@JosephWright I quickly wrote a shell script which determines the transitive closure of a document from the output of the -recorder option. It has to be run in the same directory as the document to produce meaningful output.

gist.github.com/hmenke/55d9f3ac39fd5845d1aac1d16ef8efdd

That should be helpful for your next minimal TeX Live installation.

@HenriMenke ooh very nice!

@HenriMenke awk, I never really got on with awk, perl arrived just as I was finding I needed more than sed:-)

@egreg as I seem to have converted someone from fp to xfp, is the new extended documentation already available somewhere?

@barbarabeeton ooh cappys twitter.com/DickKingSmith/status/1294157938840543232

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@PauloCereda echo brezkfzst | awk '{gsub(/z/, "a")}; 1'

@DavidCarlisle oh no

@DavidCarlisle I've removed awk from the script. It's actually not necessary.

@HenriMenke Am I OK to mail you about CTAN? I think it's something that doesn't necessarily fit the chat format

@JosephWright Of course. You don't have to ask whether you can send me a message.

@HenriMenke Was asking as it moves the discussion from here so cuts out others, at least in principle; I suspect I'll CC the obvious people anyway, though

@HenriMenke Will be a bit later today, probably over my lunch

@JosephWright Then I'll read it earliest tomorrow afternoon (~15:00 NZST).

@JosephWright @HenriMenke would be okay if the Island could follow the thread? We islanders want to get something done in package management/TL/CTAN...

@HenriMenke Fine with me :)

@PauloCereda I'll draft something later and circulate to the obvious people

@JosephWright ooh we are obvious people then

(")>/

\<(")

\(")>/

@JosephWright @HenriMenke don't forget the consider how to communicate changes and coordinate people. Ctan is used by many and they are not sitting around waiting for messages what new useful features are there, but mostly want stuff to work like always and complain if something changes. I mean look how difficult it already is to split a package like oberdiek ...

@UlrikeFischer can I answer "Blame Ulrike" ? tex.stackexchange.com/questions/558617/…

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@UlrikeFischer Don't worry, I'll try to include that area

@UlrikeFischer You;ll be on my CC list

@JosephWright ooh obvious people

@DavidCarlisle I already commented ;-)

@UlrikeFischer I answered without blaming you as I'm not mean

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@DavidCarlisle well the problem is not the order, you get the same warning with \usepackage[pdftitle=abc]{hyperref-test}. The problem is that the driver (which would activated unicode) isn't loaded yet.

@UlrikeFischer yes I was just wondering about that, I should have stuck with my first suggested answer. If we made unicode the only possibility the problem would go away.....

@DavidCarlisle But I think we can simply remove the warning and only leave the \kvsetkeys{Hyp}{unicode}, and improve the documentation a bit that this is the default for the unicode engines (or do we dare?)

@UlrikeFischer yes making it the default and removing the warning for unicode engines seems safe and sensible, tempted to do same for pdftex (but perhaps wait for the generic l3 backend for that last step)

@DavidCarlisle it is already the default, only the driver is loaded to late to know this when the pdftitle key is processed.

@UlrikeFischer yes that's why I say it's safe in that case

@DavidCarlisle We really should just make it all unicode

@UlrikeFischer I dare :)

@PauloCereda Esse é um bom plano

@DavidCarlisle quack <3

boo!

@yo' ooh <3

Regarding the shipout/background hooks and similar, are the additions from the picture package considered to be added as default? Right now the manual just says that use can use \put(x,y){stuff} and that here (0,0) is at the upper left and that x,y should be in terms of \unitlength=1pt.

I wanted to palce comething in the lower left hand corner but cannot just use \put(0,-\paperheight){stuff} which is just annoying.

@daleif there was an action item to accept lengths as in picture package, let me check where that got to...

@DavidCarlisle ACTION: David I think [but Johannes is doing the minutes now ;)]

@JosephWright oi. But no gh issue that I can see?

@DavidCarlisle I think not: was just a team minutes item

@JosephWright Team meeting minutes 16th July 2020

@JosephWright I'll raise on list

My scout group is famous -- one of our units has a world scouting photo of the week! instagram.com/p/CD3M_F-lrCD

@DavidCarlisle super. I wanted to tryk the new hook instead of of my goto: eso-pic for these things (I'm measuring a PDF someone made in Word, to make my own version of it)

@DavidCarlisle we have one in the internal repo (88)

@UlrikeFischer I thought there was an issue somewhere:-)

@DavidCarlisle it is sometimes a bit difficult to keep track where everything is ;-)

@yo' WOO

@JosephWright if you want to try github.com/latex3/hyperref/tree/test-unicode

@JosephWright @DavidCarlisle naturally lots of test failures, but all as expected (part due to the change to unicode, in part because of latex changes in font numbers).

@UlrikeFischer Ok so keep the option but just default to true that sounds reasonable (and better rollback than if we simply removed the legacy encoding support)

@DavidCarlisle yes, I think a small not to drastic step first is better ;-)

@UlrikeFischer then when everyone is feeling safe and secure you swoop down on them with your sword and rip out all the backends and insert l3 code?

@daleif would you run into problems, if \addcontentsline would add an additional empty brace group at the end like here chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/54980124#54980124?

@DavidCarlisle ;-). Well most of the code here is not in the backends but in hyperref itself: all the stuff that do character conversion and so on. Getting rid of it and stick to unicode would shorten this.

@UlrikeFischer as far as I can see memoir only uses \addcontentsline we don't change it. Though some of the stuff we add to its arguments can be a bit complex

What is that extra argument going to be used for?

@daleif nothing, it is only there so that contentsline can always grab four argument if it wants, regardless if the toc was created with active hyperref or not. E.g. currently hyperref has to suppress the loading of the toc if it was created by a document without hyperref to avoid errors, if there were an empty argument it would be easier, it would "only" complain about missing destination names.

@daleif but actual changes in hyperref will only be possible later, as a first step we need to ensure that the most important packages writes \contentsline-lines with four arguments -- and this has to start with latex.

@UlrikeFischer cool. didn't hyperref make it use 5 args?

@daleif no, three latex, four hyperref. But this is already confusing enough ;-)

@daleif Could you give a look at my claim about mathtools in tex.stackexchange.com/a/558613/82917 ? I hope I did not misunderstood anything...

@JosephWright @barbarabeeton any comments on the old or new English at github.com/learnlatex/learnlatex.github.io/issues/87 ?

@DavidCarlisle perhaps "that can be used as subterm inside a larger display"?

@UlrikeFischer yes edited the comment thanks

@campa I'll mark it for later, need to do other stuff for a few hours.

@daleif Sure, thanks!

@campa as far as I can see the mathtools/mhsetup is equivalent to the \new@ifnextchar from ams, just converted to the mhsetup syntax.

@daleif Thx. I thought so but I wanted to be sure.

@campa yo're welcome

Man, whose shipout/background and shipout/foreground are soo useful. I have a tikz grid (overlay, remember picture) a design has to match. If I have the grid in say\helpergrid, then \AddToHook{shipout/foreground}{\put(0,0){\helpergrid}} puts it on top of all pages. So nice

@daleif ;-). But to say the truth they aren't so different to the eso-pic hooks.

@UlrikeFischer that is what I normally use. This is just more straight forward

Having these in the kernel instead of use package X, Y, Z is better in the long run. (hmm, do we end up like context? Isn't everything in the kernel in context? or at least it might have used to)

I'm off, laters.....

@daleif Yes, it is. And that's the nice thing about it ;)

@HenriMenke love the --rollback flag!

@PauloCereda -- a plethora of cappies! That's what comes of having permeable hedgerows rather than fences around one's back yard, at least in some locations.

@barbarabeeton ooh :)

@yo' -- Cool! I sure hope it didn't start to rain!

@UlrikeFischer -- Having fought with this too many times, I think your idea i(five arguments in \addtocline) s a good one.

@DavidCarlisle -- I think the problem may be "subterm". I understand it in context, but it's not a word I'd think to use. Someone has suggested "sub-formula", which may be better. Another possibility is "component". I'll keep thinking. (Sorry to be so late on the scene; medical appointment took up much of the morning, and then editing the TUG proceedings.)

@barbarabeeton thanks for the comments, at least the French translator now was happy to translate but I can still re-word the English version if it can be clearer. Hope the appointment went well.

@DavidCarlisle -- I guess I should look at the French (or German) to see how they describe it. As for the appointment, we survived; the results will take a few days.

@barbarabeeton the french is at the gutenberg fork but I don't think he has updated since the discussion in the issue gutenberg.github.io/learnlatex.github.io/fr/more-10 it still says (traduction en->fr à revoir)

@DavidCarlisle -- Okay, I'll try to look later. We're about to go find something to eat.

@barbarabeeton Je recommande le canard

@DavidCarlisle -- We're going to a pub-style Japanese fusion place, where I can get good fish and Thai iced tea. (It's too hot for anything alcoholic for me, although their nigori sake is excellent.)

@DavidCarlisle should we add a few aircraft and ducks to the testsuite?

@UlrikeFischer er well I hmm have a test file that is er based on ..

@UlrikeFischer -- You do know that there's a type of aircraft wing called a "canard"? Here's a nice picture: airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/rutan-varieze/…

@DavidCarlisle you make me curious ;-) Is it locally or in git?

@UlrikeFischer vvv

\documentclass{article}

\begin{document}
\newlength\zzz
\setlength\zzz{100pt}
\begin{picture}(200,\zzz)
\put(30,40){\line(1,0){150pt}}
\put(30,40){\line(0,1){60}}
\put(30,\zzz){\line(1,0){20}}
\put(50,\zzz){\line(1,-4){10}}
\put(60,60){\line(1,0){50pt+50pt}}
\put(160,60){\line(1,-1){20}}
\put(\zzz,50){\line(0,-1){80}}
\put(130,50){\line(0,-1){\zzz-20pt}}
\put(\zzz,-30){\line(1,0){30}}
\put(\zzz,61){\line(0,1){49}}
\put(130,61){\line(0,1){49}}
\put(\zzz,\zzz+10pt){\line(1,0){30}}
\end{picture}

@UlrikeFischer local branch, but I was waiting for test suite to finish before pushing, I'll push it now...

@UlrikeFischer * [new branch] picture-lengths -> picture-lengths

@daleif ^^^^^^

@DavidCarlisle worked fine ;-)

@DavidCarlisle and loading picture doesn't explode.

@UlrikeFischer next I plan to do a PR to the pict2e version repo, but not tonight

@DavidCarlisle it works also fine with the shipout hooks: \AddToHook{shipout/background}{\put(0.4\paperwidth,-0.3\paperwidth){\tikz\bear\bearwear;}} ;-)

@UlrikeFischer which was what @daleif wanted earlier apart from the bear of course)

@DavidCarlisle woooo (had to get out of bed to reply, for some reason my old tablet won't let me log into chat). Also apparently should have watched soccer earlier, some Germans seemed to know how to play

@DavidCarlisle it will be very useful in these hooks.

@daleif sorry, sleep well:-)

@DavidCarlisle no worries, the chat alarm is silent so was awake

And basically made the various watermark packages into one liners

@daleif needs a bit more testing, only did it this evening, but plan would be to merge it to the develop branch before a latex-dev release at end of this month for a full latex release in October

@DavidCarlisle great (got the old tablet to chat). Always nice chatting while laying down ;-)

@DavidCarlisle if pict2e is loaded it errors:

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{pict2e}
\begin{document}
\newlength\zzz
\setlength\zzz{100pt}
\begin{picture}(200,\zzz)
\put(30,40){\line(1,0){150pt}}
\end{picture}
\end{document}

@UlrikeFischer yes sure, current state is that current syntax should work if pict2e is loaded (s just numbers) but tomorrow I'll add the same change to the pic2e use of \unitlength so it accepts the same syntax (won't push a PR there though until more testng here)

@DavidCarlisle ah ok.

@UlrikeFischer pict2e doesn't really just add back end code as the original isn't factored for different backends, so it essentially just re-implements the whole thing so by loading the package you lose all the changes

not sure if I should bother with eepic and friends, as long as existing uses work that might be enough.

@DavidCarlisle well if \put(0,-\paperheight) explodes if some package is loaded, then it could be a bit of a problem for package that want e.g. to set a watermark or a grid. But I have no idea how many people actually use eepic etc.

@UlrikeFischer \put at least is safe in eepic and epic

@UlrikeFischer anyone still using xfig :( (remember my donkey) I suppose i'd better test the donkey

@UlrikeFischer still works, that's enough for today:

\documentclass{article}

\setlength{\unitlength}{0.00083333in}
\usepackage{epic}
\begin{document}

\begin{picture}(4974,3714)(0,-10)
\drawline(2037,1362)(1962,12)(2112,1362)
\drawline(1887,2412)(4437,2412)(4437,1437)
    (1887,1437)(837,2262)(462,1812)
    (12,2187)(687,3012)(837,3687)
    (837,3087)(1812,2412)
\drawline(1887,1437)(1512,12)(1962,1437)
\put(687,2637){\circle{150}}
\drawline(4362,1437)(4287,162)(4287,1437)
\drawline(4137,1437)(3987,162)(3987,1437)
\drawline(4437,2412)(4962,1587)
\end{picture}

@DavidCarlisle yes just tried too. That's a relief, all important stuff works ;-)

@DavidCarlisle blush rlog.rgtti.com/2014/06/26/quick-fix-xfig-bug

Using eps export anyway ;-)

@Rmano if you have any (e)pic generated picture envs you could let me test against the new version

@DavidCarlisle I am on a tablet (er, in bed now like @daleif ;-)) but I can generate and send tomorrow morning (00:30 here)

@Rmano yes sure i'm only an hour behind, too late for coding, good night:-)

@DavidCarlisle 'night!