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4:01 PM
@DavidCarlisle I see. Are we still talking about ifthen?
Oh, and can I call it like this?
\GenPrintTable{*}{\ReferencedIDs}{myDB}
?
I'm doing something wrong - there is an argument mismatch.
 
@FaheemMitha it should be called as \GenPrintTable*{...}.
 
@UlrikeFischer Ah, yes. Was wondering about that. But was looking for example usage in the manual, and didn't find any.
My most common criticism for software documentation.
More and simpler examples. And preferably, standalone ones.
Though, compared to the R documentation, for example, the LaTeX documentation is quite good.
 
@FaheemMitha Well, documentation is not exactly a synonym for a comprehensive introduction...
 
The R documentation is a bit of a low water mark. Truly terrible usage of examples.
@PauloCereda I don't follow.
Check out the rsync man page. It may be wordy, but that's how you write example usage.
At the top of pg 7, there is an example showing how to use \IfBooleanTF with a star agument called. The example macro is \foo. But invocation is not shown.
Suggestion: add something telling the users to add a star at the end of the command name. Don't assume they know how to do that just because LaTeX 2e does it like that.
Is there a suitable place to make bug reports for this kind of thing?
 
4:20 PM
@FaheemMitha no like \section* with no {}
 
@FaheemMitha I see your concern, but documentation is not entitled to do that, it reports its own features...
The rest is simply a bonus, a freebie.
 
@FaheemMitha It's a question of target group. The introduction aims to show what is possible and incrementally advances from simple to more complex subjects. In a documentation it's often the "how", hence it will sometimes aim at developers or at least mention implementation details too. For LaTeX packages the documentation tries to do both.
 
@DavidCarlisle Yes, I got it. So
\GenPrintTable*{\ReferencedIDs}{myDB}
?
 
@TeXnician THIS
 
@TeXnician For something this basic, the documentation should try to be self-contained.
 
4:22 PM
@PauloCereda :)
 
@FaheemMitha yes or without the * of course, and the {} around a token such as \ReferencedIDs are always optional in TeX
 
And I didn't get an answer to my question. Where do I report bugs?
 
@FaheemMitha Why, if it's basic? :)
 
@FaheemMitha github (or latex-l mailing list) or just moan to @JosephWright here:-)
 
@PauloCereda Because LaTeX users don't have magical mind-reading powers?
 
4:23 PM
@FaheemMitha "This basic"? Oh I would call the LaTeX kernel very basic, but source2e is long without real usage examples and to be honest I wouldn't really want it to contain some, because then it would lose its value for quick research.
 
It would be nice if they did. Then developers wouldn't have to bother with documentation at all.
 
@FaheemMitha Bugs in ???
 
@DavidCarlisle I'll try github.
 
@FaheemMitha Or because LaTeX users don't want to read other materials that are relevant to the context? :)
 
@JosephWright I was just making a perfectly innocuous suggestion.
And got jumped on.
 
4:24 PM
@FaheemMitha Ah: just saw my name and wondered what needed logging/fixing/...
 
@PauloCereda Right, LaTeX users do not want to read about ConTeXt :D
 
@TeXnician it would be good for them
 
@TeXnician those bastards. :)
 
@JosephWright What Github issue tracker is suitable for making suggestions about the xparse manual?
 
@FaheemMitha Ah
 
4:25 PM
@DavidCarlisle I guess it would be better, if we LaTeX users would first understand TeX. Then we could talk about anything elseā€¦
 
@FaheemMitha the one with the xparse sources:-) latex3 organization latex3 repo
 
@FaheemMitha Well it wouldn't hurt to show a \foo* in the documentation, but on the other side everyone who has read an latex introduction should have seen all the commands like \chapter*, align* etc with a star. So the hurdle to understand it is rather low.
 
@FaheemMitha The LaTeX3 one: github.com/latex3/latex3/issues
 
@UlrikeFischer I've been using LaTeX since 1996. Now, I freely admit I may be brain-damaged, but I suspect here are many other similarly brain-damaged users around.
And one should be kind to the brain-damaged users. One day, you might be among their ranks.
Not you, personally. I meant that as a general comment.
@JosephWright Thank you for the pointer. I'll add a quick note, before I forget all about it.
 
@FaheemMitha to be honest while this is running over latex2e as opposed to a stand alone format with self contained documentation, i would expect that basic knowledge of latex syntax: * forms [] for optional arguments and {} for mandatory arguments can be assumed in the xparse manual. It is not intended as a beginners tutorial for latex2e.
 
4:28 PM
@DavidCarlisle I thought it was LaTeX 3.
 
@FaheemMitha not really.
 
Do you expect LaTeX 3 users to be familiar with LaTeX 2e?
 
@FaheemMitha Ah, a big question
 
@DavidCarlisle It says "LaTeX 3 Project" at the top.
 
@FaheemMitha I take the line that the document syntax is likely to be similar: others prefer to leave this question more open
 
4:30 PM
@JosephWright I've got to say that I think you folks have your expectations set way too high.
Anyway, writing a quick issue. You can ignore it if you want.
 
@FaheemMitha xparse is designed to define latex2e style interfaces
 
@DavidCarlisle Yes, and it should do so in a standalone way. IMO, at least.
 
@FaheemMitha latex2e has been maintained by the latex3 project since 1993 so that is no surprise.
 
Showing some actual examples should not be too painful, I think. You could add a small example somewhere which the experts can then ignore.
 
@FaheemMitha no it doesn't really help to have a latex tutorial there surely?
 
4:32 PM
@DavidCarlisle Usage examples is a tutorial?
 
@FaheemMitha perhaps
 
@FaheemMitha In what way?
 
@FaheemMitha It can always happen that you suddenly don't understand something because you miss or forgot some really simple point or because a documentation doesn't mention something everyone else thinks if obvious. The xparse documentation doesn't mention a lot of other obvious things, e.g. that commands can have arguments, that command names should consist of letters etc ...
 
@FaheemMitha If we are talking about xparse, it's really meant for programmers: it's the glue between implementation and the document level ...
 
@JosephWright Well, wrt the example on hand. That the documentation should mention how to invoke commands with star arguments.
@JosephWright And yes, xparse.
@UlrikeFischer I don't think I've forgotten it. I don't think I ever really knew it.
 
4:34 PM
@FaheemMitha why *? do you also think it should explain {} syntax for mandatory arguments and [] for optional?
 
@DavidCarlisle Wouldn't hurt, imo.
But [] and {} are probably even more basic.
 
@FaheemMitha if every package documentation had to start from the basics and explain all of latex we'd never get anywhere
@FaheemMitha {} is but [] certainly is not.
 
@DavidCarlisle Sigh. I don't seem to be convincing anyone here, so I'll stop.
Anyway, just writing my little issue.
 
@FaheemMitha documentation can always be improved but I think your basic starting point here was not really reasonable
 
@DavidCarlisle So you think the reader should be looking at other documentation before reading the xparse manual?
Or should simply know this stuff already?
 
4:38 PM
@daleif -- there are a lot of things that outlook doesn't have good tools for. but some of us don't have any choice.
 
@FaheemMitha the reader is assumed to know basic latex forms such as \section* yes
 
@DavidCarlisle I know about \section. And \section*. But I don't see how that translates.
 
Is it me, or you guys are getting GDPR-related emails all over the place?
Got 5, just today.
 
@PauloCereda Maaaany
 
@egreg Ouch!
 
4:43 PM
@FaheemMitha Well now you do. ;-). No documentation can be self contained.
 
@PauloCereda Yup
 
Again, I think basic usage examples are perfectly reasonable things to have.
If only to remind everyone how things work.
But I can see I'm very much in the minority here.
 
@PauloCereda me too. A lot are threatening to never write me again (hurray!).
 
@JosephWright I am the maintainer of that website. You may notice it has not been updated in a long, long time. I suppose you will get a notion of the current state of affairs here: ncm.gu.se/normat
 
@UlrikeFischer ooh :D
Cute terminal configuration!
 
4:51 PM
So, just to be sure, The #1 in the body of the macro still refers to the star argument, correct?
 
@DavidCarlisle Redirect working: try tex-faq.github.io/FAQ-ant.html
@FaheemMitha It refers to the logical outcome: is there a star or not
 
@JosephWright Yes, ok. Thank you for the confirmation.
 
@PauloCereda -- lots and lots. mostly from organizations that have an international presence, but also a great big explanatory one from the ams executive director telling us all what we should do when we get a request from someone in the eu.
 
@barbarabeeton oh my!
 
4:58 PM
@JosephWright -- you probably don't really want to add it, but since mathjax uses latex math syntax, it might be worth mentioning that it has a different purpose and is not equivalent to or even related to latex.
 
@barbarabeeton That probably wants a separate question: I'll log an issue to remind me
 
@JosephWright -- if you're going that route, mentioning that even microsoft allows some (la)tex syntax for math under certain circumstances. but i wouldn't guarantee that it produces the same results.
 
@barbarabeeton I'll think about it
@barbarabeeton At present, mainly cleaning up existing answers: here, I wanted to get rid of the ANT one (it's vanished from the internet), but keep some historical data. A question on alternatives seemed reasonable.
 
@JosephWright -- maybe a general topic "tools that use (some) tex-like syntax but aren't related to tex".
 
@barbarabeeton Yes, I was thinking 'TeX-like syntax'. I'll note that in the issue.
 
5:02 PM
@JosephWright -- and i'm working on a couple of items that i know something about. will send mail when i've got something reasonably definitive.
 
Another email!
 
BTW, have people seen the new, enhanced, label descriptions for GitHub?
@barbarabeeton Great
 
@JosephWright Yep
 
@DavidCarlisle BTW, the FAQ have 'LaTeX 2e', but I'd usually write 'LaTeX2e' with no space: thoughts?
 
5:23 PM
Is there a site where I link snippets of latex?
 
I think any online copy-paste site will do, just wont compile it
 
you mean they won't render the latex
 
@JosephWright yes drop the space
 
yeap, just a paste bin, useful for too long tex codes
 
which sites do you guys use
 
5:46 PM
@DavidCarlisle Might be useful to auto-gen the index: blog.webjeda.com/jekyll-categories We only get one level but that is probably OK
 
6:12 PM
@user782220 I rarely use it myself, but tlhiv.org will work. That guy is nice, also :)
 
 
1 hour later…
7:28 PM
@JosephWright seems to work (but I'm at the parish agm:-)
 
@JosephWright I would have simplified it more, to "just use emacs"
 
9:23 PM
Why should I switch from TexStudio to emacs? I see many ppl here use emcas
 
@G.Bay Use the editor you like
 
@JosephWright Maybe the question is "why so many ppl like emacs?"
 
@G.Bay It's been around a long time, it's very extensible, ...
@G.Bay I suspect the popularity might partly reflect the ages of users ...
 
xD hahaha
 
@G.Bay For example, if you look at code devs, dedicated IDEs are popular with a lot of (younger) programmers
 
9:29 PM
@JosephWright I look at some emacs screenshots... and I even tried once, but I couldn't find anything "better" then what TexStudio offers me. Actually it was the opposite.
 
@G.Bay Like I said, use what you like
@G.Bay I started out in LaTeX with WinEdt, but moved to TeXworks years ago: it's 'less powerful' than WinEdt, but I find it more convenient
@G.Bay I can use Emacs, but I've never got on with it (I favour nano at the command line)
@DavidCarlisle Moving sources seems to work, if we want: josephwright.github.io/tex-faq.github.io/FAQ-2colfloat
 
@JosephWright with the permalink: yaml entry giving the public flat view?
 
@DavidCarlisle Exactly
 
@G.Bay because texstudio isn't emacs
 
@DavidCarlisle You can use the 'edit' link to see that it's not in the main dir
@DavidCarlisle Of course, one could argue that flat is fine ... I just think longer-term some automated division would be easier. Of course, dividing everything up would be a lot of work.
 
9:40 PM
@JosephWright yes well i just went to your github code browse view
@JosephWright couldn't you just bulk move based on the section structure inthe toc as a first pass?
 
@DavidCarlisle Of course
@DavidCarlisle All doable using a quick Lua script ...
 
@JosephWright or emacs...
@JosephWright would you change all the question links to use the jeckyl {link thing at same time?
 
@DavidCarlisle I guess what I really mean is I'm not sure whether it's truly useful: I don't think one can set up the index list from the file structure, rather from the tag/category YAML ...
@DavidCarlisle Can do: might be a good plan anyway (I'm trying to get us to a stable structure 'a bit at a time')
 
@JosephWright yes there is that.
@JosephWright perhaps leave the file move for a bit, having the toc auto generated would be good as it would make it easier for people to contribute new questions if you just need to add one file with a metadata at the top that makes it get slotted in
 
@DavidCarlisle Exactly
@DavidCarlisle Still looking at styles: try out my fork
 
9:46 PM
@JosephWright yes I noticed it looked a bit different:-)
@JosephWright I'm down to single figure broken links I think (I'll re-run the link check in a bit)
 
@DavidCarlisle Cool
 
 
2 hours later…
11:35 PM
@Hi Prof. Can you help me for this question please?
0
Q: Change the part of the appendix with letters of the alphabet

SebastianoIn relation to my previous question in this link Change part with arabic number, I would to obtain, using the Legrand orange book source and his structure.tex file, an appendix (in italian language) done only with the letters of the alphabet. So for example: The several parts, different from...

@egreg I have been changing my question for three hours but with my long code I can not get what I want. Thank you. I'm going to sleep that tomorrow I'm at school. Hello
 
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