quack

> Uri Geller Says Nintendo Can Print Kadabra On Pokémon Cards Again

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas ^^

@PauloCereda quack

@DavidCarlisle but there are strong indications to suspect it :D

@merrybot quack :)

@FrankMittelbach The main point I'm making here is that this is silent breakage of previously well-defined behavior. In the case of the UTF-8 change you also broke existing document but at least they broke noisy. Here you are just invalidating people's documents without notice! And don't tell me to read the changelog or test against dev because the overwhelming majority of users will not do that or even cannot do it.

@FrankMittelbach I really do not mind the noisy type of breakage where your document suddently does not compile with an error. Fine, then I know that I have to fix something, but with the new hook mechanism suddenly shadings started disappearing from valid documents and command overrides also don't work anymore without an explicit error. Yet the entire team seems to refuse to acknowledge that this is a problem.

@PauloCereda what? They couldn't at some point?

@Skillmon no, because this Pokémon used to be of a psych type and bend spoons, and Geller thought it was a reference to him and prohibited Nintendo to advertise it.

@Skillmon of course Nintendo took inspiration from him, as the Japanese name for Kadabra is Yungeller. :)

@PauloCereda well, they can't even spell that in Japanese... :) But I didn't know that. I still don't understand how he could be able to prohibit that, seems a bit stupid to me.

@Skillmon I like how Kadabra has one spoon and the evolution Alakazam has TWO spoons. :)

@PauloCereda that and Gengar used to be my favourites. And Arcanine.

@Skillmon ooh a ghost and a fire dog. :)

@PauloCereda LOL, he always reminds me of The Stupendous Yappi on X-Files :p

@PauloCereda great, now I want to replay Pokemon. But I don't have the time :(

@Plergux LOL

@Skillmon ooh which one, Red, Yellow, Blue, Green?

@Skillmon: better: what's your starter?

Of course, @Plergux has a wooloo and a mareep. :)

@PauloCereda :p That one that looks like flying cauliflower also kind of looks like a sheep. I forget what it's called. :p

@PauloCereda Bulbasaur, because there is a better fire Pokemon than Charizard, and a better water type than Blastoise. But young me always picked the fire starter in every Pokemon game I played.

@Skillmon ooh I get Squirtle or Charmander. :)

@PauloCereda Once I was playing Pokémon go on a walk with my husband and he said "Catch the next one for me." And I caught a Charmander and named him Burt Charman. He's got like 34 CP but I like him. :p

@PauloCereda oh, and if I play the first generation, I always catch >6 Mew (basically, as much as you can buy PokeBalls when you get to Azuria City).

@Plergux ooh :D

@Skillmon ooh :)

Misty's Starmie always was tough

@PauloCereda not so much if you picked Bulbasaur, but still a tough one, yes.

@Skillmon ah yes, grass vs. water. :)

@Skillmon Never thought of it: picking bulbasaur would make the first two gyms very easy...

@Plergux, @Skillmon: the last installment of Pokémon (Sword/Shield) is said to happen in a region resembling England (Y/X happened in a region resembling France). I always laugh when I see Mr. Mime's evolution, Mr. Rime

I say, old bean

@PauloCereda holy heck! That's Mr. B! :D

@Plergux EXACTLY

The new Galarian Weezing also amazing:

This looks to me like a top hat. :D

@PauloCereda LOL, yeah. My first thought was My Fair Lady for some reason :p

@Plergux LOLOLOL

@Plergux @Skillmon we should make our own Pokémon version of this community, assigning Pokémons to users and also setting gym leaders. :)

@PauloCereda and we could alter the Yoshi-line-filler answer with a Lickitung.

@PauloCereda oooh! dibs on Farfetch'd :p

@Skillmon ooh :)

@Plergux ooh did you see his evolution?

@PauloCereda wooooow....!

That's epic XD

Sirfetch'd

@PauloCereda LOL

@Plergux it's really his name!

@PauloCereda :D

@Plergux have you ever seem the Pokémon honest trailer series?

@PauloCereda nope :p

ooh hold on

Blastoise -> Water Bowser killed me

@PauloCereda LOL, these are amazing. I'm laughing so hard my husband is concerned :p And they're clever too, cause some of them you have to know the background, like "Kiss from a rose" = Seal. :p

@Plergux Yes! :D

@PauloCereda "four legged Pikmin" lol! Love Pikmin :D

@Plergux really? Me too!

@Plergux Pikmin 3 was re-released for the Switch, on deluxe edition. :)

@PauloCereda I played it on Playstation :) I'll have to go dig it out of the storage now and play it again :p (or make the kid play it so I can watch XD)

@Plergux oh no, beware of the wollywogs!

@PauloCereda heh heh heh...

@Plergux Pikmin was available for PS? I thought it was a Nintendo exclusive...

@PauloCereda Must have, cause I'm pretty sure I've played Pikmin and I've never owned a Nintendo :p

@PauloCereda AAhhh, wait. I might have played it on Wii.

@Plergux oh no

@Plergux YES YES YES

/quacks in joy

@Plergux that's why I asked, Pikmin was heavily based on motion controls. :)

@PauloCereda I just forgot cause I bought it with my sister and it was at my house for a couple of months and then she just kept it. :p It's been years. :p

@Plergux oh no, we need to get the Wii back from the sheep sister. :)

@PauloCereda Heh heh heh...

@PauloCereda guess what I found in the games our friend lent the kid to play on his DS? :p

@Plergux OH MY!

@PauloCereda Eevee spelled backwards!

@Skillmon ooh <3

@HenriMenke Henri, it's not that we don't acknowledge there is a problem but it's hard to discuss things as responses to somewhat aggressively worded chat messages. The discussion is a lot gentler and hopefully more productive in the gh issue. (@FrankMittelbach)

@Plergux my daughter is saying that that pokemon diamond is a collectible object and that you can sell it for a lot of money... (she is the only one pokemonizing here, I'm too old to even understand --- I fare better with quantum physics)

Although the really valuables ones are Soul Silver and Platinum

@Rmano ooh

@Rmano probably, Heart Gold and Soul Silver. :)

@PauloCereda yep, she's saying that these two are around 300€ --- wut?

@Rmano :) Well, the game is not mine. It was lent to my son by a friend. I think selling it would be a bit of a d**k move :p

@Plergux yes, I see :-)

@DavidCarlisle So far I have only been told that this is “not a bug” or that this issue is apparently isolated to unicode-math and external because I coincidentally used that in my example.

@HenriMenke it is not "bug" in the sense that it is not something that we overlooked (apart the part of "hidden" top-level chunks in library code). It was a conscious decision that implementing the hook management will change the order. We wanted to get away from the system that people have to move code around in the preamble to get things working. But we are currently discussing if moving the top-level code to the end makes more sense.

@HenriMenke the external issue though is a worse than normal case so it was good that you raised that.

@UlrikeFischer “library code“ can totally be a user preamble that is \input.

@DavidCarlisle ^^^

@UlrikeFischer Why don't you just throw an error if reordering occurs? That way there is no silent breakage.

@HenriMenke sure but if it's input it's a lot more reasonable that it acts the same way as code in the preamble. (we can still discuss how code in the preamble should work, but I think \input should work the same way)

@HenriMenke that's one option we have been discussing yes, but if we can avoid error cases (ie, make things work) it would be better still.

@DavidCarlisle Well, right now it doesn't work and there is no error, which is the worst of both worlds, in my opinion.

@HenriMenke that's true, although when we looked at this before the judgement was that this would be a rare case, the tikzlibrary issue made it a lot less rare but as you showed that's fixable in package code with no change to the document. This has been out on the wild for 2 months or 6 if you count -dev releases .....

......so while it's certainly true that you can construct cases that break are there many in practice, and perhaps a better question if the preamble atbegindocument were always sorted last how many would there be? Before the utf-8 change we had several strong messages urging us not to do that and everything would break but in all that tlime I think I have only seen one real user document that needed to revert with userawinputencoding

@DavidCarlisle Still missing the point: noisy vs. silent

@DavidCarlisle A lot of documents that use biblatex or unicode-math also use \AtBeginDocument to override settings from these packages.

@HenriMenke most cases that do not error will work now so making them error isn't clearly a gain, the error message in the error cases would be better but it is not as simple a judgement call as you imply. We all want to end up with a situation where most douments simply work with no error.

@HenriMenke yes and most of them work now.

@DavidCarlisle No

\usepackage{biblatex}
\AtBeginDocument{<override biblatex>}
\usepackage{unicode-math}
\AtBeginDocument{<override unicode-math>} % <-- oops, does nothing

Trivial counterexample.

@HenriMenke your example only failed to work as the preamble AtBeginDocument accidentally got sorted earlier.

@DavidCarlisle Are you trying to argue that this is not a real-world example? Or that the user who wrote this is clearly a complete idiot for not anticipating possible reordering?

@HenriMenke that is not most it is a specific ordering that you know breaks, but is also why I asked above how many would break if the preamble AtBeginDocument were by default sorted to the end, which would make that one work?

@DavidCarlisle This is a specific ordering that I know tons of users currently use.

@HenriMenke please don't use such hostile characterisations, it makes discussion impossible.

@DavidCarlisle If you want to allow for reordering you have to topologically sort them but that is impossible without the user explicitly specifying the dependencies (or somehow inferring them which is even more difficult).

@HenriMenke that is, if the default sort rules were tweaked such that your example were equivalent to

\usepackage{biblatex}
\usepackage{unicode-math}
\AtBeginDocument{<override biblatex>}
\AtBeginDocument{<override unicode-math>}

then are there any packages where you could see there still being issues?

@DavidCarlisle Yes, it's still an issue but much harder to trigger now, so you can probably get away with it

\AtBeginDocument{<my hook>}
\usepackage{my-awesome-preamble} % tries to override <my hook>

@DavidCarlisle Something like this will no longer work.

@DavidCarlisle But here I actually agree that this seems contrived.

@HenriMenke any change is an issue, I literally broke one package some years ago by removing a redundant \relax from a command in the format, as it turned out the package (I forget which) was using that as a delimiter target to patch in some functionality. Everything is a judgement call, there are no completely safe or completely compatible changes.

@DavidCarlisle I agree but the main point here is noisy vs. silent. Silently invalidating documents that were previously accepted is a no-go in my opinion.

@HenriMenke and also probably fixable with package updates. Changes that require updates to packages (even if they annoy the package maintainer) are a lot less problematic than changes that require updates to documents.

@DavidCarlisle In many cases yes, but I wrote my-awesome-preamble on purpose to show that this is user-controlled code.

@DavidCarlisle However, these constructions are likely very rare even in template garbage from the internet.

@HenriMenke almost always these usepackage,AtBeginDocument,usepackage dances are stepping round incompatibilities between contributed packages, so there is no certainty of them being stable between releases even if we didn't change anything, package updates can change the conflicts, and it is not as if most package authors test or are even aware of the dependencies between packages.

@DavidCarlisle just search for a given prefix, then code everything from primitives up with that prefix. If now there are conflicts, it'll certainly not be your fault :)

@HenriMenke we'll ping you in the gh issue if there are concrete code change suggestions, we are looking what's possible...

@PauloCereda :D

@Plergux :)

@Plergux I stopped at Pokémon Let's Go Eevee, but today's talk made me interested in playing Sword/Shield.

@PauloCereda :D

@PauloCereda South should be "Mountains of madness"!

@PhelypeOleinik ooh Lovecraft approves

@PauloCereda I think you have the map the wrong way round, it's conventional to have north at the top.

@DavidCarlisle ooh rotate box

@PauloCereda still wrong

@DavidCarlisle oh no

@DavidCarlisle Where can I find the mwe with external that is breaking?

@PhelypeOleinik initial comment github.com/latex3/latex2e/issues/441

@DavidCarlisle drat, you were faster :)

@DavidCarlisle Ah, right (not sure why I didn't spot that). Thanks

@DavidCarlisle it was unfair, you got pinged, I only saw it by chance.

@Skillmon ooh mr. rabbit will play Pokémon <3

@PauloCereda unfortunately, I don't have too much time right now to play :( Have to prepare a talk until 10th December, and continue teaching students while doing that...

@Skillmon oh

Darth Vader is dead

@Skillmon oh no

half an hour debugging some code just to find out I don't know to what side is “left”...

@PhelypeOleinik welcome to my world. "Kids, it's easy! The right hand is the one you use to write!", says the teacher to a bunch of pre-schoolers, and me being the only left-handed in the group...

@PauloCereda Same as trying to teach a time-lord the left side is where the heart is :)

@PhelypeOleinik quite. :)

@PhelypeOleinik Or trying to make sense of a mineiro saying trem. :)

@PauloCereda hahahahha

@PauloCereda They have pão de queijo, so I can cope with a trem

@PhelypeOleinik ooh I concur

@PhelypeOleinik I enjoy their accent very much. :)

@PauloCereda It's kinda cute :)

@PhelypeOleinik :)

@PauloCereda Tudo no diminutivim

@PhelypeOleinik nossinhora, lidileite, mastumati

@PauloCereda quackity quack :p

@merrybot 'ello :)

how goes it?

@merrybot good, you? :)

bien

@Plergux What's the distinction here: Having a bottom, being

@MarcelKrüger You mean what the difference is between "hola" and "gat"? The hole-type is like something you dig. It's a depression into the ground or another surface but it doesn't go through. So if you wanted to say "I dug a hole in the ground to plant the tree in." in Icelandic you'd have to use "hola", but if you wanted to say "There is a hole in my wall. I can see right through to the kitchen now." you'd have to use "gat".

@Plergux Actually I sent that by accident, but thanks for the answer anyway. If there is a cave under me and my "hola" accidentally reaches the cave, does it become a "gat"?

@MarcelKrüger lol, ok. :p But yes. It would become a "gat (ofan í hellinn)" 'hole (into the cave)".

Does anyone know what xrhrft.blogspot.com are? I found it while googling for some tikz solution and found that there are copies of post including usenames from this site.

strange

idk

@hpekristiansen vvv

@HenriMenke: Thanks.I guess it is ok then. It is hard to know if they provide attribution to original posts as their formatting is so terrible.

@Skillmon I literally pulled an all-nighter trying to get that one little demo in my latest question working.

@LaTeXereXeTaL interested to get even more confused? I can show (and explain) you some code on how you could do that with expkv.

@HenriMenke Pardon? I'm not aware that shading disappeared and the entire team said this is not a problem. Which issue is that that we closed with not a problem? In all case that I know (where we did know in advance that there is a problem, for example with a package overwriting internal kernel commands) we tried 2 month before the release to to get the maintainers to update and helped doing so if possible. But clearly we don't see all possible issues beforehand in all cases.

@HenriMenke to iterate on the a little further: yes silent versus non-silent is a point (though not a shitting on users point) and we may have made the wrong judgement call in that particular case, but if out of a million documents one has an issue and we do put out a warnign or an error for the others then that is equally bad or worse.

and it is not as if we aren't looking at this problem now that it actually showed up in real life (by the way there are at least 6 or seven tikz libraries that use \AtBeginDocument so are format dependent and those would benefit from a push/pop label method).

@FrankMittelbach For shading see github.com/pgf-tikz/pgf/issues/928

so where please does the team say we think this is/was not a problem? The fact that packages that overwrite internals of LaTeX may need adjustments doesn't mean that we don't care. What doesn't necessary follow that the kernel needs to revert but that isn't same as not caring or not looking for a solution that works for the users.

@Plergux "hola" is "hello" in Spanish, so we can go with that. <3

@PauloCereda Comments like that make me furo-ous.

@AlanMunn ooh you know what's a fuio?

(@PhelypeOleinik ^^ brace yoursef)

I think I'm supposed to quack now.

@LaTeXereXeTaL quack

@PauloCereda quack back

@LaTeXereXeTaL ooh I like Quackula

@PauloCereda Count Quackula

@LaTeXereXeTaL Quackquire

I'm imagining a duck with fangs...

@AlanMunn um fuio é um buiaco na paiede :)

@PauloCereda To quote C. "I think it exists as a word, but it's not in my vocabulary". So no. :)

@StefanKottwitz Quack + Vampire?

@PauloCereda I think this joke is beyond me. :(

@AlanMunn fuio = furo like said by children. :)

@PauloCereda Ah, ok, I thought it was all phonology, but I wasn't sure.

Then buiaco = buraco. :)

And paiede = parede.

@LaTeXereXeTaL Duck Tartare

@AlanMunn try telling C and see if she kills you. :)

@PauloCereda Yes, I got that, so I guess I did figure it out.

@PauloCereda Now I know why you told @PhelypeOleinik to brace himself. :)

@DavidCarlisle Ah! Well the only tartare I've had is sushi (if that qualifies).

@AlanMunn :D

Well sushimi actually

@PauloCereda I will spare her (and me).

@AlanMunn ooh

@LaTeXereXeTaL sashimi I think you mean

@AlanMunn Probably. No spell check here. :D

@LaTeXereXeTaL Do you know the Quackquire Queen Quackasha, Queen of the Quacked, quacktured by quimmortal Quaaliyah?

@StefanKottwitz Umm no, but sounds vaguely like something from Monty Python.

@LaTeXereXeTaL oh no, it's her:

@StefanKottwitz I can honestly say I've never met her.

@LaTeXereXeTaL Watch the movie "Queen of the Damned"

@StefanKottwitz Is it on Netflix?

@LaTeXereXeTaL It is of 2002, before the Netflix generation

Part of The Vampire Chronicles books by Anne Rice

@StefanKottwitz Aha THAT I've heard of.

I read all vampire books since I first saw them around the year 1600

@StefanKottwitz You were alive in 1600?

@LaTeXereXeTaL Depends on the definition of alive.

@StefanKottwitz Well you've got a point there.

@LaTeXereXeTaL And two points in the neck make immortal.

@StefanKottwitz This is kind of like a headline a friend sent me: Pair of army veterans reunited after 60 years at Christmas party

@StefanKottwitz I only get bitten by mosquitoes.

@AlanMunn How did they feel after 60 years at Christmas party? They partied a long time.

Fresh blood delivery ensured?

@StefanKottwitz Exactly!

@AlanMunn Luckily I got it! As a T̶r̶a̶n̶s̶s̶y̶l̶v̶a̶n̶i̶a̶n̶ German it's not so easy to grasp.

@StefanKottwitz :) I would imagine you could construct an identical ambiguity in German though.

@AlanMunn Yes, it's similarly ambiguous in a straight translation to German.

helluva party though :-)

@StefanKottwitz No wonder it took so long for them to find each other.

@PauloCereda Sometimes "hola hola" is used twice in a row for emphasis. When writing it you should use the "h", otherwise the expression "hola ola" is interpreted as "hello wave" (@PhelypeOleinik) :D