TeX, LaTeX and Friends

Stephan Lehmke

03:31

Epic answer by Bruno to my arrays question:

4

2

A: How to implement (low-level) arrays in TeX

So, first let me say that this is probably the most thoroughly researched question I've read so far. Congratulations. I'll be reusing some of David's comments. The hashing algorithm takes the csname as an array of bytes (probably some differences there for XeTeX and LuaTeX, let me focus on 8-b...

Alan Munn

03:48

@StephanLehmke Although this discussion is really of no use to me as a general LaTeX user, or even as a sometimes package writer, I've really enjoyed reading both your question and Bruno's answer.

Stephan Lehmke

@AlanMunn I was intrigued by the fact that you keep hearing mystic warnings from the sages about bad hash performance, but it's very hard for the average TeX programmer to put this into a practically relevant perspective (i.e. what does this mean for actual run time).

Alan Munn

@StephanLehmke Definitely. But your investigation of it was itself epic. Also implementing data structures in TeX is kind of McGyver-like (if you know that reference).

Stephan Lehmke

@AlanMunn Of course! It is particularly noteworthy that a lot of package authors (sometimes even kernel authors :) seem to be lazy about the efficiency of their code. For the intended use cases this is probably mostly harmless, but things tend to get abused, and if some inefficient code gets used in the implementation of, say, a math symbol, it can suddenly get millions of calls in a substantial document.

Alan Munn

@StephanLehmke Luckily Bruno is the master of code optimization.

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Joseph Wright

07:05

@StephanLehmke David K is very down on TeX's hash algorithm, and I think for him it's a question of the 'true way'

@StephanLehmke Optimisations in LaTeX2e are pretty carefully done. We've also had quite a lot of discussion about various L3 things and how best to do them.

Stephan Lehmke

@JosephWright Yes I know. In fact his critique is valid as it is based on the actual implementation of the hash algorithm. Still it is interesting to see what this means for the performance of actual TeX code.

@JosephWright In fact "seem to be" can very well mean there are good reasons the code looks like it does which are not obvious. Still a naive question can go a long way to make this clearer to the average user.

Joseph Wright

@StephanLehmke Indeed: I think it's a 'moral' argument as far as he's concerned (i.e real-world performance has nothing to do with it!)

@StephanLehmke Optimisation can also be about different things. For 2e, David and Frank worked really hard to save tokens as at the time that was absolutely critical. For expl3 the balance is different: we are happier to burn through tokens if they make the code clearer. That's at least one reason why it may be worth revisiting prop and seq data types in light of the array discussion.

I know for siunitx I've been though at least three approaches for the unit parser and three or four for parsing numbers to try to gain performance, and I think the number one needs yet another pass!

One chapter for an expl3 programmers guide is clearly 'Performance considerations'

Paulo Cereda

09:14

@JosephWright But I set fire to the tokens! Watched them burn as I wrote my code! LaTeX3 is the key, as I exploit a lot of interfaces! Interfaces...

Herbert, Hanoi, Vietnam

135k 6 166 386

Hey guys, Herbert is now 18! :)

Donut E. Knot

It is too lete. video.ak.fbcdn.net/hvideo-ak-prn1/v/…

Paulo Cereda

09:33

@DavidCarlisle: now that one was Spanish. :)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda I am a master of all languages.

2

Paulo Cereda

@egreg: Today is Santa Lucia. :) And yesterday we had Our Lady of Guadalupe. :)

@DavidCarlisle I know. :)

Forkrul Assail

10:16

@PauloCereda, though you might find this interesting coolwanglu.github.io/vim.js/web/vim.html

Paulo Cereda

@ForkrulAssail Very nice! :)

Stephan Lehmke

I wonder whether it ever gets slow on syntax highlighting...

David Carlisle

@ForkrulAssail easy to port trivial code to javascript these days, might be harder to do it with a real editor.

Forkrul Assail

@DavidCarlisle, I didn't mean to stir, please take off the gloves.

David Carlisle

@ForkrulAssail actually it's quite impressive, I went to look if there was an emacs.js but that is a js mode for emacs which isn't the same thing. (It's impossible to stir editor flames between @PauloCereda and me, it's a perpetual state of war anyway:-)

Forkrul Assail

10:25

@DavidCarlisle hehe, I know, just helping with some holiday kindling :)

@DavidCarlisle, that'd be great for my students, but think I'll recommend the portable emacs next semester.

@DavidCarlisle getting my head around org-mode today as my supervisor is reading, and I'm dead tired of my document.

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle <3

@StephanLehmke I see what you did there. :)

Forkrul Assail

@PauloCereda, have you come across anything related to reference weighting systems since we mentioned it last?

Paulo Cereda

@ForkrulAssail I'm deeply sorry, I had no time so far to take a look at them.

Forkrul Assail

@PauloCereda, just stumbled on my note for looking at it later.

Paulo Cereda

@ForkrulAssail :)

Stephan Lehmke

11:03

@DavidCarlisle Somehow I always read a statement about llamas here...

Marco Daniel

Any experts of Dollars per module around? pm.stackexchange.com/questions/10371/…

Paulo Cereda

11:22

►

:)

Forkrul Assail

@PauloCereda, nap time.

Paulo Cereda

@ForkrulAssail nah, llamas are evil and scary. :)

Forkrul Assail

@PauloCereda, this woman can never teach post-grads.

Stephan Lehmke

@PauloCereda Funny, down at your place, Llamas seem to occupy the place in kids stories reserved for sheep up here ;-)

Paulo Cereda

@StephanLehmke Sadly, llamas are unknown here. :) I think the influence is strong in Peru and around the Andes region.

Stephan Lehmke

11:31

@PauloCereda I was once bitten by an alpaca in a zoo :-)

Paulo Cereda

@StephanLehmke Oh my! Really?

Stephan Lehmke

@PauloCereda It was not too bad (upper arm). I had a jacket on, so no blood. Only a minor bruise. But they have strong teeth ;-)

Paulo Cereda

@StephanLehmke Oh. :)

@Stephan: you got mail. :)

Marco Daniel

11:54

I believe I am misunderstanding the question: tex.stackexchange.com/questions/149827/reference-custom-styles -- For me the OP wants to reinvent the wheel.

Joseph Wright

12:15

@MarcoDaniel Does seem this way

Stephan Lehmke

12:52

@DavidCarlisle You're not really the discouraging type are you :-)

You may naeed to say \addtocounter{equation}{2} before the figure* and \addtocounter{equation}{-2} after to correct that. It is not ideal but it is a hard limit in the latex float algorithm it can not place two-column floats on the same page (as it has already committed to the page height for that page.) — David Carlisle 27 mins ago

Sounds a bit like telling a blind man who asks for the shortest way to the next bus stop "just right on" (accross the freeway).

Wouldn't "don't put numbered equations in floats" have been a more useful advie?

egreg

13:11

@PauloCereda Give my best wishes to mamma Lucia!

Paulo Cereda

13:28

@egreg Thank you! She thanked you for your kindness! :)

kan

@egreg Do you have some time to help me with setting up aquamacs viewing with skim, both ways - forward and inverse searches?

David Carlisle

@StephanLehmke some journals really want you to do that, it's just that latex can't really do it. Obviously you really want anything to float if it is numbered in sequence things in the page, but except on the first page latex doesn't have a non-floating are at the top of the columns, so abusing the float area is practically speaking the only way to do it.

egreg

@kan Later on. Now I'm on the train, in half an hour I should be home.

kan

@egreg Sure thing! Please ping me when you'd be available! FYI, the problem is the aquamacs freezes on C-C C-v.

egreg

14:14

@kan Here I am.

kan

@egreg Hah! So, shall we start setting things up? ATM, C-c C-v is broken.

Amacs freezes.

egreg

@kan I tried on my Aquamacs and it works.

kan

@egreg So, is there a way I can say go back to default or something? But, I swear I did not change anything.

egreg

@kan C-c C-v should be bound to TeX-view; is it?

@kan It could be a consequence of you reinstalling manually AUC-TeX.

kan

@egreg Oopsie.

How do I fix this?

Like uninstall and install again? the whole aquamcs?

@egreg how do i verify this?

egreg

14:22

@kan I'd first try reinstalling Aquamacs. Remove the icon by trashing it; remove also the “Aquamacs Emacs” folders you find in ~/Library/Preferences and ~/Library/Application Support

@kan If you have a ~/.emacs file, rename it, at least for testing.

kan

@egreg No, I don't have any.

Well, let me set it up afresh then.

egreg

@kan You might want to try the 3.0 preview version

kan

@egreg That's what I previously installed too...

@egreg I trashed the icon from the application folder what else?

egreg

@kan That might explain the bad behavior.

kan

@egreg Hmm?

egreg

14:24

@kan If you still have the .dmg file, open it and copy Aquamacs to /Applications

kan

@egreg Confusing. :(

I don't have it.

How do I get rid of emacs first?

Going for dinner. BB after an hour.

egreg

@kan Download it again.

Paulo Cereda

14:46

@egreg I usually suggest AppCleaner (I guess it's this one) for newbies to get rid of programs in Mac because it usually removes the preferences as well. :)

kan

All works now! Great!

However, preview though...

So, no forward and inverse search.

@egreg So, how to setup skim?

I already have it installed.

egreg

@kan Let me check

kan

@egreg Sure!

egreg

15:07

@kan See this one

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Q: Aquamac AucTeX should open PDF in external viewer, not render it in Emacs buffer

I use AucTeX in my Mac Emacs, which is Aquamac 23.1. Typically in AucTeX, when I type C-c C-c it runs pdflatex, then C-c C-c again and it opens it in a PDF viewer. But in this Aquamac emacs version, it renders the PDF right in the emacs buffer. How can I change that? I just want it to open the ...

pdftex emacs auctex

kan

@egreg Hah, I checked but slightly unfortunately, the answer refers to a older version of amacs! Let me see again...

Marco Daniel

Hello English gurus :-) -- Is "closed-out" nearly the same as "aborted"?

kan

@egreg Done!!!!

Thank you!!

Stephan Lehmke

@MarcoDaniel Never heard of it - so at least to non-native speakers, the meaning might be unclear.

Marco Daniel

15:47

@StephanLehmke Indeed. I had the same issue and answered the example question wrong :-(

David Carlisle

16:01

@MarcoDaniel not really, but I'd never use it I supect it is American (and without a hyphen) idioms.thefreedictionary.com/close+out

Marco Daniel

:1263599 Thanks. This explanation helps me. Normally I am using dict.cc ;-)

David Carlisle

@Canageek competition ruling: can I update my code, I was sad my tree got squashed so I have re-expressed the run lengths base 26 instead of base 10 to keep the character count within limit. (same output)

David Carlisle

17:23

I was quicker (and remarkably longer) than @egreg:-)

egreg

@DavidCarlisle I was adding the example. ;-)

David Carlisle

@egreg well I knew you'd answer as it was just a matter of adding % (at the start of a line for a change.

egreg

@DavidCarlisle Of course my answer is conceptually better. :P

David Carlisle

@egreg of course.

Stiff Jokes

17:45

Hi everybody \ldots

egreg

18:20

@StiffJokes Hi!

Paulo Cereda

19:31

quack

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda A Duck!

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright :)

@Joseph: I'll probably ressurrect my PS3 for this holiday. :)

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda :-)

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright But I still have Rayman Legends for the Wii U too. :)

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda No Rayman Legends yet: am still on Ico

Paulo Cereda

19:35

@JosephWright Cool. :)

David Carlisle

19:46

@egreg but sadly not endorsed with a tick.

Joseph Wright

@JosephWright there was a reason I derived \uspace from \xspace instead to using it. Retested in my example and it solves none of the issues I still have, while it eliminates what I tried and succeeded to achieve. — Carlos Eugenio Thompson Pinzón 5 mins ago

Anyone else wonder what the point is here: xspace already has to work hard to get things 'right', and siunitx works really hard to do units properly

Paulo Cereda

20:32

Oh no, I'm out of HDMI ports in my TV! Damn you highdef stuff!

Paulo Cereda

20:52

I need another TV.

topskip

@PauloCereda I don't even have one TV

Paulo Cereda

@topskip Wanna buy mine? :) Runs low on HDMI ports though. :)

topskip

@PauloCereda I would spend way too much time watching TV

Paulo Cereda

@topskip You could run TeX on your TV. :)

I'm one step to run TeX on my Wii. :)

topskip

@PauloCereda I can run TeX on my notebook :)

Paulo Cereda

20:56

@topskip Boo. :)

Henri Menke

Good evening everybody (at least those of you in UTC+1). Does anyone remember the name of the package, which fixes the spacing around math delimiters scaled with \left and \right. I know it is there, but I can't remember the name.

topskip

we should make tex.tv, a television channel that just sends videos of people typesetting beautiful documents

6

Paulo Cereda

@topskip <3

topskip

and cursing LaTeX because there are errors like you can't use \relax after the (or something similar)

Paulo Cereda

@topskip that's dirty talk. Only 18+. :)

Johannes_B

20:59

@topskip Why am I afraid of this? The name could attract other people.

topskip

@PauloCereda And inbetween there are ads for emacs, vi and other editors

Paulo Cereda

@topskip yay! And ducks!

topskip

.... or David can show the superpower of tabularx

Johannes_B

@topskip There are more editors?

;-)

topskip

More than sublime text? No

Paulo Cereda

21:00

@topskip David could host a show!

We have subject for six months: explain xii.tex. :)

topskip

@PauloCereda And @Paulo has the interview corner (Late night show with @Paulo)

Paulo Cereda

@topskip ooh with toast!

topskip

@PauloCereda And after 10p.m. we have the hardcore TeX session, no LaTeX allowed, just 'naked' TeX

Johannes_B

@topskip :-D

topskip

(hope I don't get flagged for that comment)

Paulo Cereda

21:02

@topskip ooh!

topskip

The perfect time for an \expandafter...

or now \relax a bit and go to sleep.

Johannes_B

I like the idea of TeX.tv

Paulo Cereda

@cgnieder should have a show about music and TeX.

topskip

... and Bruno explaining how to optimize macros

Paulo Cereda

@topskip 18+ too. :)

cgnieder

21:05

@HenriMenke probably ctan.org/pkg/mleftright

Johannes_B

And what is sports supposed to be like?

topskip

And during the morning time (children's time), I'll have a show "more fun with nodelists"

Johannes_B

A little vi golf?

cgnieder

@PauloCereda :) I should make music with TeX!

Paulo Cereda

@Johannes_B @egreg, @David, @Joseph, @Nicola, @Alan and I could host the sports show.

90% cricket.

topskip

21:06

Typesetting the resulting tables

Paulo Cereda

Then later on, we have another show explaining the cricket explanation.

topskip

... with \midrule and such

Johannes_B

@PauloCereda :-)

Henri Menke

@cgnieder Perfect! That's it. Thank you very much.

topskip

And we need Psmith coming between shows and saying stupid things :)

Paulo Cereda

21:07

Of course, egreg and I would try to talk about football, but @David will force us to debate cricket. :)

@topskip I can arrange that. :)

topskip

When we have 24 hours of show, we can use \loop\show\repeat

live tv from all the conferences, of course

I see, there is enough stuff to fill a complete tv channel

Johannes_B

I like the idea, keep on dreaming. But my battery is dying, so: Bye guys

nobody even mentioned pstricks or tikz

topskip

@Johannes_B I hope your computer's battery.

Johannes_B

Yes, my computer's battery ;-)

topskip

good, I was worried:)

Yes: reading time. Herbert reads one of his book every day at noon.

At a fireplace with a slow, deep voice...

Paulo Cereda

21:15

@topskip This would be amazing. :)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda You know you wanted to ask the score so far in the Perth test:

Australia 	326-6
England 	Yet to bat

@JosephWright vvv

@cgnieder quite. Now who do we know on the latex3 team who we could blame. — David Carlisle 1 min ago

cgnieder

@DavidCarlisle :D

David Carlisle

21:37

@cgnieder but I just realised it's not our version, so I'm posting a fix now.

cgnieder

@DavidCarlisle So it's a real bug? :)

David Carlisle

@cgnieder yes:-)

egreg

21:56

@DavidCarlisle They're running, aren't they?

Paulo Cereda

22:39

@percusse: sir! <3

percusse

@PauloCereda Aloha!

No starred cat videos? What have you been discussing all these times?

tohecz

23:10

Evening, everybody!

Paulo Cereda

►

tohecz

@StephanLehmke I was just going to give a bounty to Bruno, only to see that you obviously already plan to do so! :)

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$TeX - LaTeX$ TeX, LaTeX and Friends