TL2014 DVDs are on their way :-)

@PauloCereda Really is my birthday today

@JosephWright Happy birthday, Joseph!

@JosephWright Happy birthday!

@JosephWright Happy birthday! :)

@percusse: ^^ sir. :)

@JosephWright happy birthday:-)

@DavidCarlisle There might be cake. :)

@PauloCereda amazon.com/Votoys-Latex-Birthday-Cup-Cake/dp/B000USISS8

@PauloCereda the other images that came up weren't suitable for reposting:-)

@DavidCarlisle LOL

amazon.com/Complete-Guide-Latex-Allergy/dp/0975973541/…

This book might explain a lot. I think expansion is one of the biggest causes.

@PauloCereda we should send that to Hans Hagen for Christmas.

@DavidCarlisle ooh that's naughty, I like it! :)

any python devs here?

@StephanLehmke I hate Python. Shoot. :)

@PauloCereda What language would you recommend for teaching programming to a kid?

@StephanLehmke ooh tricky question. :)

I think I'd go with Lua or Ruby (Python is also good, but I don't like the space-oriented blocks). If type must be introduced, I like Pascal a lot. :)

@PauloCereda Sorry but I totally hate Ruby :-(

@StephanLehmke Me too, but I hate it less than Python. :)

@Stephan: Is JVM language also acceptable?

@PauloCereda All I care about is easy to learn basic concepts, easy to start, easy to debug, lots of libraries for easy game programming. pygame seems to be just the thing at the moment, but I'm open for alternatives.

@StephanLehmke Ah I see. :)

@StephanLehmke: Python it is then. :)

My son has bee struggling with C++ for a LaunchPad module, and I'd like to offer something slightly more accessible ;-)

@PauloCereda Would you happen to know an easy to use development environment (not Emacs ;-)

We tried scratch but it's a bit too far out for my taste.

@StephanLehmke I'm not into Eclipse, but maybe the PyDev plugin is worth a shot. :)

@PauloCereda As I know neither Eclipse nor Python, I'm afraid my son and I might be a bit overwhelmed ;-) I was thinking of something KISS specific for Python. Of course the fallback is using gedit and the command shell :-)

@PauloCereda It should be a language which is actively used in development, so you have libraries for doing significant things with it (not just academic). Otherwise I think I'd go with Logo or Scheme, then Oz :-)

@StephanLehmke :)

@StephanLehmke Scheme please. :) Or Algol! :)

@StephanLehmke javascript?

@DavidCarlisle I don't know javascript, so I'd have to rely on someone (you?) to tell me it's a good first programming language for a child, and point out resources for development. I found crafty with google, but I really couldn't judge how easy it is. From what I know so far, I'd say it's better as the second language.

@StephanLehmke Please, no JS. For the love of God, no JS! :)

@StephanLehmke don't know really it's just a suggestion. As you see from Paulo's response it's not the most loved language and its a mess from an architectural point of view, but in terms of available resources, available implementations, ease of distributing your new cool game to your less computer literate friends, then the web platform is hard to beat.

@DavidCarlisle Only if Stephan wants to ruin his kid forever

@Brent.Longborough or turn his kid into a mobile game web designer who'll be a billionaire by the time he's 16

@DavidCarlisle Ah, well, yes, there is that. But what about this: what is the language x such that 'x programmers love programming with x' is maximised? I'd be surprised if it were javascript, less so if it were python

@Brent.Longborough around here that would be fortran:-)

@StefanKottwitz have you seen this: texwelt.de/blog/kontakt/#comment-3926

@DavidCarlisle I'm torn between python and rexx

@StefanKottwitz Also the comment form seems to be missing on texwelt.de/blog/kontakt

@Brent.Longborough never seen rexx and never written python, but I'm sure they're good choices:-)

@DavidCarlisle No! No I'm not. Rexx arrays and functions are not objects in their own right

It's difficult. Python has a nice path from 'simple' programming, through o-o and functional programming, plus a superb library out-of-the-box

My impression is that although js has a massive amount of libraries, you have to go look for them

I guess in the end it's what you're used to. Python feels good to wield, like my AK47.

Maybe I should ask from a different angle: Has anyone else taught programming to their 12yo, what language and with which results? Do we have a site where this would be OT?

Hmph. I think I've spent nearly an hour googling for a page that concisely sums up why I don't want to receive HTML emails, written in terms that the average user would understand, that preferable isn't obscured by popups and adverts. It seems a bit odd that pages advocating plain text email over html should themselves look so cluttered!

@StephanLehmke I taught BASIC to my son when he was 6 years old.

@NicolaTalbot ooh and there's a BASIC interpreter in TeX! :)

@StephanLehmke Ada. :)

Or Modula.

Actually, teach him Perl.

It would be a great experience. It's like Leonidas hunting the wolf in the beginning of 300, but with $ instead of a spear.

Wait, did David suggest Fortran? Yes, yes, YES!

@NicolaTalbot Wow, that's early! I assume he could already read by then? And did he keep at programming since then?

@StephanLehmke Yes. He just started with simple print commands, then input. Since then, he's learnt little bits of perl, javascript, LaTeX, python and pascal. His favourite programming language is scratch, which seems specifically designed for kids.

@PauloCereda Already done :-)

@NicolaTalbot Wow.

package(hyperref).
package(imakeidx).
package(longtable).

author(heiko, hyperref).
author(egreg, imakeidx).
author(david, longtable).

hasbugs(X) :- package(X), author(Y, X), Y \== david.

paulo@alexandria ~$ gprolog
GNU Prolog 1.4.4 (32 bits)
Compiled Aug  3 2013, 20:07:38 with gcc
By Daniel Diaz
Copyright (C) 1999-2013 Daniel Diaz
| ?- consult('test.prolog').
compiling /home/paulo/test.prolog for byte code...
/home/paulo/test.prolog compiled, 9 lines read - 1114 bytes written, 4 ms

(1 ms) yes
| ?- hasbugs(imakeidx).

true ? .
Action (; for next solution, a for all solutions, RET to stop) ?

yes
| ?- hasbugs(hyperref).

true ? .
Action (; for next solution, a for all solutions, RET to stop) ?

@DavidCarlisle: ^^

@StephanLehmke scratch.mit.edu

@NicolaTalbot Yea, I also mentioned it above. But I just can't imagine writing a "real" program in it ;-)

@StephanLehmke Sorry, I didn't scroll back far enough!

@NicolaTalbot have you moved on to scratch 2 (flash ug:( yet M is still on scratch 1 although he'd rather do minecraft currently

@DavidCarlisle My son prefers 1.4 (although he recommends BBC basic instead!)

@NicolaTalbot yes 1.4 is what we have here. wow bbc basic on an emulator or do you have an original bbc still going?

@StephanLehmke My two cents: For me its not so easy to learn programming and I have never ever had a proper introduction to it. I really prefer having an interactive console where I can try single commands or expression to see how they work exactly. Then you don´t have to read complete APIs and so on...

@DavidCarlisle Acorn RiscPC mostly. Although I do still have my old Acorn Archimedes which I used for my PhD. (It had armtex on it, I think, but it's only got a 32Mb hard disc.)

Because of this I have so much fun learning python right now.

@PaulPaulsen Yes, my thoughts exactly about Python.

@StephanLemke Otherwise I would recommend java - I gives you some structure (eg. static typing) which always helps me organizing my thoughts and understanding things, there is a huge pile of material and it runs nearly everywhere. Also, writing classes somehow is fun for me. But it lacks the virtual console...

@PaulPaulsen Sorry, but by what I see of Java programming, the only way I'd approach it is with a cross and holy water...

@StephanLehmke :D I think it depends on your kid. If you think some structure will help it, I wouldn´t start with python. If you think extra structure is just in the way, take something more free. It is important that its possible to get some results fast, though, otherwise it will be difficult to keep interest up. Have you thought about tikz? ;)

@StephanLehmke How about Python through IPython?

@PaulPaulsen I'm not sure what you're getting at with structure. I can't see anything recommendable, at all, in the structure of Java programs.

@PauloCereda Are we still recommending tools for a child to begin learning to program? "sophisticated and powerful architecture" sounds more recommendable for power users...

@StephanLehmke Hm, maybe it mean more "explicitness". Thinking about making a field static and privat or public helps me a lot organizing the program in my head. However, I have no idea what is considered recommendable...

@PaulPaulsen The point is, this has no meaning outside the world of Java. So it's obsolete knowledge really.

@StephanLehmke I tried asking, but I'm not sure the response id that helpful.

I am the psychotherapist.  Please, describe your problems.  Each time
you are finished talking, type RET twice.

Should Stephan teach his child emacs lisp

Emacs?  Hah!  I would appreciate it if you would continue.

He wants to learn programming

Why do you say
he might want to learn programming?

I don't know, it might be useful.

What makes you believe
i do not know it might be useful?

You are not much help

Earlier you said
he would like to learn programming?

yes, can you help?

Maybe your life has something to do with this.

@StephanLehmke Was this reply to me? :) I didn't even mentioned this stuff. :)

@PauloCereda I got it from the IPython Wikipedia page :-)

@StephanLehmke Ah. :) I mentioned IPython because it has some goodies on the terminal. :)

@DavidCarlisle At least it's exactly the response I'd expect from any shrink on this subject :-)

Thanks for the discussion gals and guys, I'm off for a while.

@cgnieder Yes, it didn't survive the server migration. The contact form is installed and correctly used, I think, still there's an error and I did not find the cause yet.

@StefanKottwitz Did you see my e-mail?

@JosephWright The one regarding l3doc.ist from the list, yes, now that you ask I looked and found the other one

@StefanKottwitz The one related to TeX-sx and a moderation issue

yes, I'm currently reading it

@StefanKottwitz OK, just wanted to be sure it got through (seem to have some issues sending to Germany as one of the providers has marked my ISP as a spam source)

Those bad spammers, criminal hackers and bot makers :-(

@StefanKottwitz Indeed

Hmmpf, I seem to have used \fp_mul:Nn in every single of my packages...

@cgnieder We do give notice about deprecations, and according to Bruno those were bust for ages (we didn't have any tests)

@cgnieder If urgent I can add back in for the moment

@JosephWright I know, but I forgot I used it.

@JosephWright and I answered

@JosephWright No, I already fixed the packages. There'll be some updates to CTAN today

@cgnieder Probably the last stuff we'll remove outside of a 'once a year' cycle

@cgnieder Cool

@cgnieder btw. I also wrote an answer to that comment. I guess I should add templates for comments for such cases to make it easier to comfort OPs

@StefanKottwitz OK, some database issue maybe?

@StefanKottwitz Yes, I read it. In retrospective I should have given a longer comment when I noticed the question was closed...

@cgnieder I'll have a look again to fix it finally or I use another plugin

I just ordered a copy of Digital Typography. I'm really looking forward to reading it

@StefanKottwitz Good idea, imho. New users seem to be confused by the format of Q/As. And we all know, that users don't read FAQs. The reaction of the OP was a bit too much tough.

@Johannes_B Now it's an opportunity I took for tolerance training and practicing friendliness :-) (easy still if one isn't directly hurt ;)

@Johannes_B Which Q?

@JosephWright texwelt.de/wissen/fragen/6756/… Misusing this chat. We don't have one (yet).

@PauloCereda so my money is still in the balance...

@Johannes_B I guess I should setup an OpenFire server

but then I must teach Paulo German and lure him there :-)

@DavidCarlisle To be honest, I want Brazil to lose the game. Expect lots of riots in here when it ends. :)

@StefanKottwitz Hallo! :)

@PauloCereda Hallo Paulo! Wie geht es Dir?

@StefanKottwitz Errr.... Enten ist sehr cool!

@PauloCereda a thousand streakers during next games, such riots?

@StefanKottwitz They will paint the country red. :(

Let's hope the cup ends well and people got positive energy

(and Germany wins, of course)

@David: so let's go back to cricket, shall we? :)

I came back from the tour just in time for watching the penalties. Incredible outcome! Brazil was able to score three of them!

@egreg I thought of you. :)

@PauloCereda so Uruguay it has to be then....

@DavidCarlisle :)

@PauloCereda Have you ever heard about don Lorenzo Milani?

@StefanKottwitz Ich glaube, @PauloCereda kann die deutsche Sprache schnell lernen, er muss sich nur anstrengen. :-)

@Johannes_B Richtig. Ein Bier, bitte.

@egreg The name rings a bell, but I can't remember.

@egreg That is the right attitude.

@egreg Prost. ;-)

@PauloCereda He was a priest not really appreciated by the Archbishop of Florence, who sent him in a small church in the mountains. There he set up a school for the boys who couldn't afford going to middle school: the nearest village is like ten kilometers away, five of which very steep. He wrote some essays about this. I don't agree very much with his ideas, but I believe he was a really great man. I went to see the place where he had this school and where he died at 44.

@egreg wow, how nice!

@PauloCereda The place is just the church, the priest's house and another house; the priory collected people living nearby. It's not easy to imagine how life in the 50s could be up there: surely very difficult.

@egreg :(

@egreg: ready for tomorrow? Sancti Apostoli Petrus et Paulus. :)

@PauloCereda Of course! Oh, I was forgetting! The village near Barbiana (where Milani was) is Vicchio, the home of two very famous artists: Giotto and Beato Angelico.

@egreg ooh! :) When I finally manage to visit you, I hope one of this awesome tours is included in the visit. :)

@PauloCereda This is by no means an easy tour, I'd say. It didn't start well: a big traffic jam at Bologna, so I had to slightly change my plan: basically I did the tour counterclockwise rather than clockwise. Roads were mostly narrow and winding.

@PauloCereda Plus, the province of Florence has a rather peculiar idea of road safety: they placed 50km/h speed limit signs more or less everywhere. Of course, nobody respects them and nobody cares, too. So a straight road without houses and few crossings can be 50km/h, while a mountain road with hairpin turns is 70. Simply crazy.

@egreg Oh.

I still have a dual boot system (tough i didn't use the Wind0ws partition for two years).  I think it's time to move some space to `home`.

/dev/sda8        37G     35G  304M  100% /home
/dev/sda2       150G     26G  124G   18% /media/boettchj/WINDOWS

@PauloCereda oops

@DavidCarlisle Sorry for your money. ;-)