Should MWE be deprecated and change to MCVE as explained in the following?

Too many terms that are almost identical.

@TheShortestMustacheTheorem oh please do make it MRE as the tag says, that would be such a cool homonym!

@TheShortestMustacheTheorem Once I was insulted by a user after I asked them to post an MWE. They said that if their code gave an error, how they can post a "working" example. The words are important.

@CarLaTeX that's why some tend to then phrase it as "minimal (non-)working example".

@Skillmon right!

I propose my own term: Minimal Observable Sample (MOS). :-)

@TheShortestMustacheTheorem I almost never use an acronym anyway and simply ask for "a complete example that demonstrates the problem"

@TheShortestMustacheTheorem 'MWE' has been used for ever in the TeX community: well before TeX-sx, it was standard on comp.text.tex

@CarLaTeX But maybe you aren't asking for a minimal example that works, but rather a minimal example you can work with. I'd say it's not for the users benefit (that it works) but rather for our benefit (that we can work with it). Or maybe I've just been reading too much PoC||GTFO :p

@Plergux For me it's clear, for them it wasn't

@CarLaTeX "working" even if prefixed by (non-) isn't really clear in this context. That's why I ask for "an example that shows the problem"

@CarLaTeX Fair enough, but there are so many things that are blurry in both direction. People post examples with floats and complain that they float (should be obvious, right?), and then they post all their preamble because they know what stuff is relevant but we don't. Then again, @DavidCarlisle is probably right (as he usually is) in that acronyms are too vague most of the time.

@DavidCarlisle That's much more clear

@PauloCereda /hug

@Plergux Yes, he is, except when he talks about food

@CarLaTeX Well obviously British people don't have any say in food. :p (says the one who eats spaghetti with potatoes XD)

@Plergux :D

@CarLaTeX what's wrong with duck?

@DavidCarlisle Nothing, I was referring to pineapple pizza

@Plergux Ah, but "pasta e patate" is a Naple's staple (and yummi) ricette.giallozafferano.it/Pasta-e-patate.html

@CarLaTeX well being Italian you can't be expected to appreciate great American inventions such as Pizza.

@Rmano Really? I've never met anyone who didn't put up a weird face when I talked about spaghetti and potatoes. Turns out my mom was more gourmet than I thought XD

@Plergux Well, pasta and potatoes are cheap food, so it was clear that somebody would have tried to mix them. There are several variations across most of (mainly south of) Italy.

@Rmano True :) It's fairly telling that quite many of the worlds "national dishes" or similar started out as "the only thing they had to eat" :p

@Plergux the swiss have Älplermagronen: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Älplermagronen

@Riboswitch making the png have a transparent layer can't be done by tex but if it is transparent including it in latex will preserve that

@DavidCarlisle You mean, that I could set it myself transparent and then just put it on the page and laTex will put the rest in the foreground?

@Riboswitch have a look at ctan.org/pkg/background

@Skillmon Unfortunately there is a user who makes edits just to replace M(N)WE with MWE even tough the code certainly is not working :(

@Riboswitch latex just places things in the order that they are placed so if you place the image first then the text it is in the background (then transparency only matters if you are printing on coloured paper)

@Riboswitch Not sure if I understand you correctly, but maybe you want to look at tikz, this makes it easy to position things with regard to the page and you can include images with an opacity of your choice -- that is if you just need the image to be less colourful and not really transparent. (of course I also need to mention picture mode or @DavidCarlisle will complain)

@samcarter_looks_forward_TUG'21 Yeha I see that this might be possible with tikz but I haven't used it before :x I will see if I can make it work

@UlrikeFischer :D We'd eat macaroni-soup (which is basically pasta boiled in milk) which, I realise from reading up on the pasta should actually be called cornetti-soup. :p

@Riboswitch try

\documentclass{article}

\usepackage{tikz}

\begin{document}
\begin{tikzpicture}[remember picture, overlay]
\node[opacity=0.1] at (current page.center) {\includegraphics[height=\paperheight]{example-grid-100x100bp}};
\end{tikzpicture}

\Huge TEST

\end{document}

@DavidCarlisle and @JosephWright OK. Thank you. :-)

@samcarter_looks_forward_TUG'21 It works great, thank you very much!

@Riboswitch You're welcome!

Xournal++ going down very well at work

@DavidCarlisle do you know why the \@minipagetrue trick fails in longtable?

@JosephWright It's really nice, and the fact that is multiplatform is a plus. A pity that the Android version is a bit stalled...

@UlrikeFischer because longtable has no \if@minipage test?

@Rmano Being free is a plus :)

@JosephWright Yep, also ;-)

@Rmano On Windows, PDF Annotator is probably the best (but commercial) - various iPad tools got mentioned, but they are of course iOS specific

@DavidCarlisle why not? Is there a technical reason?

@UlrikeFischer er pass, because I didn't think of adding a test because using longtable in a minipage sounds wrong?

@DavidCarlisle ;-).

@UlrikeFischer has this just come up on site?

@DavidCarlisle there is a question about longtabu and enumerate and hyperref list, so I made a fast check about how longtable handles it.

@UlrikeFischer yes just found it, there is a starred package mention here that might be relevant

@UlrikeFischer oh now I'm confused, that's setting it to true inside a p column so that should be same in longtable as tabular I'd guess

@DavidCarlisle well with longtabu the problem is the destination set by hyperref (you get it with tabular too), but as long as the example uses tabu I won't try to answer this.

@DavidCarlisle it isn't, that was my question:

\documentclass{article}

\usepackage{longtable}

\begin{document}

\begin{longtable}{lp{10cm}}
Dummy &\csname @minipagetrue\endcsname
       \begin{enumerate}
       \item blub
       \end{enumerate}
\end{longtable}

\begin{tabular}{lp{10cm}}
Dummy &\csname @minipagetrue\endcsname
       \begin{enumerate}
       \item blub
       \end{enumerate}
\end{tabular}

\end{document}

@UlrikeFischer it's probably better to use an enumitem compressed link form, but I'll look in a bit. really longtable doesn't do anything (much) inside the table cells.

@PhelypeOleinik @DavidCarlisle @MarcelKrüger @egreg would it work for you to postpone the meeting to tomorrow same time?

@UlrikeFischer Works for me.

@UlrikeFischer yes

@DavidCarlisle it would save you from note taking ;-)

@UlrikeFischer OK

@UlrikeFischer im not doing any more note taking until @JosephWright buys me a pen tablet so I can use that xournal thing

@JosephWright got socks I got an insulated coffee lid mug thing.

@DavidCarlisle The common theme seems to be "keep things warm"

@DavidCarlisle longtable inserts a strut in \LT@startpbox.

@UlrikeFischer yes but classic tabular did as well but adjusted in array package, maybe something changed, can't check now

@DavidCarlisle I was in Apple yesterday looking at iPads ...

@DavidCarlisle I have a nice simple one :)

@UlrikeFischer I'd say that is an incorrect feature

@DavidCarlisle ;-).

@UlrikeFischer Yes

@PhelypeOleinik good, I guess you saw the mail, it is now tomorrow

@UlrikeFischer Good, because I just woke up and would have to skip breakfast today ;-)

@PhelypeOleinik :)

@PhelypeOleinik Be glad I have a 'work' meeting

@PhelypeOleinik RSC Degree Accrediation

@JosephWright :)

@JosephWright Sounds fun

@PhelypeOleinik Oh yes - two hours

@JosephWright Enjoy!

@PhelypeOleinik do you know that your phone is visiting the chat when you sleep? The status constantly said "seen 10s ago" ;-)

@UlrikeFischer I don't have chat open on my phone though...

@UlrikeFischer I do have it open on a tab in my browser basically all the time, so maybe it registers being open as “seen”

I used to supress the page numbering in the mainfaile that holds all the \import{./}{texfile.tex} commands, but when the imported files are longer than 1 page, the first page gets a page numbering :/

Are we now supposed to just use \ExplSyntaxOn (no packages required) instead of loading xparse if all we want is the syntax \NewDocumentCommand{\x}{ m }{}? (tex.stackexchange.com/questions/600655/…)

@musarithmia You can use \NewDocumentCommand now without any package (and unless you use expl3 commands in the body you don't need \ExplSyntaxOn either).

@Riboswitch do you change the page style or just the current page style? Please make a minimal working example

@UlrikeFischer wow! so all the xparse commands are now part of the "kernel"? (or the latex2e format? sorry, I'm a little rusty on the terms)

@musarithmia basically yes. For a few of the argument types you still have to load xparse as they will not be supported by the kernel, see 1.8 Backwards Compatibility in the docu.

@UlrikeFischer Thanks! Which docs?

@UlrikeFischer never mind, found it: latex-project.org/news/latex2e-news/ltnews32.pdf

Typical experiment in the the chemistry department:

@JosephWright @DavidCarlisle Please I wonder: learnlatex seems not to cover babel/polyglossia. Is that intentional?

@yo' babel is typically mentioned in the "language lessons", e.g. learnlatex.org/de/language-01

@yo' As this is highly language-specific, as @UlrikeFischer says, that's where we put it

@UlrikeFischer yeah, but that doesn't cover languages that don't have a mutation of the site :(

@DavidCarlisle this gives a page not found learnlatex.org/de/lesson-06.md

@UlrikeFischer Odd

@JosephWright well the md at the end of the link is odd.

@yo' The problem is what do you say? Some languages need basically nothing of babel, some need it, some need .. something else (Japanese, for example) - you can't cover it in one lesson written 'for everyone';

@JosephWright good point

@yo' babel is also mentioned in lesson 6.

@UlrikeFischer ah cool, more-06 is probably what I was looking for! Thanks!

@yo' New ideas of course welcome, but it's hard to not cofuse users ...

@JosephWright yeah I get it. I will keep this in mind when collecting feedback in Overleaf :) (it's mostly our own feedback, the users quite commonly don't have much of a clue when it comes to LaTeX complications)

@UlrikeFischer odd it's in git, I'll force a rebuild

@DavidCarlisle I think the link is wrong, it has an md at the end. (I found it on the german language page)

@UlrikeFischer ah

        modified:   de/language-01.md
        modified:   de/lesson-02.md

@UlrikeFischer ^^

@UlrikeFischer there are some in other languages too

@DavidCarlisle Did you see the question on the main site? It looks as if tabu is really broken.

@UlrikeFischer This also came up yesterday because some problems with rmarkdown packages

github.com/haozhu233/kableExtra/issues/625

If something is defined as a macro, is there any problem with turning it into an environment using \renewenvironment? It seems to work, but are there any unexpected consequences I might encounter?

@UlrikeFischer no been in work calls (the longtabu one?, I just looked earlier at your loingtable version)

@DavidCarlisle see tex.stackexchange.com/q/600724/2388

@UlrikeFischer I hardly changed anything in lt, they can presumably load the \usepackage{longtable}[=4.13] before tabu

@UlrikeFischer yes that works

@DavidCarlisle nearly, I had to use v4.13 ;-). But yes it works.

@UlrikeFischer I should never have believed the OP: it fails in 4.14 (I was surprised it failed in 4.16 as only change there was writing the toc to the right file) so that's the re-organisation to coe with floats on the same page, if that breaks tabu so be it

@DavidCarlisle never believe the OP ;-)

@UlrikeFischer quite so.

@samcarter_looks_forward_TUG'21 wow, so glad he gets some medals for this :(

@texdr.aft I'm replying over a day late, but it's great that you're interested in translation of WEB to HTML! I know two others who may be interested too (I briefly toyed with it a couple of years ago but didn't make much progress…), so it may be useful to discuss this together (tex.stackexchange.com/questions/502829/…) — could you share your email address (or GitHub account)?

:58299001 this seems to work:\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{longtable}
\usepackage{tabu}%
\makeatletter
\def\tabuendlongtrial{%
    \LT@echunk  \global\setbox\LT@gbox \hbox{\unhbox\LT@gbox}\kern\wd\LT@gbox
                \LT@get@widths
}%

\makeatother

\begin{document}
\begin{longtabu}  {llX}
a & b & c\\
\end{longtabu}
\end{document}

I only exchanged \@ne by \LT@gbox

@ShreevatsaR GitHub account: github.com/texdraft (although I don't really have anything there at the moment)

@DavidCarlisle ^^ (I think the ping above didn't work)

@ShreevatsaR The main issues I am running into are: (1) How to get the CSS working (see my recent post on StackOverflow; (2) how to handle translating arbitrary TeX code to HTML… obviously this is impossible in the general case, but for the restricted set of WEB programs it should be feasible to do it without fully simulating TeX; and (3) actually implementing the thing!

@texdr.aft I didn't even get as far as worrying about HTML markup; I underestimated the last thing :D

@texdr.aft It seems that to create a "discussion" on GitHub I have to create a new repository etc, will do it in a bit. Thanks!

@UlrikeFischer ah good spot

@UlrikeFischer I'm in a zoom call, but you could put that in an issue at the tabu repo?

Did someone notice that the teddy bear in l3pdffield-checkbox.pdf is not visible in evince and okular any more? I'm quite sure that it was displayed correctly in one, if not both, of the programs a few weeks ago ...

@DavidCarlisle done.

@UlrikeFischer thanks

@AndreasMatthias well I made a number of changes in the code in the last update, but it works fine on windows.

@UlrikeFischer I can see it with foxit and pdfxchange, but not with evince any more.

@UlrikeFischer I just tried to copy the teady bear, but the only viewer that displays the copied teady bear is ghostscript (no joke).

@AndreasMatthias well I wouldn't expect it to be copyable, I mean it is not in the page stream, it is only in an appearance.

@UlrikeFischer I managed to copy the AP streams (that's probably the reason, ghostscript displays it at all), but I make a mistake in copying the /Fields.

@AndreasMatthias ah, you mean with your code, not per copy&paste ;-). Does something happen if you click on the (invisible) bear? Is there anything at all?

@UlrikeFischer Since some viewers do not display the teady bear I thought (was hoping) that my code was correct and it was just a display thingy. But now I see that I make a mistake with the button, that is the parent of the /Widget annotation. That's why the teddy is not clickable. :-(

Contrary to popular belief, this day in 1772 was the occasion of the first shot in the American Revolution, when the citizens of the Rhode Island colony grounded and burned the British revenue ship, the Gaspee, on a shoal in Narragansett Bay. Rhode Island, ornery as always, was the last to ratify the U.S. Constitution, holding out for the addition of the Bill of Rights (the first 10 amendments). Irrelevant to TeX, of course, but one of the reasons I'm happy to live in Rhode Island.

@barbarabeeton Given the audience in this room, it's unlikely we have a popular belief about this :)

@AlanMunn -- True enough, but there are one or two people who can be depended upon to complain about the colonists. I just like to annoy them.

@AlanMunn -- On another topic, have you any ideas about when Canada might feel secure enough to let vaccinated U.S. citizens across the border for a friendly visit?

@barbarabeeton On a similar kind of historical note, I'm happy that Michigan was the first state to ban the death penalty for murder (1847) and has never executed anyone since becoming a state.

@barbarabeeton It's being debated at the moment. There's lots of pressure to allow it (and for good reason) but I haven't been following the discussion very closely.

@AlanMunn -- That's certainly something to be proud of.

@barbarabeeton And I mistyped the year (1847 not 1947)

@barbarabeeton What is the popular belief, btw?

@AlanMunn -- Impressive. And regarding the Canada/U.S. border, I hope they let marooned Canadian citizens back in too.

@barbarabeeton Yes, I would like that too.

@AlanMunn -- Most U.S. history books cite April 19, the ruckus in Concord and Lexington, Massachusetts. (Or possibly the Boston Tea Party. That, in turn, affects the U.S. import duty schedule -- "there is no tax on tea.")

@barbarabeeton Ok. I figured it would be something Mass related. So the issue is "first shot" vs "first organized grumpiness"? :)

@AlanMunn -- That's probably a fair way of putting it, although the organizer of the boats that took on the Gaspee was actually a local sheriff, and he had a justifiable complaint about the behavior of the captain of the Gaspee.

@barbarabeeton I took a look a the Wikipedia entries. It cites the battles at Lexington and Concord as the start of the revolution, and the Gaspee affair (as it calls it) as "the first acts of violent uprising against the British crown's authority".

@AlanMunn -- Yup.. That's what I said. Revisionist history. I may not be a Rhode Island native, but it's a fine weird place to adopt. (I actually grew up in Maryland, which is weird in its own way.)

@barbarabeeton I don't really know what constitutes the beginning of such things. Historians presumably have some criteria? Or maybe they don't. The Gaspee affair does seem pretty important though, from the description. (First I've heard of it though) But I never learned any American history at all other than things related to the war of 1812.

@AlanMunn -- And the War of 1812 has just gotten a new reason for notoriety, namely January 6. (The "original" was pretty thoroughly covered in history courses in Maryland schools.) Did you learn about the fort that was ever so carefully built on the wrong side of the U.S./Canada border?

@UlrikeFischer Is it somehow possible to use \pdfmanagement_add from Lua level (not TeX macro level)? I'd like to add some /Fields.

@AndreasMatthias hm, fields are collected in a seq and pushed out at the end of the document, so pure lua would be difficult. Why can't you simply do a tex.print and call \pdfmanagement_add?

@AndreasMatthias But it wouldn't be impossible as adding a field is really not more than adding an entry to seq.

@barbarabeeton Yes, I think this was discussed here before.

@UlrikeFischer Oh yes, this could work.

@barbarabeeton The war of 1812 is also the birth of Canadian anti-Americanism. The Americans at the time expected to be hailed as liberators by the Canadians, freeing them from the British. Not too surprisingly this wasn't how they were received. The American press at the time has a rhetoric surprisingly similar to that around the "liberation" of Iraq nearly two centuries later.

@barbarabeeton Maybe anti-Americanism is too strong, but more the birth of the Canadian identity defined as being not American, which still persists to this day.

@UlrikeFischer Ok, this works. Sometimes it is so easy. ;) Thanks.

@AlanMunn -- Being "not American" is okay. it's simply "being Canadian". I've never been treated unkindly, and even my dreadful French accent is tolerated in Quebec. (To my great surprise, it was even tolerated in Paris! But I didn't try to be pushy, so maybe that makes a difference.) In every part of Canada I've visited, I've been made to feel welcome, and I look forward to visiting more places when the border opens. In my experience, Canada is eminently civilized.

@barbarabeeton Yes, I think that definitely true.

do you gurus just read source2e from start to finish

@tsj As light bedtime reading? Some people here wrote lots of it, so they probably don't have to. :)

@tsj -- Depends on your definition of "guru". If I want to check something, I look for a relevant command and follow where it leads.

@tsj I read every line originally and checked it all typeset with no overfull boxes (a rule we have let slip in recent years:-) It used to take hours to typeset:-)

@AlanMunn it's easier to read latex.ltx, none of those distracting comments.

@DavidCarlisle So all this "I never read documentation" is simply a lie. :)

@AlanMunn I read every line of the source and read the log for overfull box warnings, I'm not sure i read the pdf much.

@DavidCarlisle Fair enough. Your unsullied reputation is intact then.