TeX, LaTeX and Friends

Paulo Cereda

12:06 AM

@ArTourter Hats off to Slackware! I miss the good old days. :)

antoniov.joel

5:51 AM

Hi everyone

Somone know where I can get a sample of a book math AMS-LATEX?

David Carlisle

6:40 AM

@antoniov.joel not sure what you mean exactly texdoc amsbook gives fairly full description of the ams classes including amsbook

antoniov.joel

6:57 AM

@DavidCarlisle I saw that amsbook-template.tex, but you know.. I'm getting trouble about undestand it, anyway.. I'll keep try to understand it

David Carlisle

@antoniov.joel there are dozens of examples on this site you could start from see tex.stackexchange.com/search?q=amsbook

Henri Menke

9:02 AM

0

Q: How to write this Digamma Symbol in Latex?

Specifically I want to write these in LateX: http://shapecatcher.com/unicode/info/120779 http://shapecatcher.com/unicode/info/989 http://shapecatcher.com/unicode/info/401 I am using TeXstudio, so I can compile in pdflatex, xelatex, or lualatex and some other ones. What is the simplest possible...

The OP is being very rude in the comments.

Ulrike Fischer

9:24 AM

@HenriMenke Yes. So why did you answer?

Henri Menke

@UlrikeFischer I'm almost sure that this is not the answer he wants.

@UlrikeFischer I should have posted a Plain TeX solution.

Christian Hupfer

@HenriMenke The O.P. should be more polite ;-)

Torbjørn T.

10:25 AM

@DavidCarlisle Yeah sorry, was too lazy this morning.

David Carlisle

@TorbjørnT. :-)

egreg

10:42 AM

@HenriMenke Left a comment and a downvote

Henri Menke

1:02 PM

@egreg OP accepted my answer and deleted all of his comments.

@esdd Why did you give all your points away on TeXwelt?

@esdd Thanks, by the way ;)

Maïeul

1:17 PM

I have found a bug in TeXLive 2016 which seems to be related to XeTeX engine… I suppose I should wait TeXLIve2017 to get corrected version?

Joseph Wright

1:30 PM

@Maïeul Engines can be updated during the year: depends on the nature of the issue

@Maïeul Demo?

Maïeul

github.com/josephwright/csquotes/issues/8

Joseph Wright

@Maïeul New XeTeX has more classes: you need 4095 not 255

Maïeul

how. and what happens if using 255 ?

Joseph Wright

@Maïeul 255 is now just some normal class and will in your demo not have any chars in it, so you won't see anything

Maïeul

hum

so the issue should be solved on polyglossia and not on on csquotes ?

all 255 must become 4095 ?

Joseph Wright

1:38 PM

@Maïeul Yes, or better a token that represents the concept (so you can set it to the appropriate value as required)

Maïeul

yes, I saw E. Gregori open an issue on this point

many thanks

you can close

Joseph Wright

@Maïeul \chardef\xetex@boundary@interchar = 4095 or similar

@Maïeul Ah, I see @egreg suggests something akin to this

Maïeul

many thanks

I hope this will be released quickly

Joseph Wright

@Maïeul There will be quite a bit of post-TL'16 release activity I suspect

@Maïeul We've got a kernel update for the same thing

Maïeul

@JosephWright I suspect too. I hope Martin will have time

the problem was for me that the latest version of biblatex in TeXLive 2015 was buged… so I do quickly to TeXLive 2016… and

egreg

3:48 PM

> ls /usr/local/texlive/
2007/		2009/		2011/		2013/		2015/		texmf-local/
2008/		2010/		2012/		2014/		2016/		texmf.local/

6

Joseph Wright

@egreg Show-off

Alan Munn

Neil Sedaka - Breaking Up Is Hard To Do

►

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle I'll update the test file for L3 later today for TL'16

Paulo Cereda

> Or you think? How fast is this man typing? Does egreg have a chip in his brain directly sending his thoughts to the Your Answer interface? He types an answer faster than i can read the question. Leave an upvote.

@Johannes_B: ^^ :)

@egreg No future releases? :D

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Was thinking 'Why hasn't Travis picked up the new release' then realised I have a check in the script so it will only look for an entirely new install when I delete the cache

StrongBad

4:00 PM

@egreg how do you deal with updates during the year? Are the packages in 2015 the DVD version or the last version you could download?

Joseph Wright

@StrongBad I have a similar set up and have the 'final' versions

@StrongBad I.e. at the end of the cycle, not the DVD ones

StrongBad

@JosephWright presumably, at least for Linux, if you could get the DVDs, getting the "first" version would be easy.

barbara beeton

@DavidCarlisle, @JosephWright -- i've been advised of a broken link to tex.ac.uk/CTAN/latex which was intended as a pointer into latex3 information. what is the best replacement for this? (ctan search does have a "latex3" category which lists the various packages released so far, but maybe something a little more general is wanted; the original link is on the page ams.org/tex/what-is-latex .)

Joseph Wright

@StrongBad There's a historical archive of all of the TL versions: it has the DVD images + the final 'download' updates

@barbarabeeton tex.ac.uk/faq/FAQ-LaTeX3.html?

barbara beeton

@JosephWright -- looks pretty good, thanks. but it could use some refreshing -- last updated february 2012.

Joseph Wright

4:08 PM

@barbarabeeton Yes: we can alter the sources, though I'm still to agree with @StefanKottwitz and @PauloCereda how best to actually update the live version

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright Oh no!

egreg

@StrongBad Yes, all fully updated

@StrongBad I also have the DVDs

barbara beeton

@JosephWright -- a never-ending problem. hope you can come to agreement expeditiously.

David Carlisle

@barbarabeeton as soon as @PauloCereda's finished his thesis

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle Does NAG employ ducks?

Johannes_B

4:16 PM

@PauloCereda sounds familiar :-)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda I don't see anything in here that says you have to be human

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ooh and the duck knows Fortran!

egreg

@PauloCereda Would you like having @DavidCarlisle as the boss? ;-)

Paulo Cereda

@egreg oh my!

David Carlisle

@JosephWright or even \e@alloc@intercharclass@top

Joseph Wright

4:22 PM

@DavidCarlisle Yes, I know

David Carlisle

@JosephWright do we have a plan to release that.... (I had forgotten about it with all the luatex and ho-tex changes)

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Doesn't seem so at the moment :-)

David Carlisle

@JosephWright am I seeing right thing that warwick mirror is seeing tl2016 but no updates from pretest state yet?

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Yes

@DavidCarlisle Updating some Travis-CI things, it seems the rest of the mirror network is behind Warwick anyway: getting TL'15 there still :-)

David Carlisle

@JosephWright probably after updates start we should push out a new update.

Joseph Wright

4:25 PM

@DavidCarlisle I chekced first thing today:-)

@DavidCarlisle Yup

David Carlisle

@JosephWright Karl's not announced it yet:-)

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle I have to fix some siunitx stuff (getting a lot of messages on c.t.t: rather odd)

David Carlisle

@JosephWright oh I see tl2016 is announced on ctan-ann/c.t.t I thought he'd say something on texlive list:-)

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle ctan.org/mirrors/mirmon shows Warwick is one of the most up-to-date mirrors :-)

@DavidCarlisle Not from KB, though

@DavidCarlisle I suspect he's waiting for the mirroring: certainly the US mirrors at the moment are still hosting TL'15

David Carlisle

@JosephWright color grouping siunitx question looks wrong (mbox redef) haven't looked at the code though:-)

Joseph Wright

4:32 PM

@DavidCarlisle Yes, I need to check on that

barbara beeton

@JosephWright -- announcement by karl on ctan-ann this morning: "TeX Live 2016 has been released. It is now or will be soon available from CTAN sites (mirror.ctan.org/systems/texlive). Package updates will resume in another day or two."

Joseph Wright

@barbarabeeton Ah

David Carlisle

@JosephWright I was going to push out graphics and tools, but I suppose with the xetex thing we should just update everything and have a new ltnews26 (that would be three this year..) or we could call it a patch release so avoid having ltnews26 but it's not really a bug fix, catching up with engine changes.

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Three releases is fine with me: with online updates there's no reason not to, and engine changes do dictate responses

barbara beeton

4:48 PM

@JosephWright -- with the way things are going, anyone for four?

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle I can help writing duck jokes!

yo'

5:10 PM

@barbarabeeton I hope I'm being correct here: groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.text.tex/efgxsS6eL4w

David Carlisle

@JosephWright sure it just means that someone has to fill out a page of news to describe a one line change to the upper limit for xetex char classes:-)

barbara beeton

@yo' -- oh, gad! that has to be webster's online, which i have begun to dislike. the paper third international has "pro-cess" for verb, and "process" (no hyphen) for noun. my desk dictionary (webster's collegiate, based on 2nd international) has "pro-cess" for verb, and "proc-ess" for noun. things are changing, and i'm not sure i'm in favor in this case.

Paulo Cereda

@UlrikeFischer: Amazing photos!

@barbara: is it possible to include some note in the next TB editorial about the TeX donkey contest? Ulrike has posted some nice photos. :)

yo'

@barbarabeeton honestly, the variant where "process" is treated as "record" makes sense to me, but that's me, a non-native speaker :)

barbara beeton

@PauloCereda -- should be possible, but it won't happen until fall or later. (not sure yet whether there will be an ordinary "editorial notes" in the proceedings issue; there usually isn't.)

Ulrike Fischer

5:24 PM

@PauloCereda Thanks. Did you saw how Paul rearranged his code?

Paulo Cereda

@UlrikeFischer Oh my!

barbara beeton

@yo' -- yes, and that's the whole point: to clarify the text. you don't really care unless it's broken at the end of a line, but there, when it's broken the "wrong" way, it can lead to all sorts of confusion. i'm for clarity.

yo'

@barbarabeeton also, in English English it would be pro-cess regardless of the part of speech, if I understand things correctly

barbara beeton

5:41 PM

@yo' -- you do understand this correctly.

David Carlisle

6:26 PM

@egreg it's lucky I'm fluent in Italian:-)

Perfetto funziona, grazie mille: non sapevo si potesse leggere direttamente i byte — DPD- 3 mins ago

yo'

@DavidCarlisle you should have replied "switch to the now very stable lualatex"

David Carlisle

@yo' Vai fondo della classe, e tacere.

yo'

6:42 PM

@DavidCarlisle you made it wrong, I'm not @egreg...

user147690

Hello guys, quick question:

user147690

in Mathematics, 4 mins ago, by Alex Clark

I can't see a latex symbol for some reason in the lists, and I can't get it on dextify, it's like a smaller version of $\vee$ in the superscript, like $L^\vee$ (for the dual of an invertible sheaf is the context)

user147690

Smaller and flatter

user147690

Does anyone know this perchance?

yo'

@AlexClark flatter like smaller in height?

user147690

6:45 PM

Like shallower slopes than $\vee$

user147690

Probably same width, but small height

user147690

So yep sorry haha

user147690

Still browsing lists for it haha

user147690

Ahh I may have found it

user147690

$L^\frown$

user147690

6:47 PM

Nope

user147690

Insufficiently zoomed on the latex page

user147690

$L^\sqsmile$

user147690

That's the one(although need a package probably), thanks for your time. (Mnsymbol)

Aaron Hall

Where do you guys keep your latex templates?

Joseph Wright

@AaronHall What are these? I have a few models (more-or-less scripts) for making plots but beyond that ...

Aaron Hall

6:49 PM

I guess I mean style templates?

style files?

I need to get used to editing them.

quick.

yo'

@AlexClark Don't load mnsymbol, it's insane

Try this (it's a dirty trick, but should work):

\documentclass{article}

\begin{document}

\mathchardef\widehatsymbol"0362

$L\widehatsymbol \neq L^\wedge$

\end{document}

user147690

@yo' Insane?

yo'

@AlexClark it's intended for use with Minion fonts, and it changes a lot of things. It's visually incompatible with any other font, IMHO

Aaron Hall

Did I find it? tex.stackexchange.com/questions/1137/…

yo'

@AaronHall yeah, if you mean packages and classes, then this is the answer. If you mean templates, the answer is very different though :) @Johannes_B can give you his opinion :)

David Carlisle

6:52 PM

@AaronHall nowhere (I just use the standard classes, or for specific projects just keep a package with the document)

Aaron Hall

I want to tweak backgrounds and stuff, so I need to create my own styles, right?

Johannes_B

@yo' @AaronHall Don't use templates.

Aaron Hall

ok, I won't!

I do use org-mode to latex.

(is that a template?)

yo'

@AaronHall you don't "need" them, but they can be a good solution

@AaronHall no, that's emacs, an alternative universe :)

Aaron Hall

I have fought tweaking the background color for hours on end from org-mode. No worky.

yo'

6:55 PM

@AaronHall well, org-mode is one of these semi-automation tools, right?

user147690

@yo' Yep, looks great :D

user147690

Thank you

Johannes_B

@AaronHall Org-mode is not, but speaking in general, we don't know what a template is.

Templates are a mystery.

Aaron Hall

ok. I... ok.

yo'

@AlexClark well, if you switched font, you might need to change the number as well, to whatever shows in the terminal/log after issuing \show\widehat (the trick is basically to use the symbol for the wide hat accent, but not as an accent)

Johannes_B

6:58 PM

@yo' A friend gave me six of her old phones. One of them is a touch thingy thing. And i noticed .... all my contacts, all my phone numbers, almost everything, was stored on my old phone, not the sim-card.

yo'

@Johannes_B yeah, that's a common problem. I actually solved it by duplicating all the contacts (the old phone allowed for it). Still, the provider's salesguy didn't bring them correctly from the old SIM to the micro/nano-SIM I needed, so it was a bad luck. But anyway, I decided to backup them from the old phone one-by-one into a sheet, so I was saved.

I love this work. I got a phone call today that I'm needed in a jury on Thursday, when I'm supposed to supervise exams. Also, I got a 60-page work (today) that I should review until Thursday.

Johannes_B

@yo' I can't connect to the old phone. Everything lost.

@yo' Busy week? ;-)

yo'

@Johannes_B that sucks :(

@Johannes_B yeah, and then I'm responsible for a weekend scout trip

user147690

7:14 PM

How do I get a flipped version of yours that looks better also @yo'

user147690

I did \newcommand{\fwidehatsymbol}{\mathbin{\rotatebox[origin=c]{180}{$\widehatsymbol‌$}}} But it looks bad, and is probably terrible practice

user147690

I imagine I can fix it by just pushing it upwards, but is this really bad practice?

yo'

@AlexClark it is a bad practice indeed :D I'd say go for asking a question on the site. You can use the code you have above and explain what do you actually need. Call it something like "Inverted hat superscript, like wedge"

user147690

Ahaha

user147690

\raisebox but that seems to do something else,

egreg

7:20 PM

@JosephWright The new menu in TeX Live Utility allows for changing the TeX Live version, but it doesn't allow changing from universal-darwin to x86_64-darwin or conversely :(

Joseph Wright

@egreg Does it? I don't bother with such things :-)

Johannes_B

@yo' Oh my, you can do it ;-)

yo'

@Johannes_B I think I can. Have I mentioned that I've got another student work review due on Friday?

Johannes_B

7:37 PM

@yo' I am pretty sure, that you can do it.

:-)

yo'

@Johannes_B but it's gonna be tough

Johannes_B

@yo' What doesn't kill us, makes us stronger.

Might be a crappy translation of something we say in germany.

yo'

@Johannes_B we say that in Czech, too :)

@Johannes_B seems it exists in English, too, just without the comma :-)

egreg

@Johannes_B Quelo che no strosa ingosa

@Johannes_B Translation: “What doesn't strangle, fattens”.

David Carlisle

Johannes_B

7:49 PM

@DavidCarlisle I've been watching Fawlty towers and Blackadder. Who is this Nietzsche?

:-)

egreg

@Johannes_B A guy who could have spared some consonant.

David Carlisle

@Johannes_B some german bloke. I don't know, I've been studying Italian history recently.

Alan Munn

@DavidCarlisle your answer to the "why doesn't TL rolling update" is a tad ranty...and without the context of reading all the TL/LuaTeX/ lists and chat discussion here, not very easy for someone to understand.

David Carlisle

@AlanMunn "ranty" I thought that was the calm public version:-) people will understand when tl2016 rolls out in the next few days and a reasonably large proportion of documents stop working in luatex

Alan Munn

@DavidCarlisle That's why it was only a 'tad' ranty. And yes, I suspect I'm one of them. I'll probably just switch back the XeLaTeX.

yo'

7:58 PM

@DavidCarlisle There is a reason why I keep many versions of TL :)

yo'

8:22 PM

@Johannes_B This helps :) phdcomics.com/comics.php?f=1824

Aaron Hall

9:06 PM

Nietzsche was a nihilist, right?

OSjerick

9:17 PM

Hi all. I have a little question about xcolor. The package documentation establishes that \colorlet{myblack}{Black} is the same as \definecolor{myblack}{named}{Black}. Why is incorrect to do \definecolor{myblack}{named}{Black!30} if \colorlet{myblack}{Black!30} is correct?

yo'

@OSjerick because there is no color named Black!30, that's already a mixing operator on colors. And \colorlet works because it's allows the color to be computed, i.e., the mixing performed.

Christian Hupfer

@OSjerick named requires a colour name, Black!30 is actually a specific colour already

OSjerick

Obviously Black!30 is not a existent color name, so... Why is the correct way to see colorlet related with definecolor when color is passed as mixture?

yo'

@OSjerick they are not related. AFAIK, the manual only mentions that they behave the same, given the argument is a valid color name

OSjerick

@yo' I understood. Thanks. :-)

David Carlisle

9:30 PM

@OSjerick probably some of the confusion is inherited from color where the distinction between the named color model and the names of colours defined by \definecolor is somewhat blurred at times especially if usenames option is used. (Who wrote that package anyway.....)

OSjerick

@DavidCarlisle It probably is. :-)

David Carlisle

@egreg I learned from a master

egreg

@DavidCarlisle Finally you admit it!

David Carlisle

@egreg there has to be something you are good at.

yo'

9:57 PM

@AaronHall Nihilists do not exist, they say.... :)

Aaron Hall

indeed.

Canageek

@DavidCarlisle Either 1) No one has written better ones yet 2) Old guides still say to use them 3) They were told by older people around them that is what to use, since they've always used it and 4) it comes up in search first

@DavidCarlisle If you really want them to stop, put out an update that generates an error when you compile that asks them to stop. Make it still work if you hit R, but scare them.

David Carlisle

@Canageek people use editors that hide such minor details like errors.

Canageek

@DavidCarlisle really? Most hide warnings, but stop on errors

That I've uesd anyway (AcuTeX, TeXStudio, TeXMaker)

David Carlisle

@Canageek that's not what I see answering questions here, even auctex runs in scrollmode so it doesn't stop on errors (then lets you step through the log)

yo'

10:01 PM

@Canageek if only...

Canageek

@DavidCarlisle Huh, guess it has been a while. Possibly it only stops if it can't go on for some reason?

That or I just break it hard enough that the PDF won't create and assume it stopped >.>

David Carlisle

@Canageek and the question just now where someone asking why references coming out as ? without mentioning begin {figure} matched by end{table}

Canageek

@DavidCarlisle If you REALLY wanted them to stop, break compatibility, but allow them to set IKnowThisIsOutatedAndAmdUsingItAnyway=True

David Carlisle

@Canageek I could use \def\x{\typeout{email egreg to ask how to fix this }\x}\x in the package...

Canageek

@DavidCarlisle I wish someone would update subfigure to get people to stop using it. The "but it works" defense is really annoying

egreg

10:05 PM

@Canageek It's very unfortunate that the author didn't at least add a warning about it.

Canageek

@egreg I'd love it if TeXLive and MiKeTeX made you jump though an extra hoop to install the obsolete tree

CTAN even says "subfigure – Deprecated: Figures divided into subfigures"

egreg

@Canageek Probably the author felt that so many documents used the package, so he didn't want to break them; note that subfig is not fully back compatible with subfigure.

Canageek

@egreg If by not fully, you mean not at all. That is why it is a pain getting lab members to switch.

@egreg But leaving it out of TeXLive without going to specifically check a box for obsolete packages wouldn't break them, just provide incentive not to use it.

egreg

@Canageek There are instructions in the documentation of subfig to make it into accepting \subfigure and \subtable instead of \subfloat, but many users would not take the trouble. And we are still plagued by \usepackage{subfigure}. :(

Canageek

@egreg !!! I did not know that

@egreg I thought the internal syntax was also diffrent.

egreg

10:11 PM

@Canageek Remember that most students get a “template” from their buddies who took it from their buddies…

Canageek

@egreg Exactly. But if it wasn't in TeXLive or MiKeTeX, that would be extra work

@egreg Though knowing the people I work with, they'd then just find an outdated cls file somewhere and copy it to the directory of each new document, like they do with the acs and rsc templates

egreg

@Canageek This way, old documents which legitimately used subfigure before deprecation would not be compilable any more.

Canageek

@egreg Without going to tlgmgr and downloading it by hand, yes

David Carlisle

@Canageek if it's not in texlive tlmgr wouldn't install it?

Canageek

@DavidCarlisle I meant make it optional, like Greek or Omega or whatnot.

egreg

10:16 PM

@Canageek There was a similar problem with caption. At a certain point, the caption2 package was issued, not compatible with the original one. A few years later, a new version of caption mostly solved the problems with back compatibility, so instead of issuing caption3, the author decided to revamp the simpler name. Actually the real package is caption3 and caption2 remains for back compatibility.

Canageek

@DavidCarlisle Then people who need it could get it easily, but most people who don't know better would hit install defaults.

David Carlisle

@Canageek well everything's optional but doesn't everyone use tlmgr update --all that's all I ever use.

Canageek

@egreg Wait, so should I not be telling people to use caption ?

@DavidCarlisle I thought you had to do a fresh install each year?

egreg

@Canageek Don't worry: the good call is \usepackage{caption} (it internally calls caption3, but it is not a user's concern).

David Carlisle

@Canageek yes but during the year do update --all and get everything, I don't try to install/update individual packages

Canageek

10:20 PM

@DavidCarlisle Right, so when TeXLive 2017 came out it would be in the optional tree, and you've have to specifically click an extra checkbox to get it, like you do plain TeX, or the Games Typesetting package.

@DavidCarlisle You could even put in a placeholder package that would print in the output "This package is out of date. Please use subfig instead. If you must use this package it is in the obsolete tree of TeXLive instructions.

David Carlisle

@Canageek I know nothing about checkboxes I just run the installer on the command line and it gets everything as far as i ever remember.

Canageek

@DavidCarlisle From Apt-Get? It is divided into packages. You probably did texlive-full wiki.debian.org/Latex

@DavidCarlisle So if it wasn't included in texlive-full, you had to manually apt-get texlive-obsolete

David Carlisle

@Canageek don't use the system tex, just get the installer from tug

Canageek

@DavidCarlisle It would still be available, but not there all the time

David Carlisle

@Canageek would massively annoy archives like arxiv if packages got removed if not absolutely dangerous

Canageek

10:24 PM

@DavidCarlisle Ahh, I've never tried the cli version of that. You can choose what to install in the GUI one, so I leave out a lot of languages, lautex, xelatex, plain tex, omega whatever that is, etc.

@DavidCarlisle They'd just have to add a flag when they run the installer --includeobsolete or somesuch.

David Carlisle

@Canageek since i only really use tex fro answering questions here it's hard to know in advance what packages I'd need:-)

Canageek

@DavidCarlisle Saves me a lot of download time, I can cut the download by 3/4

David Carlisle

@Canageek compared to downloading the full build system and building luatex from source every day to track new ~~bugs~~ features, download time isn't the main issue...

Canageek

45df

7h3 h3(2+

That was 6dd, s4dden3y was ty*5ng n40bres

Wa5t, 5t 5s st533 ha**en5ng. Any6ne 2n6w what 5s g65ng 6n+

Ok, turning caps lock on and off a few times seems to have fixed it.

Sorry

@DavidCarlisle Took me over an hour last time to download it. Not the full thing, just the 1 GB I need.

@DavidCarlisle There is a reason I asked about finding close geographic mirrors. It was nie when I was 30 min from UWaterloo. Now I have no idea what is close to me.

Nasser

10:45 PM

so many packages at CTAN have not been updated for so long. I wonder if this is normal. I see version 1.0 packages, 10, 15 years ago. And that is it. This for me is little strange. May be the authors are not working on latex any more.

egreg

@Nasser If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

Nasser

@egreg I have not found any software that could not use an improvement somewhere. Otherwise, we all will still be using version 1.0 of windows now ;)

egreg

11:11 PM

@Nasser Not certainly I. ;-)

Canageek

I was using Visio 1.0 up until Windows 7 64-bit broke it

egreg

@Canageek That's a good reason for having to upgrade software: third party software that breaks ours. ;-)

Canageek