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5:02 PM
@JosephWright cool.
 
5:35 PM
@Joseph: now I have Steam, I need friends. :)
 
@ChristianHupfer Seems the answe got undeleted by the system?
 
@PauloCereda I'll active Steam here :-)
@PauloCereda I've logged in (josephawright)
 
@PauloCereda Why am I getting "I'm sorry, but the command from the 'animate' task could not be found."?
I moved my Tex folder (where my .tex files are), but is that it?
 
@JosephWright ooh let me check, hold on. :)
@Alenanno Good question, it's been a while since I wrote version 3. :) Was it working before?
 
@PauloCereda Well yes.
 
5:50 PM
0
Q: Create a titlepage: package .sty

MarcoI would like to create a package (.sty) for a titlepage. I followed this guide https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX/Title_Creation from which I took the following two codes: the first code is the package called columbidaeTitle.sty, the second code is the document where the package, earlier created...

Funny bloke, believes what is written in the wikibook :-)
 
@Alenanno It should work....
I need to investigate further...
 
@PauloCereda Thanks. There's no hurry. It's not something urgent. I was just playing on my own. :D
 
@PauloCereda By the way, you might like the example the user gave above :-)
 
@PauloCereda gog is better! :P
 
6:05 PM
@Johannes_B You mean the non-feedbacker question? If yes: I undeleted my answer
 
@ChristianHupfer How come?
 
@Johannes_B Just for fun?
 
@ChristianHupfer Which one?
 
@ChristianHupfer Well, in that case ... You got my upvote.
@ChristianHupfer I stopped myself from writing something ... golatex.de/…
 
6:44 PM
What the heck is the length \topskip? It is not mentioned in the layout package
 
@StrongBad latex.ltx, set to 10pt
 
@StrongBad It's a primitive parameter: the position of the top baseline.
 
@egreg isn't that \headsep?
 
@StrongBad No.
 
6:46 PM
Oh, the top baseline of the page before the header?
 
@StrongBad That is the space separating the header and the text block; \topskip is the position of the first baseline below the top of the text block.
 
I am never going to understand the page dimensions in LaTeX.
 
@StrongBad \topskip has little to do with the page dimensions.
@StrongBad It's only important when you want to ensure an integral number of lines in the type block.
@StrongBad If you want 30 lines, say, the \textheight should be 29\baselineskip+\topskip.
 
@egreg but if you want the first line to start \baselineskip` below the header, you need to account for \topskip also???
 
For instance, the article class at 10pt has a \textheight of 550pt, so 46 lines, because 45*12+10=550 (and \topskip is 10pt).
@StrongBad Yes, of course.
\headsep should be \baselineskip-\topskip
 
6:53 PM
@egreg ahh, so \headsep should include \topskip
 
@HenriMenke I would be intersted in your opinion concerning golatex.de/viewtopic,p,79658.html#79658
 
7:43 PM
@JosephWright did you understand Reinhard's message on luatex list?
@StrongBad headsep is just a fixed length skip that is always inserted, \topskip is like an initial \baselineskip, it does not specify a length that is added but a target distance for the baseline so if topskip is 10pt and the tallest character in the first line is 9pt high then 1pt space gets added to make the baseline be 10pt below the top, in your case the highest (only) thing on the first line is .4pt high so tex adds topskip-.4pt so the baseline of the rule is \topskip below the top
 
7:58 PM
@DavidCarlisle So if my line is more complicated, I need to figure out its height if I want things to line up.
 
@StrongBad no not normally, that's the whole point of \topskip, it makes things line up automatically unless the first line has unusually large content like an image that is already higher than \topskip, exactly the same as baseline spacing which is preserved unless you put something too big in the line
 
@DavidCarlisle No
 
@JosephWright Ok, not just me then:-)
 
8:17 PM
user image
4
@DavidCarlisle, @egreg: would you approve our 2016 ad?
:)
I thought of a series of ads like this. :)
 
@egreg The comment section on the maketitle using package Q is getting quite long. Do you have recommendations for the example from the wikibook?
@PauloCereda TeX-chat, like a zoo of topics.
 
@Johannes_B Exactly!
@Johannes: Johannes is a nice bloke. But don't mention templates. Visit our chatroom! :)
 
@PauloCereda :-)
 
!!/cricket
 
@Johannes_B Wow, what a friendly guy. He is so insightful and studious.
 
8:22 PM
@DavidCarlisle ooh Psmith is sleeping. :)
 
@Johannes_B \end{irony}
 
@HenriMenke Last answer is from ten minutes ago, did you read that?
 
John uses \bf all the time. We hate John. Visit our chatroom.
 
@Johannes_B The one about him having to fulfill all these super strict formatting requirements in order to not fail?
 
@PauloCereda \ensurechat not \ensuremath
3
 
8:25 PM
@PauloCereda s/\\bf/vim/ s/John/P..../
 
@HenriMenke Last one from Besserwisser, but yes. I decided in my post not to link the notes, but to copy paste the relevant part.
 
@AlanMunn ooh
 
@DavidCarlisle oh
 
@DavidCarlisle Paulo uses vim. What ducks know about editors? Visit our chatroom!
 
@PauloCereda obviously you use vim, you can't even apply a simple regexp replace correctly:-)
 
8:28 PM
@PauloCereda Please, please, make this an official community ad. I will register 100 fake accounts just to upvote this.
 
I don't have the time to do anything about it now, but if anyone knows about this tool, some google app was added directly to the summary list for editors/ides -- it would be good to move this to its own answer and link that tex.stackexchange.com/revisions/339/15
 
@HenriMenke I thought of us creating a series of ads like this one. :)
@HenriMenke <3
 
@JosephWright ah he meant to say it worked, i wonder if I should put a PR to luaotfload to require ltluatex if it detects ltluatex tex definitions but luatexbase table is null? (or I suppose could just always require ltluatex as doing it a second time is a no-op isn't it?
 
@SeanAllred Also it doesn't really seem to meet the criterion of being a LaTeX editor. It's a way to insert LaTeX formatted images in to Google docs.
 
@AlanMunn Like I said, I didn't have time to really look into it :) perhaps it should be rolled back?
 
8:33 PM
@Johannes_B Why didn't you recommend librarian, such that he can write his own bibliography drivers from scratch to make his professor happy?
 
@Johannes_B Sorry, I was away from my computer. Thank you -- I did not see your comments
 
@HenriMenke Never seen this before, have to read the doc.
 
@Johannes_B One of Paul Isambert's packages, i.e. designed for plain TeX.
 
@HenriMenke Seems to be compatible with LaTeX and ConTeXt.
 
@Johannes_B If a package is designed for plain TeX, chances are very good, that it is actually engine independent.
 
8:41 PM
@HenriMenke :-)
 
@ChristianHupfer you find the duplicate, I need to stay here and persuade @PauloCereda of the merits of emacs.
 
@DavidCarlisle Two laboursome tasks ... without perspective of success ;-)
@PauloCereda Looks like: Keep out of here :-P
@DavidCarlisle Ah, Dr. Zoidberg already answered :-P
 
Ell
8:54 PM
Hifolks
I'm having a right nightmare getting pgfplots to work externalized with XeLaTeX >.<
6
Q: Externalising TikZ pictures using XeTeX

Tilo WiklundI'm trying to use TikZ's external library with XeTeX, for example, and I'm running into some issues. Having set external/system call={xelatex \tikzexternalcheckshellescape -halt-on-error -interaction=batchmode -jobname "\image" "\texsource"} (EDIT: as an answer points out I had accident...

I read this question
and it worked for a while
and then I changed something and it stopped working
changing it back didn't help though :/
 
@JosephWright yeh! another unicode engine to test (soon, perhaps)
 
@PauloCereda Is it 300px wide?
 
Ell
okay ignore me it suddenly is working, sorry for the bother!
Okay quick poll: what is the worst thing about *TeX for you? as users
 
@Ell the worst three are \outer, \outer and \outer.
 
Ell
It sounds terrible :V
I am relatively new to latex
Well, I've been using it very rarely for 3 years or so
I just find it just a strange and inconsistent thing
I don't understand the difference between putting parameters in [] and {} besides whatever the package decides to use
 
9:05 PM
@Ell try using it for 30 years (me) or 300 years (@egreg) and then you find it seems quite natural.
 
Ell
I'm sure it does
 
@Ell [] are options so you do not have to use them, {} are mandatory so you can use \documentclass[11pt]{article} you can omit the [11pt] if you don't want that option but if you omit {article} it is an error.
 
@DavidCarlisle I was the main expert of StoneTeX, during the Roman empire.
 
@egreg probably the last version of TeX that you were expert in.
 
@DavidCarlisle Yes, later some blokes from England filled it with bugs.
 
Ell
9:10 PM
I just feel like tex could be done so much better somehow
 
@egreg Chris, we blame
 
Ell
I hate the fact that it takes tex multiple compilations to get things right :P
And that compilation takes so long
I hope latex3 fixes these things
 
@DavidCarlisle I think the initials are DPC, actually.
 
Ell
if it ever exists :V
 
@Ell that is a law of nature if you want to allow forward references.
 
Ell
9:11 PM
@DavidCarlisle Why?
It shouldn't take two tries to get Contents right :S
 
@Ell because you have to see the end of the document to know what to put in a table of contents, and then you need to put that first.
 
Ell
thouhg I suppose as an inexperienced user I'm just being inexperienced
@DavidCarlisle I feel as though tex should just make two passes (and not require two invocations)
 
@Ell of course it should. Systems that seem to do it in one just do two passes without telling you about the first
@Ell just write a shell script or batch file that runs latex twice
 
Ell
Yeah, I could of course, I just see it as a flaw in tex
I'll stop complaining :)
but hey
 
@Ell no, really it isn't. TeX has flaws but that is not one of them:-)
 
Ell
9:14 PM
But what advantage do you gain by exposing the two passes to the user?
 
@Ell if it was being written now you might possibly write it to do two passes in memory but remember the system was written in 1982, it is designed to hold not much more than one page in memory at any time, the idea of holding the whole document in memory would have been crazy.
@Ell If you have errors why keep quiet and do the second pass?
 
Ell
@DavidCarlisle Of course, if there are errors then present them to the user. But I feel that tex is best equipped to know when a second pass is needed
 
@Ell also when does it ever matter? how often do you sit down and write an entire document in one go and only need to run latex once?
 
Ell
For instance at the minute I am calling tex twice each time when sometimes it may only be necessary to do it once
@DavidCarlisle Yeah, I can completely understand it for implementation reasons
 
@Ell latexmk, rubber, emacs, arara lots of systems will automate that if that's what you want so you just hit one button and it runs as often as needed
 
Ell
9:17 PM
I'll have to look into latexmk :)
 
@Ell that is user error, tex can't be blamed for that:-)
 
Ell
@DavidCarlisle Of course. But how am I to know when to call it twice?
 
@Ell if latex types "rerun latex" to the terminal at the end of the run you need to re-run latex, it's not so hard:-)
 
Ell
Oh I see :P
I'm not sure how I missed that one
 
@Ell but as I say it is only an issue if you download a complete tex file from somewhere. when writing a document it shouldn't be an issue at all, just latex once between each edit and cross references will resolve in the end.
@Ell when latex was designed it was quite common to take 15 minutes per page and several hours per document, running it twice just to get the table of contents right after every edit would not have been popular.
 
Ell
9:24 PM
I can certainly understand that reasoning
 
9:40 PM
@DavidCarlisle What's your problem with \outer?
 
@HenriMenke It is the most useless command ever, responsible for more bugs and lost time than any other primitive, and has absolutely no redeeming features, and in particular it just caused me have to re-issue etex.sty again a day after I updated it as someone managed to load it into (e)plain tex where \newbox is outer. Apart from that it's fine;-)
@HenriMenke one of the first things we did when starting to make 2e was to remove all \outer from the format.
 
@DavidCarlisle Do you know of any TeX-hackers tricks involving \outer?
 
@HenriMenke the latex tools bundle has just one instance of \outer (a particularly brilliant and ingenious trick:-)
@HenriMenke the only thing you can do with \outer is generate an error at a point where otherwise tex would have worked without error. there are rather limited use for that.
 
@HenriMenke Oh goodness where to start
 
9:55 PM
Hi all, quick question
is there a good place to go for documentation on \discretionary?
tex.se seems to have buried the google results in questions about the command
 
@EmilioPisanty texbook
 
@EmilioPisanty \discretionary{<pre break text>}{<post break text>}{<no break text>}.
 
@EmilioPisanty or for free texdoc texbytopic page 180
 
Thanks all
 
@JosephWright I suspect jsbox (I so hope he changes that name) is going to end up being as different from xe/luatex as uptex is...
 
10:03 PM
@DavidCarlisle Yes
@DavidCarlisle See my mail
@DavidCarlisle I'm not sure what 'without intermediate PDF output' means: every time you view a file it has to be rebuilt?
@DavidCarlisle As described at present it's not a 'real' Unicode engine from an expl3 POV (no \Uchar, no \Umath..., etc.)
@DavidCarlisle upTeX isn't really a Unicode engine at all, it's just not an 8-bit one ;-)
0
Q: greeting whether we can work these two schemes need all the latex

kassum994 Figure 4 shows an equivalent diagram is one of the amplification degree. Within the electrical scheme (pictured Use option european the environment circuitikz to generate symbols according to the European standard HIGHLIGHTING electronic components. 4) using the following components: R, L, C an...

Oh goody, this again
@DavidCarlisle One for the team meeting I suspect
 
@JosephWright more a JIS engine really I suppose
 
Ell
@JosephWright is he asking if he can use american & european style circuitikz simultaneously maybe?
 
@JosephWright yes my understanding it's very fast and writes straight to the macOS window system calls so avoids a lot of file IO so gets even faster so essentially real time viewing of the tex
 
@Ell This guy has been asking this for what feels like a hundred times.
 
Ell
Ah I see
 
10:09 PM
@DavidCarlisle How do you send it to a friend ...
 
@JosephWright That's why you have a portable laptop.
 
@JosephWright send the tex, I guess (I think it has pdf out, but it seems to be optimised for direct GUI calls)
 
@HenriMenke :-)
@DavidCarlisle I was expecting 'don't have any friends' as a solution ;-)
@DavidCarlisle And all your pictures, and your data files for plots, ...
 
@JosephWright as I say I think it has pdf out, but a major selling point of textures back in the day was the "instant preview" and this seems to be a more modern and more instant version of same feature
 
@DavidCarlisle Yes, I can see that
@DavidCarlisle Like you, I'm a bit worried about having three different Unicode engines to support (presumably at present it's Mac-only, like XeTeX used to be, for font loading, etc. reasons)
 
Ell
10:16 PM
What are we talking about JIS engine? Shift JIS?
 
Hmm, he says system-agnostic. Font shaping worries me.
 
@JosephWright but it's developed by someone out of the loop based on tex90 and using opmac so I haven't a lot of expectation in good answers to your question about xetex/pdftex/luatex compatability
 
@DavidCarlisle Yes, I saw that
 
Ell
Font Shaping can be done by harfbuzz right?
Plus opentype math spec was released october this year
 
@Ell Yes, but it can be done other ways
 
Ell
10:17 PM
so it hopefully won't take them too long to incorporate that
 
@Ell Ho, ho, ho
 
Ell
@JosephWright it was just what came to mind when I saw system agnostic font shaping
 
@Ell welcome to chat multiple crossed threads;-) JIS was refering to uptex (japanese tex variant) @JosephWright and I are discussing jstex a new (not released) tex variant that we haven't seen but the author of it has just posted another announcement
 
Ell
@JosephWright yeah I was going to try to implement it myself a while ago but there was no open spec released (only the microsoft one) so I thought I'd wait
 
@Ell luatex explicitly is not planning to do that
 
10:19 PM
@Ell That's not exactly system-agnotsic: it needs the library to be available on the target architecture (once you get beyond the big three of Win/Mac/Linux that may not be true)
 
Ell
@JosephWright I suppose. I can't think of any platforms that it wouldn't be supported on that one would use tex on though
 
@Ell I'm worrying more about archival stability, I guess (will HarfBuzz be the same in 5, 10, 20, 40 years)
 
Ell
ie, will the output look the same as the output compiled some time in the future?
 
@Ell Yes
 
Ell
Hmm
I suppose that could be an issue
 
10:23 PM
@Ell It's a big (ish) worry with system fonts in general
 
@JosephWright Fork harfbuzz.
 
@JosephWright Is that such a concern still?
 
Ell
What does pdflatex use for font shaping atm?
 
@Ell if you use plain tex and cm fonts you are basically guaranteed bit for bit same output forever.
@Ell it doesn't
 
Ell
@DavidCarlisle I was going to say, I thought it was the job of the pdf viewer
 
10:24 PM
@StrongBad It is if you are a mathematician, not so much if you are me :-)
 
Ell
@DavidCarlisle tex outputs psd, right?
 
@Ell psd?
 
Ell
Hmm. I can't remember. Maybe it's eps
some kind of printer instruction format
 
@Ell TeX90 outputs DVI
@Ell pdfTeX outputs either DVI or PDF
 
10:25 PM
@Ell not really the layout engine needs to know the width of each text fragment so you can't leave shaping to the viewer.
 
@JosephWright I could see it being an issue for publishers also. I don't even archive the packages I use, so in most cases I cannot recompile my stuff from only a few years (never mind get the same output.
 
Ell
So what does pdflatex do currently?
 
@Ell it uses 8bit fonts and tex-specific font metrics (tfm format) so font shaping in the sense of opentype just doesn't happen.
 
@StrongBad Depends what stage you archive at (for my subject area I'm pretty sure it's press-ready PDF)
 
Ell
@DavidCarlisle ah I see
 
10:27 PM
@Ell nearest equivalent is ligatures like ff which are specified in the font metrics, which is a sort of simplified font shaping, perhaps
 
Ell
So what tex engine do you guys use?
 
@Ell pdftex, mostly
 
pdflatex, but xelatex is sooooo good.
 
Ell
I use xelatex
 
@Ell but I don't use tex much for documents (mostly I just use it for testing latex, of which I'm one of the maintainers)
 
10:32 PM
@DavidCarlisle It depends on-wait what?
 
Ell
@DavidCarlisle How come you don't use it for documents?
 
@Ell pdfTeX mainly, XeTeX or LuaTeX if I need system fonts
 
@Alenanno @Ell Are you sure?
 
@HenriMenke Only pdfTeX is truly solid for math mode
 
@Ell because most of my documents I write in XML and generate html
 
Ell
10:33 PM
@DavidCarlisle Is latex really that bad that you have to resort to XML? ;)
 
@HenriMenke xelatex is love, xelatex is life.
 
@Ell note the editors:-) w3.org/TR/MathML
 
10:49 PM
@Alenanno xelatex is extra work for @Joseph and me (but nothing like as much work as luatex:-)
 
yo'
Tip of the day: fancyhdr -- even if you don't plan to use \pagestyle{fancy} and you only want to redefine some standard header styles, call \fancyhf{} to create an "empty" fancy style. It will save you a lot of troubles...
 
Ell
@DavidCarlisle Ah nice
I have been wondering what format harfbuzz would shape math in
text is "easy enough" in that a sequence of codepoints is the only real way to represent the input
I think for maths you would have to use a tree data structure as the input to harfbuzz
 
11:14 PM
@JosephWright Really the same guy?
 
11:41 PM
@Ell Murray would have you use this (although I wouldn't necessarily agree:-) but it was developed for word alongside the OpenType math table unicode.org/notes/tn28/UTN28-PlainTextMath-v3.pdf
 
Ell
@DavidCarlisle Ah that looks neat. I think I've seen it before but never really read into it
what would you use? in your professional opinion
 
@Ell don't know really, for inline math markup probably more like latex which although publised as "unicode text encoding for math" is more commonly known as MS Word math zone linear format. But I don't know enough (or anything really) about technically what harfbuzz is doing there to suggest an input form, or whether that would ever make sense at some point you are always going to need a higher level layout engine above the pure text font shaping, and perhaps math should sit at that level.
 
Ell
Yeah. I have always thought math may need to be a smidge higher than harfbuzz level
 
s/more like latex which/more like latex than that which/
 
Ell
I emailed Behdad a while ago though and he assured me harfbuzz was the place
here is the short thread from a while ago: lists.freedesktop.org/archives/harfbuzz/2015-March/004740.html
 
11:55 PM
@Ell or rather Adam Twardoch did:-) interesting. Possibly in that context something like Murray's tr28 would be the thing to use, if only because it has a unicode badge:-) It would be good if the standard opentype libraries did expose more math table, it might help getting native math rendering in browsers not just in firefox (Fred Wang has done some work on this for webkit/blink but I don't think his patches have landed yet)
 
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