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1:48 AM
Hey, how you're all doing? Came by to say hi and tell you that TeX StackExchange is the best StackExchange. The worse is Chemistry one: a bunch of good for nothing, condescending people. But that was a year and a half ago. Now, after being away for many months, I decided to log in to my StackOverflow account to ask a question, but was surprised to find out I'm banned from asking any: some (or all) of the 13 questions I'd asked since 2018 were supposedly making StackOverflow worse (they hinted).
So remembering my entire experience on StackExchange I realize how good you people actually are, so wanted to say thanks for everything you've done for me (and others).
2
I think that's because TeX StackExchange mostly consists of first-hand experts and developers of TeX system who aren't here only as users but as mods, which is very important. If other StackExchange resouces, like Chemistry and Mathematics, had professors as users and mods, they would've been so much better than they are. I know there are famous developers on StackOverflow who are directly involved in big projects but the resource is so big (covering entire IT industry) that...
they don't pull the shots there, in general.
Very disappointed with StackExchange. What a waste (of something that could definitely be so much better). But, again, there's TeX (thanks God). See you later, friends.
 
 
4 hours later…
6:01 AM
@AlanMunn You mean furry-ous? :p
@LaTeXereXeTaL I think someone may have beat you to it :p youtube.com/channel/UCCDNqvrI9lIVI8zVk3DIWlg
 
 
1 hour later…
7:05 AM
@FrankMittelbach Not a bug:
2 days ago, by Ulrike Fischer
@HenriMenke it is not a bug. It is by design. If you want a specific order you have to setup a rule. Or you will have to use another hook, e.g. \AddToHook{begindocument/end}{\renewcommand\vec{\mathbfit}}.
2 days ago, by David Carlisle
@HenriMenke It isn't a bug, it's a known feature.
 
8:04 AM
@HenriMenke that isn't the same as saying the issue was not being considered or wouldn't result in changes. As you may note your gh issue isn't closed. It was in response to the suggestion you made here that we just made arbitrary untested changes and didn't care about users. This was a known change not a bug, there are reasonable questions you could have asked about whether the judgement was right this case, but that was not the approach you chose to take. Your gh issue was a lot more reasonable
 
@DavidCarlisle Frank's remark above wasn't about the AtBeginDocument business but about the shading issue. See the link from texnician above the comment.
 
@UlrikeFischer well perhaps but our comments were both about the hooks
 
quack
 
8:24 AM
@PauloCereda Morgunmatur
 
@PauloCereda /distinct rabbit sound
 
@DavidCarlisle ooh this one is new oh no
@Skillmon hi mr. rabbit!
@FrankMittelbach Guten Morgen, Frank. :)
 
@PauloCereda gleichfalls, or rather good afternoon I guess
 
@FrankMittelbach oopsie, sorry, my German vocabulary is quite limited. Perhaps I could redeem myself by offering some Schokoladenkuchen. :)
 
@FrankMittelbach Rather "very early morning" or "still nearly night".
 
8:34 AM
@UlrikeFischer ooh hallo, ich bin ein Ente
 
@PauloCereda ein Enterich / ein Erpel
 
@HenriMenke sorry, but you are mixing up statements here. you listed the shading issue and claimed the whole team said it doesn't care about the issue that shading vanished. Which is fundamentally untrue. The problem there was that atbegshi code was moved from a package to the kernel but this way it turned out that it couldn't be used for patching stuff in precisely the same way as before.
 
@PauloCereda I don't think that writing in german can hide you from the resident linguist :-)
 
@UlrikeFischer oh no
@AlexG oh no, it's getting more complicated :)
 
@PauloCereda Almost any noun ending in "e" is feminine.
 
8:40 AM
@AlexG oh
 
@PauloCereda eine Ente (f.)
 
@AlexG Danke. :)
 
@PauloCereda <3
 
@AlexG <3
 
@HenriMenke what you are here referring to is something totally different. It is an design extension that brought change. So yes, it is by design and you encountered an edge case.
Whether that edge case should be caught with a loud warning or otherwise catered is something to discuss, but that doesn't alter the fact that by design code added to hooks added by one package independent of code added by other packages and there is no guaranteed order (unless a rule is being set up). That design was chosen to make it possible to manage such code chunks in better ways then telling users put package A after B but before C etc.
@UlrikeFischer you are right clock goes the other way around ...
 
8:53 AM
@FrankMittelbach the earth ;-)
 
@FrankMittelbach I used to eat on a fancy German restaurant in São Paulo in which the clock had a reversed mechanism, such that \let\clockwise\counterclockwise. :)
 
@DavidCarlisle :D
 
@Plergux hi sheep person!
 
@UlrikeFischer von mir auch night :p
 
9:08 AM
@Plergux Is there a difference between night and day in your region these days?
 
@PauloCereda Hi duck person! And also: you ate "on" a restaurant? :p Do you say that in Brazilian? Cause for example in Icelandic you would say "I always read a little bit on the evenings." Instead of in the evenings like you would in English.:p
 
@Plergux it's probably my poor English...
 
@AlexG Well, depends. These days we have sunrise around 10:30 and sunset around 16:00 (around the winter solstice it's about 11:00 to 15:00). And if it's cloudy it isn't that bright. However, if it's sunny you could have the sun shining right into your face the whole six hours cause it never goes that high. :p
@PauloCereda ah, ok. :)
 
@Plergux I am stupid :)
 
@PauloCereda Pretty sure you're not. Not as knowledgeable and inexperienced in some areas sure, but so are we all. :)
 
9:16 AM
@Plergux baa <3
 
@PauloCereda bra bra! :p
 
@Plergux Oh, then it is not as bad as I expected. (I am livin on 51° N)
 
@Plergux OOH
@Plergux you got mail. :)
 
@AlexG No, I think people tend to exaggerate these things for "exotic effect" :p If you want to check the numbers you can look at almanak.hi.is/solgang.html :)
@PauloCereda YAY!
 
@UlrikeFischer or even that
 
9:40 AM
@AlexG oh, a carrot!
@PauloCereda oh, a carrot!
@PauloCereda oh, a carrot!
 
@Skillmon It was for @Paulo
But you can have one too:<3
 
@AlexG ooh a carrot
 
@AlexG yay, a carrot!
@AlexG <3
 
@Skillmon A big one for you: <0003
 
@AlexG oohh, big carrots! <00003
             \     /
             \\   //
              )\-/(
              /e e\
             ( =Y= )
             /`-!-'\
        ____/ /___\ \
   \   /    ```    ```~~"--.,_
`-._\ /                       `~~"--.,_
----->|                                `~~"--.,_
_.-'/ \                                         ~~"--.,_
   /   \_________________________,,,,....----""""~~~~````
2
@AlexG thank you! ^^^^ (source: ascii.co.uk/art/carrot)
 
9:55 AM
@Skillmon That's really big! Enjoy!
 
if this continue at this pace we will soon have everything for a good stew.
 
@Skillmon OH MY
@UlrikeFischer OOH
 
@UlrikeFischer Onions missing: ô ô ô
 
@UlrikeFischer garlic is missing, too.
 
@Skillmon wasn't there a discussion about vampires yesterday?
 
10:15 AM
@UlrikeFischer and nobody brought garlic? We're doomed!
 
@Skillmon :p (actually, according to my lore you would do just as well with celery :p)
 
10:32 AM
Is there a particular reason you've picked simplekv over keyval, pgfkeys, expkv or l3keys (to my mind the four serious candidates when creating keyvals)? — Joseph Wright ♦ Aug 25 at 20:59
@JosephWright aww <3 ^^^ you consider expkv a serious candidate.
 
@Skillmon we all do <3
 
Updated info
@Skillmon Yes. Each has a clear reason to consider it. All of the other packages are basically vanity projects by comparison
 
@JosephWright but you need to explicitly reload the page if you have visited it recently
 
@Skillmon I look for a good reason to make a recommendation. Here, I can give A solid reason for each suggestion
 
10:47 AM
Mum made biscuits, today is a good day
5
 
@Skillmon I guess kvoptions could also get a mention, as Heiko’s code is always solid. But it’s rather specialist and I think people get the impression options are not the same as general keyvals
 
11:04 AM
Let's see if I remember the etiquette.
But first, I will learn to spell
quack. sheep. pineapple.
Oh, and something about documentation.
 
@LaTeXereXeTaL you can blame @UlrikeFischer for your spelling mistakes!
 
@LaTeXereXeTaL If by “something” you mean “not reading”, then you're graduated in this chat. Congrats!
@DavidCarlisle ^^
 
@Skillmon I've noticed @UlrikeFischer gets blamed for a lot. LOL
@PhelypeOleinik Yes that.
 
@LaTeXereXeTaL that's also part of the etiquette.
@LaTeXereXeTaL also, asking @PauloCereda how his thesis is going is a nice thing to do.
 
Ah so @PauloCereda how's the thesis coming? I didn't even know you were doing one.
I'm up VERY early today for some reason. My first class isn't until 9 am but I got up at 5 am.
 
11:12 AM
@Skillmon oh no
@LaTeXereXeTaL oh no
:)
 
@LaTeXereXeTaL he will never finish his finished thesis :)
 
@Skillmon I knew there was a catch.
@Plergux OMG LOLOLOL
@Plergux I may have been subconsciously thinking about that! LOL
 
@LaTeXereXeTaL :p
 
11:27 AM
Sitting here trying to recall command line git commands......
 
@LaTeXereXeTaL you need git status, git add, git commit, git checkout and git pull
 
@Skillmon git push too
 
@LaTeXereXeTaL see, you don't even need me :)
 
@Skillmon thbbbbbt
 
@Skillmon stash too
 
11:30 AM
@PauloCereda seldomly.
 
@Skillmon not when you work within an organisation :)
git stash && git pull origin master && git stash apply
 
@PauloCereda Didn't know about that one until now.
 
@TeXnician ^^
 
@Skillmon Then we use git in very different ways.
 
@MarcelKrüger since my last few projects were mostly just me and my git, and no collaborative work... :)
 
11:32 AM
<3
 
@PauloCereda or the shorter version git pull --autostash origin master
 
@Skillmon Especially in those I stash a lot to have logical commits and not just a bunch of line changes :D
 
@MarcelKrüger ooh
Also, never add a period in commit messages :D
@TeXnician ^^ <3
@MarcelKrüger Germans are awesome
I wanna be German
 
@PauloCereda We can generalize to chris.beams.io/posts/git-commit ;)
 
@LaTeXereXeTaL the main thing to remember is that git commands don't start with svn
4
 
11:34 AM
@TeXnician or whatthecommit.com :)
 
@DavidCarlisle That's good, because I haven't been using that :D
 
Oct 14 '19 at 11:39, by Paulo Cereda
I wanna be English
 
@DavidCarlisle Can I get my TL install 5¼ floppies by mail?
@DavidCarlisle ooh
 
@PauloCereda Is there a plugin to prefill the commit messages with that?
 
@LaTeXereXeTaL I concentrate so hard on getting that right I also suffer from the related problem of forgetting that SVN commands do not start with git
 
11:36 AM
@MarcelKrüger ooh I think there's a pre-commit plugin that could help
 
@PauloCereda Fun fact: Somewhere in my garage I have a large stack of 5 1/4 floppies containing the contents of a magnetic tape I got from the Bureau des Longitudes in Paris in 1987 or 1988. Someone had to read the tape on a university mainframe and I copied all the data one floppy at a time.
 
@DavidCarlisle These days all my "SVN" commands start with git svn.
 
@DavidCarlisle I never learned SVN and didn't even learn git until this past summer after putting it off for too long.
 
@LaTeXereXeTaL ooh :)
ooh so today we talk about Slovenia
(SVN is their international traffic code)
/sad trombone
 
11:44 AM
@MarcelKrüger on revision 211136 in svn in a repository with tens of thousands of files, it may move to git one day but no one is in a rush to move it:-)
 
Success! Wrote it down on a post-it this time too.
 
yo'
12:22 PM
 
@yo' Rather RIP Flash-in-PDF?
 
yo'
@JosephWright well, yeah. But it renders media9 obsolate, doesn't it?
 
@yo' Yes, or at least it does when people update their PDF viewers: that's a long tail
 
yo'
@JosephWright yeah
 
@PauloCereda git fire github.com/qw3rtman/git-fire
 
12:33 PM
@Rmano ooh
@Rmano gti :)
 
@PauloCereda I should rename this git last-bus, it matches better my usage ;-)
 
@Rmano Oh it's an actual Linux command! Try installing it. :)
 
@PauloCereda wtmp begins Fri Oct 2 16:18:18 2020 ;-)
 
@Rmano ooh :)
@Rmano in this case: r-wos.org/hacks/gti
 
@PauloCereda ah, operator error, I just did last bus ;-)
 
12:40 PM
@Rmano :D
 
12:57 PM
@TeXnician maybe I should work on my workflow :)
 
@yo' , @JosephWright Flash-free playing MP4 is still possible: tex.stackexchange.com/a/516102 But without any means of interactivity (in AR).
2
 
yo'
@AlexG interesting. Not something I wanna deal with at Overleaf support :-) (Not that I'd deal with media9 much, we simply pointed users to the example and told them that debugging media9 is out of our support scope.)
 
1:15 PM
SVG could be another option (at least for presentations): mirrors.ctan.org/macros/latex/contrib/media4svg/example/… Ok, the remote video example needs an update, the URL changed.
 
 
1 hour later…
2:43 PM
@JosephWright Perhaps a mention of "https://www.learnlatex.org" in (latex-project.org/help/links)
 
@PabloGonzálezL ???
@AlexG You are the expert here!
 
@JosephWright <3
 
@AlexG <3
 
@PabloGonzálezL Oh, right, yes, I see
 
@JosephWright Oops, it's hard to quote messages from my cell phone :)
 
2:59 PM
@JosephWright I'm asking you, since you would be aware of recent changes in TeX/LaTeX in the last month or two. I realize it may be no recommended to \usepackage inside a cls file, but humor me. Let's assume the included package uses \AtBeginDocument to change a definition.
Previously, I could in the cls file, issue my own \AtBeginDocument after loading the package to counteract the definitional change of the package. Now, it seems like the package's definitional change takes precidence, even if my \AtBeginDocument occurs in the cls file after loading the package. Does this question make sense, and did something change to bring this about?
 
@StevenB.Segletes Indeed, and it's the topic of live discussion
@StevenB.Segletes There is discussion 'above' here, but for a GitHub issue see github.com/latex3/latex2e/issues/441
 
My workaround is to place my own \AtBeginDocument into its own sty file, and load that after I load the other package.
 
@StevenB.Segletes @HenriMenke raised it three days ago
 
@JosephWright Will it go back to its original state, or will this be the new norm?
 
@StevenB.Segletes I think it would be useful if you could outline the detail either here or (preferably) on GitHub: @FrankMittelbach and @PhelypeOleinik are trying to find a way to balance the desire to have improved behaviour for ordering packages with the ability to override in the preamble
@StevenB.Segletes Er, somewhere in between I think: current plans are to address some aspects but keep the ability to sort the hook. But I'm not sure your case has come up, so details would be good: what package(s) are you setting up?
 
3:03 PM
@JosephWright Thanks. I will see if I can remember my github PW, LOL.
 
@StevenB.Segletes Like I said, here would do: I can always copy it across
@StevenB.Segletes I don't think there's ever been an issue with having package loading in a class
 
@JosephWright I think he meant \usepackage vs. \RequirePackage (wild guess)
 
@JosephWright I am loading tocloft inside a cls file to get some features, which redefines \tableofcontents. I am now unable to reset in my cls file a desired definition for \tableofcontents. Same applies to \listoffigures and \listoftables.
 
@Skillmon That did occur to me, but it's not important here :)
 
@JosephWright how about not changing the behaviour of \AtBeginDocument to use the new hooks, but provide the new hooks as well? That way, new code could use the auto-sorting hook mechanism (and provide rules), while all the legacy code still works.
 
3:07 PM
@StevenB.Segletes The current issue is (as far as we know) restricted to usages of \AtBeginDocument outside packages... Inside a package should work as it always have, so an example would be great
 
@JosephWright As I said, my workaround is to create my own tocloflot internal package to reset things, and have the cls file load that.
 
(or, add a new hook for it and do \def\AtBeginDocument{\AddToHook{legacy/atbegindocument}})
@StevenB.Segletes the correct "workaround" (well, not a workaround but the way the new hook mechanism is intended to be used), would be to provide a new rule which sorts your hooks after the hooks added by tocloft.
 
@PhelypeOleinik Yes, my issue is I am using \AtBeginDocument in a cls file to change a definition. Under the new scheme, package redefinitions of the variable change take precedence.
 
@StevenB.Segletes A class is (internally) basically the same as a package, so it should work nonetheless... I'm curious now :)
 
@PhelypeOleinik not if the class is sorted before the package (perhaps another \AtBeginDocument call happened earlier?), if I understood correctly.
 
3:14 PM
@Skillmon Ah, right, the package loads between two \AtBeginDocument from the class (took two people to make me understand... I'm extra dumb today :)
 
@PhelypeOleinik wouldn't you get inside a class the same, if you do \AtBeginDocument{something} load a package \AtBeginDocument{something else}? Then both would have the class label and be before the package by default? You need to use rules here aren't you?
 
@UlrikeFischer see my message above :)
 
@StevenB.Segletes the right thing to do is to use labels and hook rules to get a well defined order.
 
@UlrikeFischer And where do I learn about those?
3
 
@StevenB.Segletes texdoc lthooks
 
3:16 PM
@UlrikeFischer Yes if both \AtBeginDocument can go after the package, otherwise you'd need a different label (kind of the same situation as in the preamble...
 
@UlrikeFischer Thanks!!
 
I'd have an idea how the user-level (preamble-level) \AtBeginDocument calls could be handled to allow backwards compatibility with older code (doesn't work for package-level hooks, though).
But I don't know how to turn my idea into words in this chat...
 
@StevenB.Segletes Basically you do \AddToHook{begindocument}[myclass-tocloft-cor]{...} and then you can define a rule that the myclass-tocloft-cor label is always behind the tocloft label.
 
@Skillmon I said something like that ...
 
@StevenB.Segletes but you could perhaps also use \AddToHook{begindocument/end}{...}, that is always behind begindocument.
 
3:23 PM
Basically, the idea is to automatically use a new label for preamble-level \AtBeginDocument whenever one or more package-level \AtBeginDocument happens, and sort this new preamble-level label after the package-level labels added in the meantime. This way, the package sorting things can still be used (and package authors still need to check for such incompatibilities), but the user-level behaves somewhat like the old \AtBeginDocument.
 
@UlrikeFischer OK, although texdoc lthooks does not come up with documentation...
 
@JosephWright see my new idea^^^
 
@StevenB.Segletes it should ;-) at least in a current texlive.
 
Obvious drawback: Predicting user-level ordering, when the labels added at package-level have some extensive sorting rules themselves, gets way harder. (but then the user could as well just label by hand and add a rule to sort things out in those probably few cases)
 
@Skillmon we discussed that (top-level1, top-level2 etc), but this only works as long as there are not rules, but get very messy otherwise.
 
3:27 PM
@UlrikeFischer ^^^ today I seem to be fast :)
 
@UlrikeFischer BINGO! That did it: \AddToHook{begindocument/end}{...} Thank you!
 
@StevenB.Segletes with the new hooks there are now a number of options to sort such code.
 
@UlrikeFischer we should recommend this one sparsely, it defeats the purpose of ordering and would just be a step back if used by everyone.
@StevenB.Segletes while it's the easy way out, for a class/package where possible one should resort to sorting rules, imho.
 
@Skillmon I will use it as a quick fix for backward compatibility. But I understand I should learn and understand the hook mechanisms better.
@Skillmon I need to get a fix out today for my users...I can get a more permanent fix in the days to come.
 
@StevenB.Segletes same is true for me, I still only have a basic understanding of it, and know that it exists. I'm nowhere near confident in using it myself :) texdoc lthooks it is.
@StevenB.Segletes understandable!
 
3:34 PM
@Skillmon Unfortunately, MikTeX doesn't have it in texdocs yet
 
@StevenB.Segletes Another quick fix that wouldn't need to resort to begindocument/end is to do \AtBeginDocument[stevens-tocloft-patch]{...}
@StevenB.Segletes That should be enough (giving it a different label). You could make sure that it always goes after tocloft by doing \DeclareHookRule{begindocument}{stevens-tocloft-patch}{after}{tocloft}
 
@StevenB.Segletes in miktex you need texdoc lthooks-doc
 
@StevenB.Segletes but just giving it a different label (the default is your class's name) should be enough in your case
 
@PhelypeOleinik Yes, that is even better and also describes what is actually going on.
@UlrikeFischer OK let me give it a spin...Yes, that works!
 
@StevenB.Segletes We encourage people to use the class/package name in the label, so it's easily identifiable, so better than stevens-tocloft-patch would be \AtBeginDocument[./tocloft-patch]{...} (the . gets replaced by your class's name)
 
3:41 PM
@PhelypeOleinik All your comments are great and very helpful. I will avail myself of \DeclareHookRule and also name the hook ./tocloft-patch, as well.
 
@StevenB.Segletes Glad it helped :)
 
@PhelypeOleinik One last question. Will people have to upgrade their TeX installations to use the hooks?
 
@StevenB.Segletes Yes, those commands (and the optional argument to \AtBeginDocument) are only available starting with the 2020-10-01 release. You can use something like this to be compatible with older releases:
\providecommand\IfFormatAtLeastTF{\@ifl@t@r\fmtversion}
\IfFormatAtLeastTF{2020-10-01}%
  {% code for LaTeX > 2020-10-01
    \AtBeginDocument[./tocloft-patch]{...}%
    \DeclareHookRule{begindocument}{./tocloft-patch}{after}{tocloft}%
  }{% code for older releases
    \AtBeginDocument{...}%
  }
 
@PhelypeOleinik Got it! Thanks again!
 
@PhelypeOleinik wouldn't reducing code-duplication be more favourable here, using \IfFormatAtLeastTF{2020-10-01}{\DeclareHookRule{begindocument}{./tocloft-patch}{after}{tocloft}\AtBeginDocument[./tocloft-patch]}{\AtBeginDocument}{...}, or is \DeclareHookRule not valid for a label not being used yet?
 
3:48 PM
@Skillmon No, that would work fine too
@Skillmon The hook system is designed so that you don't need to know when a hook is defined to be able to do things to it. Everything should work the same way either before or after the hook/label is there
 
@PhelypeOleinik good to hear :)
@PhelypeOleinik there is just a tiny issue with this: \IfFormatAtLeastTF isn't the oldest of all macros. Chances are that if a user doesn't have \AddToHook, he also doesn't have \IfFormatAtLeastTF :)
 
@Skillmon That's the purpose of the \providecommand :)
 
@PhelypeOleinik oh, I shouldn't ignore the first line of your code:)
 
@Skillmon Given you had to double-explain me Steven's issue, you're forgiven ;-)
 
4:27 PM
@Skillmon Thanks for the streamline...
 
One of our major open source book publishers has created a Word - TeX converter for people who haven't seen the light. langsci-press-gug.org/doc2tex (problems with the security cert, but it's a legitimate website).
 
4:43 PM
@UlrikeFischer -- Hmmm. Still need onions and celery.
 
@AlanMunn interesting. Have you tested their converter?
 
@Skillmon No, the've just announced it. I assume it's semi-optimized for the kinds of typesetting linguists use a lot, so it's not likely to be entirely general. I'm not likely to have much time to try it for a while.
 
@AlanMunn it's ok, I was just curious :)
 
Rats! I was on the verge of being in palindrome territory when someone gave me the gift of a downvote. (tex.stackexchange.com/a/22563 ) Life is unfair. Does anyone think that I should further edit my answer to say that it's not considered necessary to add \@ after a capital letter before a comma? And can anyone confirm that neither the TeXbook nor Lamport says anything at all about that situation?
 
@PhelypeOleinik do you want me to dig out an oft-quoted message originally sent to Paulo?
 
4:54 PM
@DavidCarlisle I know you want to, so yes please ;-)
 
@DavidCarlisle ooh
 
@PhelypeOleinik would it have the desired effect?
 
@DavidCarlisle there's only one way to know, kind sir
 
Jan 12 '16 at 12:15, by David Carlisle
@PauloCereda finished your thesis?
 
\hides
 
5:04 PM
@DavidCarlisle oh no
 
@DavidCarlisle /clears throat: oh no
did I do it right?
 
@DavidCarlisle \phantom{plergux} :p
 
5:20 PM
@Plergux ooh a \phantom sheep
 
@PauloCereda boo!
 
@Plergux oh no
 
@PauloCereda that would be a heep
 
@DavidCarlisle I see what you did there :)
 
Nov 15 at 20:10, by Plergux
\dies of nerd :p
 
5:24 PM
@DavidCarlisle ah! that one took me a moment :D My first thought was "Whut? Uriah Sheep?" XD
@PhelypeOleinik lol
 
@Plergux Careful what you say in this chat! It might be quoted for ages
 
@PhelypeOleinik I can see that :D And they probably only remember the embarrassing things :p
 
 
1 hour later…
6:30 PM
@DavidCarlisle after all the trouble you have with the unused option list ;-)
 
6:56 PM
ACK! Today I discovered that git doesn't track file timestamps.
 
@LaTeXereXeTaL Nope, just file contents
 
@JosephWright That's somewhat surprising (to me, anyway).
 
@LaTeXereXeTaL I think the issue with timestamps is you've no certainty that two machines agree on the time of day
 
@UlrikeFischer is that new? oh new in tl2020 at least
 
@DavidCarlisle babel has changed, it now declares all unknown options and then process them:
\bbl@foreach\@classoptionslist{%
  \bbl@ifunset{ds@#1}%
    {\IfFileExists{#1.ldf}{}%
      {\IfFileExists{babel-#1.tex}{}{\DeclareOption{#1}{}}}}%
    {}%
  \bbl@ifunset{ds@#1}%
    {\def\bbl@tempb{#1}%
     \DeclareOption{#1}{%
       \ifnum\bbl@iniflag>\@ne
         \bbl@ldfinit
         \babelprovide[import]{#1}%
         \bbl@afterldf{}%
       \else
         \bbl@load@language{#1}%
       \fi}}%
    {}}
 
7:03 PM
@UlrikeFischer yes assumed it must be babel, doesn't look right really
 
@DavidCarlisle Hello :)
 
@PabloGonzálezL dinner
oh wrong response:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle quack
 
@PauloCereda Hola
 
@DavidCarlisle I... am confused!
 
7:09 PM
@JosephWright Ah I see.
 
@JosephWright they could agree it's tea time :)
 
@PauloCereda Sounds good to me
 
user image
2
@JosephWright ooh
 
@DavidCarlisle no, but I guess it is trying to process all option "that perhaps could work" without predeclaring them.
 
@DavidCarlisle :D
 
7:20 PM
@Plergux This looks interesting: github.com/bdchauvette/leipzig.js
 
7:37 PM
@AlanMunn -- This is really interesting news. Do you see any problem with my announcing it in my column in the next issue of TUGboat?
@Plergux -- What? You're almost there. You've turned in a substantial draft, and you said that its appearance, at least, met with a favorable reaction from your adviser.
 
@barbarabeeton I would probably contact LSP directly; I think they intend this as a tool for authors submitting manuscripts to them rather than a general purpose tool. But they've advertised it on their Facebook page, so I expect they wouldn't mind another mention in TUGBoat.
 
@StevenB.Segletes what is still missing beside lthooks-doc ltshipout-doc and ltfilehook-doc which are more reference docs is an article about use cases and examples. It's on our list, but we are still in collecting phase and learning --- besides the days still have only 24 hours here (and not much sunshine :-( which makes you sleepy)
 
7:56 PM
@barbarabeeton @Skillmon I've just tried 4 ancient Word documents and got a server error each time. So maybe this isn't ready for primetime.
 
@AlanMunn -- Not really a problem for me or TUGboat -- the deadline for the next issue isn't until next March. I'll check again then. Thanks.
 
@barbarabeeton I managed to convert a simple document. It's definitely not designed to be general purpose.
 
@AlanMunn -- Thanks. What I had in mind, really, was not to advertise it for general use, but to cite it as recognition by another discipline that LaTeX gives results that are preferable to those from Word. In other words, LaTeX may be creeping into the mainstream.
 
8:12 PM
@barbarabeeton Yes, that I think is definitely worthwhile. Did you also announce the Journal of Historical Syntax announcement that I posted a while ago?
 
@AlanMunn -- No; somehow I seem to have missed that. What should I look for?
 
Aug 20 at 22:10, by Alan Munn
From the Open Access Journal of Historical Syntax: "For all articles and squibs submitted from 1st September 2020 onwards, we've therefore decided to require authors to submit the post-review version of their accepted manuscripts in LaTeX, using the JHS submission template." https://ojs.ub.uni-konstanz.de/hs/index.php/hs/announcement/view/1
 
Apropos of nothing related to TeX and friends, is Leif Nelson a popular brand in Germany?
 
@FrankMittelbach Thank you. I was able to get enough help to get me through my issue. I will look forward in the future to examples and use cases.
 
8:26 PM
@AlanMunn -- Thanks, and that's a really great manifesto to authors. I think I'll ask the editors to permit me to quote it. (I can attest to the time it takes to do a creditable editing job even when a manuscript is submitted in LaTeX!)
 
Good day !
 
Greetings!
 
Is there a way (I always feel bad when asking this kind of question with LaTeX) to display both the final number and the original reference name in a document with biblatex? Let's say I have a reference like @article{myref,...} in my .bib, I would like \cite{myref} to be typeset as e.g. [myref:1].
I could not find posts on this
I am revising a document with someone very not used to LaTeX, which has trouble with the whole reference name different than final number thing.
 
@BambOo there is a package --- showkeys --- that do exactly that.
 
8:41 PM
@Rmano, veeeery noice ! :) Of course David Carlisle has already done this ^^
Thanks
 
8:57 PM
@LaTeXereXeTaL No, not that I know of.
 
@Rmano Do you need a package, I thought this was the default output if biber isn't run.
 
An announcement that is very important for @DavidCarlisle meta.stackexchange.com/questions/357281/…
 
@LaTeXereXeTaL Sounds like a tea brand. Wait, the tea is called Lord Nelson.
 
@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas This is fantastic! Then we're guaranteed not to see it (I, and I think many others hide the left navigation entirely.)
 
@AlexG Apparently they're a clothing company. I just got one of their sweaters from Amazon. The first attempt yielded a counterfeit item that I had to return. This one seems genuine and I'm just trying to find more about the company.
 
9:04 PM
@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas I have managed to find it a few times, in the past however.
 
@BambOo like this
\documentclass{book}
\usepackage{biblatex}
\addbibresource{biblatex-examples.bib}
\DeclareFieldFormat{labelnumber}{\printfield{entrykey}:#1}
\begin{document}
  \cite{doody}
\end{document}
 
@AlanMunn My left navigation bar is also hidden :)
@AlanMunn Be quick and ask all questions you might have in the future now before the button is gone forever :)
 
@AlanMunn Ooooh, indeed :D \adds to procrastination list
@barbarabeeton Absolutely. That doesn't mean I should be slacking off and avoiding finishing what still needs to be done :p
 
@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas I could suggest the css for that that's in my user stylesheet for this site.
 
9:20 PM
^^^ not a latex user?
@DavidCarlisle Your css would be better than hiding in a hamburger menu - given that every other day someone asks where to find the logout button, they should have learned by now that this does not work...
 
@UlrikeFischer, thanks, I will try this at once !
@UlrikeFischer, that is different, but very helpful too, thank you very much
 
9:38 PM
@AlanMunn thanks for trying! (also saw the other messages)
:56298008 oh, no, I was too late, now I only see (removed)
 
@Skillmon I misinterpreted your last message, (which I thought was about the egrep comment) but then realized it was about the conversion comments. :)
 
@AlanMunn oh, then it's all fine again and I can relax :)
 
@Plergux -- Take a look at this page: wordsmith.org/words/yeanling.html It's got a picture I think you might like.
 

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