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1:57 AM
94
Q: Operation 'Split, All The Metas!' Shall Commence On April 16, 2014

Tim PostNot all of them mind you, just Meta Stack Overflow into Meta Stack Exchange. I'll have you know, factually, that we really did believe this would take place in six-to-eight weeks when it was originally announced, but we've finally got a tentative date established. If things go according to plan...

FYI:
Will be back on UK time later today :-)
 
 
1 hour later…
3:21 AM
Can someone else let me know if my solution at tex.stackexchange.com/questions/171147/… produces small caps. It seems that it does not for @cfr.
 
 
7 hours later…
9:55 AM
Morning everyone
I'm writing a rather long paper (~80 pages, quite a few crossreferences, citations, tables, equations and images) and each typeset takes around 20 seconds. That made me wonder, is latex capable of using more than one core? How optimized is it in that regard?
 
@Argo Don't use latexmk or equivalent each time you compile; during document preparation you rarely need that cross references and citations are perfect, or that line breaks and pagination are good. Add the draft option in order that images are not loaded.
 
10:12 AM
@egreg What TeX distribution did you use to check hyphenation of catastrophe?
 
@StephanHennig TL 2013
 
@egreg With current update level?
 
@StephanHennig Yes.
 
@egreg Hmm. Do you get proper hyphenation with xelatex and variant us?
 
@StephanHennig Here's the test file
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{ifxetex}

\ifxetex
  \usepackage{polyglossia}
  \setmainlanguage[variant=us]{english}
\else
  \usepackage[english]{babel}
\fi

\begin{document}
\parbox{0pt}{\hskip0pt catastrophe}
\end{document}
With XeLaTeX I get catas-tro-phe
The same with LuaLaTeX and pdflatex
 
10:21 AM
@egreg Ah, I get hyphenation in output, too. But adding \showhyphens{catastrophe} doesn't get hyphenation in the log file with xelatex.
 
@StephanHennig \showhyphens doesn't work with XeTeX. There's an emulation within xltxtra.
 
@egreg Thanks! Gotta run!
 
I see @egreg, I'll try that in the future. Still, I recall reading something about the latex3 project and that it would add support for multithreading and multicores.
 
@Argo Are you sure? LaTeX3 is about a layer, not a engine rewriting.
 
@Argo No, LaTeX3 is not aimed to the engines, just to the macro level.
 
10:28 AM
@egreg: Morning! :) Are you ready for the procession?
 
Alright, seems to be wishful thinkining then :)
 
@PauloCereda I'm going at the 7pm Mass for reading the Passion. The procession has been at the 10am Mass.
 
@egreg Oh! :)
 
@PauloCereda Too early for me. ;-)
 
@egreg Indeed. :) Ours start in 1:30h. :)
 
10:33 AM
@PauloCereda Prepare your throat.
 
Has anyone though of rewriting the tex engine? I'm aware of the "if it ain't broken, don't fix it", but I'm sure it could benefit quite a lot from some new love.
 
@egreg Eli, Eli, lemá sabactâni :)
 
10:49 AM
@Argo LuaTeX. But in principle TeX (and also LuaTeX) are just a big cycle: take a token, interpret it, do what's necessary and go on.
 
@egreg That's exactly what it is. :)
 
@PauloCereda So I guess multithreading and similar beasts won't do much.
 
@egreg It's very complicated since you need to establish dependencies. When you have the lexical thing going on, it has to be sequential. :)
Being TeX at least context sensitive, things get really dangerous. :)
 
@PauloCereda Maybe one could detach the output process: when a page is shipped out, control for writing the DVI/PDF can be passed to another thread, while the main one proceeds with the rest of the document.
 
@egreg That's an interesting idea. :)
 
10:56 AM
It'll probably be a while than
 
@PauloCereda The \shipout operation doesn't need input from other parts of the program: when the box has been built, \shipout just converts it to DVI/PDF format.
 
@egreg Hmmm I surely need to take a look at the code. :) Maybe if I poke Bruno, we could investigate it. :)
 
 
1 hour later…
12:19 PM
A couple of "reopen" votes here, please:
0
Q: Strange message on console

MickGWhat does the warning message Overfull \hbox (1.08093pt too wide) in paragraph at lines 29--30 []\EU1/TimesNewRoman(1)/m/it/10 Sia $\OML/ztmcm/m/it/10 A$ \EU1/TimesNewRoman(1)/m/it/10 irriducibile. mean? In fact, is it a warning?

 
12:32 PM
@egreg Heya egreg! Time for a short question ?
 
@N3buchadnezzar Here I am.
 
I am having problems getting my refferences working again.. They are questionmarks no matter how many times I compile
I tried searching stack and checked the common errors. eg spacing in filenames and not having the document linked to the bibilography
Still even after using latex-biblatex-latex-latex the refferences still will not show up
I am having the refferences in documents and including them by \include, but that should not cause any problems
 
@N3buchadnezzar Check the keys. And run BibTeX/Biber.
 
Yeah, that is what I am running
This is my minimum bibliography http://pastebin.com/6eMFazYS which is saved as REFF.bib and included with

\backmatter
%
\pagestyle{plain}
\bibliographystyle{plain}
\bibliography{REFF}
And I try to cite like "\cite{Alfhors} eller Rudin \citet{Alfhors}"
 
12:53 PM
@N3buchadnezzar Well, you're mistyping the key: Ahlfors, not Alfhors.
@N3buchadnezzar Also Real & Complex Analysis is wrong; the title is “Real and Complex Analysis”, but a naked & would be wrong anyway.
 
@egreg My book says &, but should it be \& or {\&} to work ?
 
@N3buchadnezzar An edition has & on the cover, but I've always seen it cited with “and”. You should use \&; but don't.
 
Yeah I know, I changed it to "and". I just looked at the cover, but see now that it has "and" everywhere else.
 
 
1 hour later…
2:18 PM
@egreg: back from the procession + mass. :)
 
@PauloCereda Did you get your small branch of olive tree?
 
Am I the only one having difficulty connecting to stackexchange sites? (all of them as far as I can see)
All other sites work fine, chat does as well, but the normal sites all load really slow, if at all
 
@hugovdberg No problem here.
 
@egreg Well, a branch. :)
Not olive. :)
 
@egreg hmm strange.. probably not stackexchange themselves but some gateway along the way, any fellow dutchies in here experiencing the same?
 
3:26 PM
@StephanHennig Here's some code (an improved version of the code in xltxtra for a working \showhyphens in XeLaTeX
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{fontspec}

\ExplSyntaxOn
\seq_new:N \l__xetex_showhyphens_seq
\box_new:N \l__xetex_show_hyphens_wrapping_box
\box_new:N \l__xetex_show_hyphens_temp_box
\box_new:N \l__xetex_show_hyphens_final_box
\box_new:N \g__xetex_show_hyphens_word_box

\cs_new_protected:Npn \xetex_show_hyphens:n #1
 {
  \box_clear:N \l__xetex_show_hyphens_final_box
  % split the input into items
  \seq_set_split:Nnn \l__xetex_showhyphens_seq { ~ } { #1 }
  % hyphenate all items
  \seq_map_function:NN \l__xetex_showhyphens_seq \xetex_hyphenate_word:n
 
 
1 hour later…
4:27 PM
I met a very old friend of @egreg today...
 
@Brent.Longborough Really?
 
@Brent.Longborough So now you know I'm real. ;-)
@Brent.Longborough Oh, no! A Venetian!
 
@egreg But Enrico, on the Internet today, Doge is a major craze
That's not a Doge, this is a Doge (Apologies to Crocodile Dundee)
 
@Brent.Longborough According to Wikipedia, that stone is not authentic (it was perhaps made up in the 19th century).
But it's true he was buried in Hagia Sophia.
 
4:32 PM
@egreg Ohmigod, you're too quick for me.
 
@Brent.Longborough Anyway, a Venetian Doge of the 12th century can have been your friend, not mine. ;-)
 
@egreg The r-i kerning startled me with visions of an auto-da-fé, just for an instant.
@egreg Molto LOL
I also found a café that really should be renamed as "The Contumacious Grocer"...
 
@egreg Sorry for having to quit suddenly earlier. And thanks for the \showhyphenscode. But I don't use xetex much. That's why I didn't know about \showhyphens in xetex. The only problem I still have is that there is no valid hyphenation with lualatex and variant usmax. Just to be sure, could you please try that combination again?
 
@Brent.Longborough With “Caffè Lavazza”! But I'd be scared of an Istanbul pizza.
@StephanHennig Sorry, my turn to go out now. I'll try later on.
 
@egreg cu!
 
4:42 PM
@egreg I'm not a pizza expert (other than knowing thry're part of ones five-a-say), but Turkish pide is delicious...
 
@egreg Reading more of TeX by Topic on my flight from Shanghai. I suspect the font choice was Herbert's, not Victor's, but there certainly are some odd decisions (non-italci math mode variables!). However, the content remains excellent. I wonder if he might be pursued to write some additional e-TeX chapters :-)
 
5:30 PM
@JosephWright Back home in a couple of hours? :)
 
@PauloCereda About 3: I'm waiting at Schiphol for a 'City Hopper' back to Norwich
 
@JosephWright how do you like the Netherlands? ;)
 
@hugovdberg Fine
 
6:07 PM
@StephanHennig It appears that with LuaTeX \language0 must be dumped in the format, so apparently it's not possible to change the hyphenation patterns for it with hyphsubst.
 
@egreg That is, variant is without effect for language english?
@egreg But there is an effect. Hyphenation is disabled with variant=usmax.
 
@StephanHennig It works with british, but not with usenglishmax
@StephanHennig No hyphenation is used, I guess
 
@egreg OK, will raise the issue on a LuaTeX related mailing list with
@egreg .
@ege
@egreg Thanks!
 
6:32 PM
@egreg which size moka express is best suited for a single user? not sure whether to get a 2 or 3 cup size, especially since I'm not sure if you can also fill it only partially
 
7:10 PM
I am looking for a full list of Texlipse-"wildcards". I am using windows and i want to add some custom DDE commands. I know only those three placeholders: "%fullfile", "%line", "%texfile" - i can not find a full list. I want to teach my AcrobatviewR11 to go to the page where i had my cursor on at compile time, if that is at all possible. This snippet worked; [DocGoTo("%fullfile", 3)] - now i need something like "%page".... does anyone have the link to the full list of arguments?
 
7:25 PM
@hugovdberg Never fill it partially. For single user I'd say the 1 cup size; but 2 cup is not so bigger. The 3 cup size is what I use for breakfast.
 
@hugovdberg Can you get a 3 cup size and 3x 1 cup content? The user can then combine them until the result fits the users purpose.
 
@Johannes Not sure to understand
 
@egreg i was just joking :)
 
7:42 PM
@egreg strangely the 1 cup size is actually more expensive than the 3 cup, so I'll go for the 2 cup size
@egreg I can always make a second cup (after some cooling down), or if it happens too often the larger sizes aren't that expensive.
 
8:07 PM
@hugovdberg Remember a couple of things: use the pots as often as you can and never use soap for cleaning them.
If a pot hasn't been used for a long time, make it go with already used coffee a couple of times.
 
@egreg what do you mean as often as you can?
 
@hugovdberg Don't leave them unused for a long time.
 
@egreg ah ok, I'll keep that in mind
 
@hugovdberg An unused moka will make disgusting coffee. One cleaned with soap too.
 
@egreg cleaning soap is often detrimental to taste indeed, so I'm quite used to cleaning kitchen utensils without soap
 
8:46 PM
I'm getting an unexpected result here. I'm trying to debug why a journal style file creates an extra blank page at the beginning. The unexpected result is that removing some commented lines also removed the blank page.
 
@FaheemMitha MWE? :)
 
@PauloCereda Yes, I'm working on it.
Kind of weird though.
 
Haha, Andrew's response to "How and when should I Introuduce my students to WolframAlpha?":
Is "Never" an acceptable answer? — Andrew Stacey 9 hours ago
 
@tohecz LOL Andrew, as usual, is awesome. :)
 
9:06 PM
0
A: How and when should I Introuduce my students to WolframAlpha?

toheczNever (I agree with Andrew Stacey). I think that in 2014 we can teach students to use opensource projects: Sage does a very good job: Sage Notebook is couple times better than Wolfram Alpha since you can use it with no subscription, save your worksheets and it's based on much better programming l...

 
There are maxima and axiom, which are free.
This looks like a new site.
I'm tempted to register on the site to upvote the people who are telling mathematica to sod off.
 
@FaheemMitha which one? Sage? It is new, but rather promising. It's my own experience: I use Sage (local install, not SageNB) basically every day
 
eg @tohecz answer.
@tohecz no, i meant the math educators site
i don't think sage is so new. i've been hearing about it for years.
 
@FaheemMitha ah ok, yep it's new
@FaheemMitha from 2005, but really usable for like 3 years
 
@tohecz ok. never used it, though i am a python user
never really used any symbolic package. it has never come up
 
9:11 PM
@FaheemMitha then you might want to give it a try when you need it, I quite like it. It has some problems (like memory leaks due to cython), but it's getting better.
 
@TorbjørnT. Wow. Coming from Norbert, this is serious stuff. Although I'm not surprised with the Debian people anymore (I remember something along the lines of licensing, probably Frank and David were exchanging emails with the Debian guys).
 
@PauloCereda yep, there were discussions that "LPPL is not a free license". In all honesty, the Debian people are idiots, and I say that no matter I share a department with one of their core team members.
@TorbjørnT. that's a sad story. Not for Debian itself, but for its users.
 
@tohecz Give him a slap. :)
@tohecz Fedora power. :P
 
@tohecz Yep.
 
9:24 PM
@TorbjørnT. Does it include Ubuntu? I do think so.
@PauloCereda well, he's SOMEONE, so no, I'm not going to give him a slap.
 
@tohecz Uh-oh. :)
 
@PauloCereda :D
 
@tohecz I don't know.
 
@TorbjørnT. Let's hope this isn't as bad as it sounds. I use the Debian TeX Live packaging. So do many other packages in Debian.
Coincidentally, I got a reply to a bug report from Norbert recently. He was not happy.
 
@FaheemMitha tl-install is the way to go.
 
9:32 PM
@tohecz So people tell me.
I think Norbert's reaction is a bit strong. I don't think Debian is so crazy as to ask for removal of TeX Live because of some PDFs that aren't built from source. How does TeX Live itself manage this? It doesn't have a way to build all these files?
 
@FaheemMitha You could raise your point in their mailing list. :)
And get ready to be assaulted. :)
 
@PauloCereda What point is that? Also, I'm unclear why this bastien ROUCARIES is an authority on what is required.
@PauloCereda Assaulted? Why?
 
@FaheemMitha You just said Debian is not crazy to ask for removal of TeX Live. :)
@FaheemMitha Past experiences from other people.
 
@PauloCereda Well, nobody has, have they? Norbert is extrapolating from one comment.
And that person just said it was a long term goal.
I don't even understand why he removed the flash files. He could have left it for the time being, and bought it up with the release team / ftpmasters when the time came.
though I didn't even know tex live contained flash files
 
@FaheemMitha At the end of the day, it's all about licensing for them. And Norbert, better than anybody out there, knows his own struggles. He's not only behind the Debian packaging of TL, he's behind TL itlself.
 
9:42 PM
@PauloCereda Well, everyone has their priorities. But I don't think Debian it quite as bad as people make out. They do care about their users.
I agree Norbert shouldn't have to shoulder this burden on his own.
@tohecz I'll bear that in mind. Have you tried maxima/axiom?
 
@FaheemMitha not really. I used to use Maple and Matlab (we've had them licensed at my uni), then I switched to C++ for maths, and then to Sage.
 
@FaheemMitha That's the goal of every community, but the question is, at what price do they care about their users. :) One says po-tay-to, others say po-tah-to. :)
 
@PauloCereda True. I agree this rebuilding from source thing, though a reasonable goal in itself, puts an additional burden on already overworked volunteers.
 
@FaheemMitha no, that is not reasonable.
 
@tohecz You don't think it is reasonable?
 
9:49 PM
@FaheemMitha Exactly. :)
 
@FaheemMitha No. Source-code of most fonts is larger than the binaries (even if you bzip2 it), and the compilation takes like hours. That's just an example. Compilation of a LaTeX document on a computer without LaTeX fully installed yet is close to impossible; the graph of file dependencies for TeX is sooooo complicated that it makes zero sense to try to achieve that. And I imagine that lots of other programs suffer the same problem.
 
@tohecz I didn't have fonts in mind. I was thinking about the documentation PDFs.
 
@tohecz ooh that reminds me the day I asked homebrew to build Octave. 5 hours and counting. :P
 
@tohecz debian's position on paper at least sounds reasonable. have the preferred source for modification available, and build from it.
easier said than done, granted.
 
@FaheemMitha that's a scary stuff, too, because then you brake packages into sub-packages, just because someone thinks that binaries are devilish
 
9:53 PM
@tohecz Why subpackages?
@PauloCereda what is homebrew?
 
@FaheemMitha because in order to compile doc/float, you need tex/latex/caption, and in order to compile doc/caption you need tex/latex/float.
 
@FaheemMitha It's a package manager for MacOSX.
 
And now imagine I want to install float.sty, but not caption.sty. However, the manual float.pdf was created using caption.sty, so I have to install the package only to get documentation of another package. Ridiculous.
 
@tohecz Ah. I see. Yes, that does sound like one would need to split stuff up then. build the documentation after the actual packages.
@tohecz Extra work, certainly.
 
@FaheemMitha extra work, extra bugs, extra problems. useless work.
 
9:56 PM
But how does TeX Live make sure the documentation is up to date if they don't build it as part of the build process?
 
@FaheemMitha you have to submit documentation with every submission to CTAN. Then it's syncronized into TL. Many people submit a DTX file, which is both. But I do not, for instance.
 
@tohecz Ah, I see. So the writer of the package builds it.
 
@FaheemMitha yep, that's the no-DTX option.
 
@tohecz Ok.
Are the dtx versions built as part of the TeX Live build?
 
@FaheemMitha typically yes, AFAIK. Certainly all three files are shipped in TL: .dtx, .sty, .pdf
This is an interesting discussion, but I gotta go. Good night!
 
10:01 PM
@tohecz I see. Thanks.
@tohecz Take care.
 
@FaheemMitha thanks! bye!
 
@tohecz I think the packages are built on the Debian servers, so a user wouldn't need to install all packages which are required to build another documentation.
@tohecz I still agree with you, that this whole pdf-compilation-business doesn't make much sense :)
 
10:38 PM
@HarishKumar hi. are you there?
@Christoph They wouldn't, but they would still need to build the latex packages themselves before building the documentation.
maybe
Anyway, it certainly makes things more complicated.
 
@Faheem Definitely
@Faheem I wouldn't want to be the one who has to care for this build process ;)
 
I wrote my chat entrie above into a question:
http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/171300/where-can-one-find-the-documentation-for-texlipse-parameters
 

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