephWright currently rewriting fmtutil, or another talk would be "10 years TeX Live in Debian"

@norbert I'll try. :) From Brazil to Germany. :)

@PauloCereda I already had to cancel 4 flights without reimbursement, so I need to find some business trip way to do it.

@norbert If I'm not in Japan, I guess I'll be at TUG 2015

@norbert Cool

@StefanKottwitz Also cool

@JosephWright Building a ship's network in Nagasaki this year ;-) but don't have concrete time plans yet

@JosephWright which of the two - but anyway, would give two talks

@norbert Both sound good

@StefanKottwitz Nagasaki is cool, was there for New Year

Thoughts on etoolbox and csquotes: texdev.net/2015/03/12/…

@norbert Oh I want to meet you in person. :)

@StefanKottwitz You could forget about wireless and use very long ethernet cables. :P

Or fiber. :)

@PauloCereda ohh, thanks, but I'm just a boring mathematician ;-)

ahortbreak ..

hate it to have ATMs closed overnight, how retro this country is

uff first coffee, finally brain starts working

@PauloCereda If you need any graphics produced for your slides, I'm the man to ask!

tex.stackexchange.com/help/badges/460/graphics

@JosephWright am I reading the LPPL right that there is absolutely no way for maintenance status to be transferred without the author's consent when the package is listed as 'author-maintained'?

@PaulGessler well no but there is also no way to prevent another project having the same name, so..

@PaulGessler One for someone with a legal background, of course

@PaulGessler That's my reading

@DavidCarlisle right, so what's the point? If anything that makes things more complicated, especially if the intent of the author-maintained option was to allow authors to "protect" their contributions.

@DavidCarlisle Still a bit of a pain, though, as you have to formally fork the project

@PaulGessler You might pick up from my blog that I am not a big fan of 'author-maintained'

@PaulGessler It wasn't intended to be a blocker ever the "maintenance" stuff got added (at 1.3 I think, I'd have to check) to make it explicit that there were situations where things could be taken over, the author maintained part looks quite reasonable until you have authors who vanish or die and then it's a bit of a legal minefield.

@DavidCarlisle Yes

Ammend it that in case of loss of contact for over 2 years the state can be changed?

But doesnt help for now

@JosephWright well you only need to fork the project of you want to become maintainer, outcome of lppl discussions with debian was basically the old "rename the file if you change it" rule was dropped so you can edit it without being maintainer, except in practice ctan might not take edits on those conditions

@norbert Would be more-or-less the same as maintained, no? In any case, only works if the license says 'version X or later'

@norbert that is basically what "maintained" says. We should probably drop "author-maintained" but revising the licence is too scary. Don't want to start another round of discussion with those pesky debian folks:-)

@DavidCarlisle hmm, the Debian discussion was before my time, but they accept DEK licenses, ie with renaming ...

@DavidCarlisle Quite: CTAN won't take stuff unless you are the maintainer, so ...

@DavidCarlisle dont get me started on debian legal, pita

@norbert I thought the DEK case was treated as a one-off

@norbert there is a single thread with 1600 messages on it, I don't particularly want to restart it. the official line on the DEK licence was that they can ignore it as it wasn't worded in a sufficiently legal way so they could if they wanted edit plain tex without renaming it.

@norbert I thought the DEK case was treated as a one-off

@JosephWright ignored.

@DavidCarlisle I'm not sure I'd fancy their chances in court: the intent is clear and judges are known to use common sense from time to time!

@JosephWright @DavidCarlisle i cant imagine those j**** ignoring anything that is not pure. Anyway, I won't touch it either, and I don't tell them anything. So unless they start digging around in TL which is very unlikely they will just keep that off the radar

Ame with the rebuild from source etc ...

@JosephWright doesn't matter, that's what they said and they said they would distribute tex without latex because the first LPPl said that files had to be renamed in a way that they thought they couldn't ignore whereas the comments in the tex source code say basically this is public domain but... and they felt they could stop reading at but

@DavidCarlisle That's a different question: I meant more if someone was damn fool stupid enough to ignore DEK's conditions and he took them to court, I would not bet either way on the outcome

@DavidCarlisle they cannot remove latex without breaking FTBFS about one third of the distribution and requirement to rip out docs for loads of projects. Ridiculous

@norbert Well things did get resolved so we will leave well alone

@norbert Does Debian include ConTeXt?

yes

@norbert Interesting: Hans is pretty clear he thinks the whole license business is a waste of time/energy

@JosephWright whom do you tell .. I'm the maintainer ;-)

@norbert they put out a public call for someone to re-implement an open source version from scatch....

@norbert Presumably Karl has got some statement on the legal for TL

Haaaaaaahaaaaaa

@JosephWright would be surprised. I wrote the copyright file

(artificial bird voices in the train station in kanazawa drive me nuts)

Ok everyone, boarding the train and working on my talk, see you later

Hello.

I'm struggling with \dots, \dotsc, \dotsb, \dotsm, etc.

I wouldn't have any problem if, between relations, \dots acted the same way.

But I get different outputs with < \dots < and = \dots =. So I think I've to define \dotsr for the dots between relations, to unify.

What would you do? What do you do?

@JosephWright comment from @jfbu just lead me to github.com/phst/lualatex-math which patches \newfam allocation for lualatex.....

@Manuel I get centered dots in both cases.

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{amsmath}
\begin{document}
$a<\dots<b=\dots=c$
\end{document}

Okey, bad example (the problem of doing so just from memory) \varsubsetneq \dots \varsubsetneq.

Ahm, okey, no, in fact it's because I'm messing with them.

@Manuel Centered dots also with them

I defined \newcommand*\subg{<}, and then \subg \dots \subg gives \ldots. What should I do?

@Manuel \let\subg=<

Hi everyone

@barznjy Hi

@egreg Okey, I'm a premature asker, I've been preparing a minimal example, the real problem (apart from that \let) is babel, I think, and its active <.

@Manuel Not if you do the definition before \begin{document}.

\documentclass{scrbook}

\usepackage[spanish,es-nolayout]{babel}
  \spanishdecimal{.}
  \unaccentedoperators
  \spacedoperators

\usepackage{mathtools}
\usepackage{amssymb}

\let\leq\leqslant
\let\geq\geqslant
\let\nleq\nleqslant
\let\ngeq\ngeqslant
\let\subsetneq\varsubsetneq
\let\supsetneq\varsupsetneq
\let\subg<
\let\supg>
\let\subgn\lhd
\let\supgn\rhd
\let\dotsr\cdots

\begin{document}
\begin{gather*}
  a = \dots = b \\
  a < \dots < b \\
  a \leq \dots \leq b \\
  a \nleq \dots \nleq b \\
  a \subg \dots \subg b \\

@barznjy If you're using pdflatex just don't convert the jpg. If you're using latex+dvips+ps2pdf, then you can only use EPS.

@egreg Okey, my only problem was with < (which is babel active) and with all the others I didn't \let.

@egreg Okey, so I just did spam here. The problem is that I thought this was a bigger issue. In any case, $a = \dots = b = \dots$, what \dots• should be used in this last case?

@Manuel \dotsb

@egreg I will follow blindly. Thanks.

@barznjy If the EPS are from JPG, just use the JPG.

@egreg No, the eps are from fig which is MatLab figure format

@barznjy Convert the EPS to PDF (but a recent TeX distribution should do it automatically).

@barznjy pdf and eps are interchangable without loss, so that isn't really an issue, you can convert all the eps to pdf and use pdflatex or convert the pdf to eps and use latex

@barznjy Well, this means that there's no fig3.??? in the pic directory, where ??? is one of the allowed extensions.

Or that epstopdf is not able to work in a subdirectory.

@egreg I have fig3.eps in the folder named pic, I am sure

@barznjy are you using latex or pdflatex

@DavidCarlisle pdflatex

@barznjy well by default it can't include eps so that would have been the expected result, the latest releases should call out to ghostscript to convert the file so it depends what release you have (but it's simpler anyway just to convert it yourself

@barznjy I created a pic subdirectory and copied there a fig3.eps file. Then I compiled, with pdflatex, the following file, with no problem at all; the EPS file was converted to PDF on the fly.

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{graphicx}
\begin{document}
\includegraphics{pic/fig3}
\end{document}

@barznjy What TeX distribution are you using?

MikTex

@barznjy if you have imagemagic installed then convert fig3.eps fig3.pdf will give you a pdf file, but as egreg says that is the old way

@DavidCarlisle NO, I don't have imagemagic, how I can get imagemagic ?

@barznjy google, click install ;-)

@JosephWright oh I see you are a committer on lualatex-math

@barznjy yes

@barznjy but you may have other tools, texlive comes with epstopdf for example. (all such tools are just wrappers around ghostscript)