@tohecz thanks for the bounty (I may add the header bit later)

@PauloCereda No more interviews? ???

When do we interview you?

@PauloCereda ^^^ what was next year is now last year

@percusse People are running away. :) I'll try to use other methods. :P

@DavidCarlisle Oh.

@PauloCereda Catch percusse ;) He is one of the dons of tikz mafia:)

@HarishKumar True. :)

@PauloCereda We should have an interview this month atleast.

@HarishKumar Indeed.

Off to a conference I go. :) I'll pop up randomly during the following days, don't worry. :) Have a nice day, friends! :)

@DavidCarlisle Looking forward to your input on the case changing business!

@egreg (and others with an L3 interest) Any thoughts on github.com/latex3/svn-mirror/issues/141?

I'm prodding the team to get it sorted

I forced a line break at the beginning of my proof, so that my itemize can always be flush left (so the first item isn't pushed over by the "Proof." text). But there seems to be too much space between the lines. What could cause this?

@JosephWright A \tl_transform:nn function that starts with zero codes might be slooooow in LuaTeX or XeTeX.

Anyone has a different opinion? Should I cast a close-vote and flag it for migration?

@jtbandes \topsep of yout {itemize}?

@JosephWright There comes a point where you seriously consider dropping classic tex support. If we advertise a new lowercasing function I think it should (this century) work with utf8 and writing an expandable lowercaser decoding utf8 as it goes sounds rather dull.

@egreg The zeroing is a part we have to think about, clearly

@egreg What one can imagine in a format is not the same as what one can do in a package

@DavidCarlisle Don't quite follow: where does decoding come in?

@JosephWright The zeroing of the \lccode (huge) array would be performed at compile time. It would be different if LuaTeX had a concept of "lccode status" similar to what it has for catcodes.

@egreg Yes, I follow. What I mean is the current discussion in the issue comments covers what one could do if you built a format, where you could reasonably zero everything as part of the format-building step.

Clearly that is not on for a package, so we have to compromise/rethink interfaces/...

@DavidCarlisle I don't see Frank going for dropping pdfTeX support any time soon, and indeed that would have a big knock-on effect on packages using expl3

@JosephWright If OpenType fonts had upper/lowercasing as a feature...

@JosephWright I know, but sometimes you can't help but wonder....

@JosephWright I don't see how you can lowercase without decoding the utf8 bytes giving the unicode slot, lowercasing to another slot and then re-encoding as utf8, although I suppose if you have already expandably got to an 8bit LICR representation \^O or whatever you can get away with leaving the \^ and lowercasing the O, I suppose the question then is how much of Unicode has a lowercase/uppercase pairing that can't be expressed as the lowercasing of an ascii letter together with a diacritic

@egreg Some do, I believe

@DavidCarlisle As you might know, I favour saying 'pdfTeX is essentially 8-bit: if you want/need Unicode use a suitable engine'. On the other hand, LICR does work for lots of people, so there is some realism

Is there a way to redefine \mathnormal? I have the problem that mathnormal still uses Latin Modern, while e.g. \mathit uses already the Minion Pro (tex.stackexchange.com/questions/152714/…)

Quack. :)

@DavidCarlisle I'm currently imagining that an expandable \tl_to_(lower|upper)case:n will 'expect' to receive LICR in the pdfTeX case, and of course 'proper' UTF-8 otherwise. So as you say \^o => \^O for upper casing, etc.

@JosephWright and Greek?

@DavidCarlisle Interesting question

@JosephWright and Cyrillic

@DavidCarlisle I guess at present I'm mainly thinking about the subset of cases where \(upper|lower)case does work but is not expandable. As far as I know, the primitve fails for Greek, etc. with pdfTeX anyway

@DavidCarlisle All fair questions, of course

@JosephWright unicode.org/Public/UCD/latest/ucd/CaseFolding.txt

@DavidCarlisle Rather a long list: may not be doable expandably at all :-(

@JosephWright well quite.

At least not in XeTeX: perhaps in LuaTeX

@DavidCarlisle Seems a rather depressing situation

@JosephWright well get luatex to use xetex style font loading and just use luatex.

@JosephWright having three engines is the depressing situation, the classic downside of opensource projects, too many forks

@DavidCarlisle Still issues in other areas, most notably would kill entire project :-)

@DavidCarlisle Of which only 1 is really stable

@JosephWright it's stable and if you are an English speaking mathematician, it does all you need anyway. But...

@DavidCarlisle Not sure that is fair

@JosephWright A fair analysis wouldn't fit in the line length of the comment block, and anyway if you are poking the elephant in the room, it's best to be brutal rather than fair:-)

@DavidCarlisle I have in the past suggested that we say 'OK, LaTeX3 will assume only engine-supported input, so pdfTeX strictly 8-bit and UTF-8 with XeTeX or LuaTeX', so I'm not necessarily disagreeing entirely. However, lots of people do manage perfectly happily with pdfTeX, at least for western European languages.

For end users, moving to XeTeX/LuaTeX is easy enough, but that's not so simple for publishers

@JosephWright yes sure, but lots of people manage perfectly happily with 2e as well, so I'm not sure that's an argument.

@JosephWright yes I know, but if you ask them in advance they'll say they woudn't switch to a new format or a new engine,

@DavidCarlisle Not sure that is true: they manage as there is not a better option

Whereas inputenc does work for western European languages more-or-less without incident

@DavidCarlisle I do see your point, but I also see take-up of expl3 by people for lots of things, and I'm reluctant to break their code

Perhaps we just have to forget case changing

@DavidCarlisle I do hope you'll summarise this nicely on the team list :-)

@DavidCarlisle Or should I raise this?

@JosephWright Speaking of a (relatively small) publisher: I'm not sure which will be bigger pain-in-the-keyboard: whether switching to L3 or switching to Xe/Lua*.

@tohecz Also understood

@tohecz Thinking is for a larger publisher using something customised rather than just TeX Live, adding a new format is easy but altering binaries is hard

Of course, in reality it's quite possible that it might be an 'all of nothing' switch anyway

Interrupting...

One more practical problem is that as @DavidCarlisle says at present you'd want the XeTeX font loader but other aspects of LuaTeX, so there isn't exactly one idea engine

@CodeMocker :-)

How to make the cell content get vertically centered when I increase its height via \arraystretch?

\documentclass[preview,border=12pt,varwidth]{standalone}

\renewcommand\arraystretch{5}
\begin{document}

\begin{tabular}{|c|c|}\hline
Time & Monday \\\hline
16:00-16:30 &\\\hline
16:30-17:00 &\\\hline
\end{tabular}

\end{document}

the output looks bad from perfectionists' point of view.

@CodeMocker simplest for one off is to use \\[4pt] (or whatever it takes)

@DavidCarlisle I've summarised the points for the rest of the team :-)

@JosephWright I've got mail;-)

@DavidCarlisle :-) Let's hope you agree that you said what I think you did!

Very popular!

Probably because of my answer. :-) too confident...

Is it allowed to ask a pgfplot related question here, which would perhaps not be worth opening a new question?

@Largh Go for it; if it's too involved for chat someone will tell you to open a question. :)

@Largh You can certainly ask :-)

it does not seem to have \addplot slot for the dots (based on my limited understanding), so I am confused

Hey everonye.

Is it possible to use \bigskip inside a tabular

?

@Largh This should do the trick: \addplot+[color=black,only marks,mark options={fill=black}][error bars/.cd,x dir=both, x explicit]

@PaulGessler Ah, thanks! I was trying to find the command from the manual. "mark" is kind of logical name =)

Could not figure it out on my own though. The package is fantastic, but a bit difficult to use for new beginners as it's often the case.

@ppr You can add space after a row with \\[\bigskipamount] or any other dimension inside the brackets.

is anyone using PGF 3.0 yet?

@DavidCarlisle Back on case-changing, do you have objections (other than the one @egreg points out) on the 'transforming tokens' part of the question?

@JosephWright I like Bruno's analysis. In \tl_transform:nnn one could set codes to 0 for the ASCII characters and warn about the danger of using other tokens in it.

@egreg Was also my thinking

@JosephWright Unfortunately, tricks with funny tokens are useful.

@egreg Yes

@egreg Hence needing an interface

@JosephWright Unfortunately, the closing brace for \uppercase must be explicit. ;-)

@JosephWright why don't we use \savinghyphcodes in latex (is it an etex feature that doesn't work, or did we just never do it)?. If the lcodes for hyphenation were language specific (by setting \savinghyphcodes non zero) then you could switch to an all 0 lccode regime as a no-op base for transforms by switching to a null language.

@DavidCarlisle I think that \savinghyphcodes is used only in the hyphenation mechanism, to make pattern lookup independent of the current lccodes; switching to all 0 lccode would make \lowercase unusable in a document.

@egreg oh yes so it is, well you could use it as a "clean" transform primitive for switching tokens specified in each call, and for lowercasing strings you could use a slow expandable version, perhaps, but at least you wouldn't mess up hyphenation while doing so,

@DavidCarlisle There was some debate on the "hyphenation mailing list" about \savinghyphcode. IIRC Mojca Miklavec said it doesn't work as expected.

@egreg I guess I'll have to test

@egreg I had a dim recollection of some ancient discussions along those lines but the details escape me (I must have been in some discussion for me to remember that there was such a thing:-)

@JosephWright It would simplify something with babel, because the lccodes shouldn't be changed any more at language transitions.

@egreg, @DavidCarlisle Reading the e-TeX manual, it seems clear that the codes only get saved w.r.t hyphenation, so that doesn't help in the case of 'weird tokens'.

Also, we are talking something at format-building time: I wonder what LuaTeX does in this regard (as hyphenation patterns are not saved in the same way anyway)

Hmm:

Not sure I like the sound of that last part!

@JosephWright It may be that expandable \uppercase and \lowercase can be introduced.

@egreg That can be done anyway in LuaTeX using \directlua (although I remember there is still some issue with UTF-8 and how Lua handles it in general)

Or rather expandable case changing for 'text': I'm not sure about the catcode part being so obvious

@JosephWright Possibly. But Lua is something I can't make sense of.

In the TeX FAQ it says that TeX wasn't designed as a programming language. Is there a definitive source for that or is it just generally recognised as true?

Hello! You gotta love how some classes are made in a "clever way":

\DeclareOption{oneside}{\relax}
\DeclareOption{twoside}{\@twosidetrue \@mparswitchtrue}
...
\ExecuteOptions{twoside,onecolumn}
\ProcessOptions\relax

@DavidCarlisle Perhaps Psmith should interview @Paulo ;-)

@tohecz If I set topsep=0 nothing changes. So it's something else

@jtbandes Setting \topsep after starting itemize can't work. You can use enumitem and then \begin{itemize}[topsep=0pt]

@egreg @jtb this.

That's what I meant when I said I set topsep=0 :)

@NicolaTalbot well, you probably need to ask Don ... or barbara, she might know better :)

btw, @Nicola, can I kindly ask you, is the correct usage of "look into"? "We have started looking into Problem 81"

Hello to everyone! Does(did) anybody use Sumatra PDF?

@tohecz Yes, that sounds okay.

@NicolaTalbot wow! I really didn't expect it :)

look into ≈ investigate

@tohecz It's in the Oxford English Dictionary :-)

@AndrewZabavnikov I do

@tohecz I was going to mention it in my new LaTeX book, but I probably ought to cite it if I do.

@PaulGessler Have you ever experienced the problem when fractions' horizontal lines are too thick at certain zoom levels? (100%, for example :-)

@NicolaTalbot yeah, but then you have the problem of valence: "started looking into" or "started to look into", and stuff

@tohecz those both sound correct :)

@jtbandes oh my, I'm lost. Well, maybe I'm not, since in Czech, some valences have alternating cases and you can decline the phrase in two different ways :)

@tohecz It would probably be easier to write "We have started investigating Problem 81" then you don't have so many "oo" sounds.

@AndrewZabavnikov not sure, are you talking about font hinting?

@NicolaTalbot I'm not a writer, I don't need to care about my "oo"zing :)

@PaulGessler Maybe, I'm not sure what causes it...

@AndrewZabavnikov I think it must be that if it only happens at a certain zoom level. I tend to not worry about that sort of stuff since it depends on how the displayed page is aligned relative to the pixel grid of your display.

@egreg Yep I missed that one, now it's too late

@tohecz LOL :-) If you've got "looking into" you've got an adjacent "ing" and "in" which can clash a bit and with "to look into" you've got too many "oo"s although there's some variation as to the reader's pronunciation of "look", which has regional variations. I'm a writer so I get pulled up on such minor details as repetition and word/syllable etc clashes ;-) Of the two "started to look into" sounds too clumsy but both are grammatically correct.

@PaulGessler That's ^^ what I meant. Look at the fractions and roots!

@tohecz Although, I ought to point out that, so far, no one has criticised the repetition of "quack" in "Quack, quack, quack. Give my hat back!"

@egreg I know only the basics at present: I need to get the latest book to update myself, too!

@AndrewZabavnikov Yep, that's the lack of hinting (see here) Note that on a different line (equation below) the fractions are totally fine.

@NicolaTalbot well, it's a child book, isn't it? Children love repetitions :)

@tohecz I don't know much formal linguistics, but you can do the same with "started investigating" or "started to investigate", so it's not entirely surprising that it works with "look into"

@tohecz :-) Yes, it's great, there's a completely different set of "rules" for children's writing. In fact, it's almost the opposite. (For example, adult fiction should minimise the use of adjectives or adverbs, but with children's fiction the more the better!)

@PaulGessler Okay then, can it be enabled? From what I googled, it cannot. Does anything else has both inverse search capability and hinting?

@AndrewZabavnikov I think you're correct in that it can't be enabled. From what I've read it is a compile-time switch but those who have tried it ran into errors.

As far as other viewers, I'm not sure. I've used Sumatra for some time and I have no issues with it.

@NicolaTalbot yes, because it's the only way how can children learn them properly!

@tohecz Very true!

@PaulGessler You mean, you don't have my issue? Something that I should do with LaTeX sources?

@AndrewZabavnikov Nothing to do with your LaTeX sources. Open the pdf in Adobe Reader and it will display fine. What I meant when I said "no issues" is that I see this aliasing sometimes, but I don't worry about it.

@PaulGessler Okay, thank you :-)

Ack from an apartment in the big city. :)

@JosephWright yes I was thinking that because hyphenation was using saved lccodes you could zero the main lccode table, but as egreg said that would mean \lowercase was pretty useless for lowercasing

Can't I use expl3 inside a datatool foreach?

OK, next approach: etoolbox.

@PauloCereda With a network access point! Cool!

@egreg I'd die without an internet connection. :)

I have \DTLforeach{mycsvstuff}{\listofguys=Names}{...} where \listofguys gets a comma separated list as well. Apparently, when I go with \docsvlist{\listofguys}, the list is not parsed. I probably need to expand something, I guess. :)

@PauloCereda Roma-Napoli is on 2:1 (Coppa Italia semifinal). Higuain just scored.

@egreg Oh my! By the way, you won't believe the story I'll tell you later on by email. :) It's about soccer. :)

@egreg: Is Barça playing today?

@PauloCereda No idea.

@egreg Oh actually it is. :)

@egreg: Hey I owe you another beer!

@PauloCereda What for?

@egreg Some random TeX code from you I found in the site that solved my problem. :)

@PauloCereda I know why: I use meaningful names for commands, instead of sleepy names such as \z, \zz or \zzz.

@egreg Pretty much it. :)

And also a very insightful comment which opened my eyes.

@PauloCereda :) Where was it?

@egreg Oh I closed the tab. It was a \foreachin using xparse.

@PauloCereda Something about having two distinct commands for managing an explicit or implicit list?

@egreg Exactly.

Napoli scored: 2:2

@egreg go Napoli!

@PauloCereda 3:2

@egreg Roma? :(

@PauloCereda There will be another match in Naples.

@egreg Oh!

Hello, @CodeMocker saved my day: “Rounding the corner to make it safe for children.” (tex.stackexchange.com/revisions/…)

@NicolaTalbot MiKTeX and Perl scripts (and one Python script)

@DavidCarlisle See long rambling e-mail :-)

I'm producing all kinds of certificates for a conference and I must say: the XeLaTeX + datatool + expl3 combo is awesome. :)

@PauloCereda Cool

@PauloCereda Does it involve case-changing?

(See earlier discussion!)

@JosephWright with a cameo of @egreg's code, of course. :)

@JosephWright I wish. :) Actually, I edited the .csv file manually (just one entry was bad).

(sorry, notebook is big, but apparently not big enough -- stupid 15.6"). :)

Did Apple stop those insane 17" MacBook Pros?

@JosephWright: about the case case (ooh look what I did there): the L3 team could distribute some wearable devices that produce a 220V shock every time a user tries to (lower|upper)case some sentence, and probably some red text on a yellow background appears on screen shouting "YOUR TEXT, YOUR pROBLEM! (oh teh ironY!)" :)

No pain no gain. :)

Of course, arara 4.0+ has:

% arara: pdflatex if !contains("tex", "fncychap")

@egreg's favourite conditional. :)

@PauloCereda In this case it issues a warning: "compiling this file would make one thousand kittens die".

@egreg Oh I like it! (it might be really possible to do this with arara 6.0) :)

Not kill kittens, of course. :)

@PauloCereda With arara 7.0 it will be possible to think compiling a file to have the preview open on the screen. And with error correction on the fly.

@egreg If I can find a good PDF renderer, this might be really possible. :)

@JosephWright How to deal with this: I started a closing process as duplicate for \includesvg does not detect SVG file (I actually had to add a link to Heiko’s answer). It was closed then, but now reopened. Cf. my comment below Heiko’s answer: tex.stackexchange.com/q/158571/#comment362427_158612.

@Speravir @JosephWright Heiko's answer should be moved to the other question. There's a difference though, because the newer one asks specifically for LuaTeX.

@egreg Yes, I noticed this too late, as I started the process. But I added a link to Heiko’s answer in my one (before he made the edit for Windows in his answer). (@JosephWright) When Heiko’s answer would be moved, this would be good, but then both our answers had to be tidied up(?).

Can a flag be undone?

@GonzaloMedina No.

@Speravir Darn it!

@Speravir Can I dispute it, at least?

@GonzaloMedina I do not know, but I don’t think so. But I would love it, too, to revoke or at least, add a remark later.

@GonzaloMedina Which question? We can deem invalid I guess

@percusse “We” means users above 10k I guess?

@percusse this answer: tex.stackexchange.com/a/158792/3954 I flagged it after quickly reading it in the review section without seeing the actual question first (something I had never done before), but then when I read the question, I decided it shouldn't be flagged.

@GonzaloMedina Just found this (there is probably more of this):

Oh, the user avatar …

@Speravir I can haz mizclicked flags? :-)

@GonzaloMedina Yes but I was wrong. I don't see any review items

@PaulGessler Yes, YOU can! Paul “Bob the Builder Obama” Gessler (oupps first misread the forename) …

@Speravir Thanks. I guess I just had a little "panic attack" being the first time I consciously mis-flagged an answer; after all, I guess it's not such a big deal.