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12:02 AM
@GonzaloMedina LOL
 
12:13 AM
Out of curiosity, guys: do you use WhatsApp too?
 
12:36 AM
Hi. I need some help. I just installed TL on new PC on new Linux installation. I setup the path correctly. TL install went fine with no problem. When I now try to compile a latex file, I get this error

pdflatex report.tex
This is pdfTeX, Version 3.14159265-2.6-1.40.15 (TeX Live 2014) (preloaded format=pdflatex)
restricted \write18 enabled.
entering extended mode
(./report.tex
LaTeX2e <2014/05/01>
Babel <3.9l> and hyphenation patterns for 79 languages loaded.

! LaTeX Error: File `article.cls' not found.
Here is the end of TL installation log
mktexlsr: Done.
setting up ConTeXt cache: running mtxrun --generate ...done
pre-generating all format files, be patient...
running fmtutil-sys --no-error-if-no-engine=luajittex --all ...done
running package-specific postactions
finished with package-specific postactions

 See
   /usr/local/texlive/2014/index.html
 for links to documentation.  The TeX Live web site
 contains updates and corrections: tug.org/texlive.

 TeX Live is a joint project of the TeX user groups around the world;
Let me check one thing. I will right back....
It is not working.

>cat t.tex
\documentclass{article}
\begin{document}

test
\end{document}
>
>which pdflatex
/usr/local/texlive/2014/bin/x86_64-linux/pdflatex
>pdflatex t.tex
This is pdfTeX, Version 3.14159265-2.6-1.40.15 (TeX Live 2014) (preloaded format=pdflatex)
restricted \write18 enabled.
entering extended mode
(./t.tex
LaTeX2e <2014/05/01>
Babel <3.9l> and hyphenation patterns for 79 languages loaded.

! LaTeX Error: File `article.cls' not found.

Type X to quit or <RETURN> to proceed,
or enter new name. (Default extension: cls)
I think my problem is similar to this tex.stackexchange.com/questions/111853/… so I am now looking into it,.....
 
12:56 AM
@Nasser Sorry to ask this basic stuff, but I think it doesn't hurt: output of which tex
Oh sorry, you did that.
Apologies.
 
I found the problem. I had this
export TEXINPUTS=.:$HOME/
in my .bashrc file. I removed it and now it worked !!
How do you like this? I had same thing in my old .bashrc and latex never complained. Now it did. But now I can compile things. This is TL new, 64 bit, new pc, new installation
 
1:12 AM
@Nasser if that is active nothing should work, there is no trailing : so only the current directory and your home directory is searched, it wouldn't even find article
@Nasser oh I just scrolled up and see that was exactly the reported problem:-)
 
1:27 AM
@DavidCarlisle It might have been

export TEXINPUTS=.:$HOME/

that last "/" which was causing the problem. I remember editing this line, and cut stuff off, and left the "/", but I did not think it will matter. Either way, removing this from my .bashrc, now latex is happy. Very strange
 
@Nasser with the / it will stop latex always, without the / it would be OK if $HOME was empty as that would leave a trailing :
 
@michal.h21 are you around? I installed your make4ht on the new pc, but it does not know about the new "-e" option. Very strange. I installed it from git:

git clone git://github.com/michal-h21/make4ht.git

Do I need to do something more? thanks
@DavidCarlisle I see. Yes, it must have been the "/" then. My mistake then. But I removed the whole line, since I do not really need it now.
@michal.h21 see:
>make4ht
setting param packages
make4ht:missing required parameter: filename

make4ht - build system for tex4ht
Usage:
make4ht [options] filename ["tex4ht.sty op." "tex4ht op." "t4ht op" "latex op"]
-c,--config (default xhtml) Custom config file
-d,--output-dir (default nil) Output directory
-l,--lua Use lualatex for document compilation
-s,--shell-escape Enables running external programs from LaTeX
-u,--utf8 For output documents in utf8 encoding
-x,--xetex Use xelatex for document compilation
@michal.h21 I think I found the problem. Please ignore.
OMG!! The speed difference is amazing !! It is like 1000 times faster now. I can't believe how much faster the compilation is now.
Now I can make one large pdf and do not have to break things into small pieces any more.
 
1:43 AM
@Nasser I give you a week and your tex file will be 1000 times bigger and taking as long as before.
 
@DavidCarlisle Quick question, how do I get Latex to ignore the spacing with regard to minus signs?
 
@DavidCarlisle I am now putting all my latex files into one latex file. It will be about 50,000 pages pdf file when done.
 
Like the reverse of \hphantom
 
2:11 AM
@Anthony I think you might be looking for \mathrlap, \mathclap, or \mathllap (depending on required placement), all from the mathtools package.
 
 
7 hours later…
9:23 AM
@HarishKumar Probably you are interested in my new add-on "Floats" (it substitutes "Figures&Tables" and has many new nice features. winedt.org/Config/Tree/Floats.php
@David Oh, no..... I've noticed that you've surpassed me in the yearly rep league. I've been crying all night for that!
 
9:41 AM
@karlkoeller Hi Karl. I already installed it :-)
Thanks.
:-)
@karlkoeller: Just not allowing you to sleep! ;-) How difficult/annoying it is to develop a package manager for winedt that can install/update all these addons from winedt.org? I am talking about package manager similar to the one found in sublime text or emacs.
@karlkoeller: @DavidCarlisle is aiming one more place ahead! ;-)
@StefanKottwitz around?
 
@HarishKumar A today's update has been uploaded with a few improvements. Uninstall the old one and install the new one.
 
@karlkoeller I did already. I am fast you know ;-) Thanks to your mail in winedt group. :-)
 
@HarishKumar I don't know sublime text and emacs, but in WinEdt it will be much difficult....
 
@PauloCereda Yo!
 
@HarishKumar Hi Harish! :)
 
9:56 AM
@karlkoeller I doubted! :(
@PauloCereda Hozit going?
 
@HarishKumar In a hurry as usual, but fine. :) And you?
 
@PauloCereda I am fine too. little engaged with my mother and then children and then work.... :-)
@PauloCereda Enjoying Ph.D.?
 
@HarishKumar Getting a little wackier than usual. :)
 
@PauloCereda More is to come ;-)
 
@HarishKumar LOL
 
10:00 AM
Hi @TorbjørnT.. How are you?
 
@egreg: Fran added this comment to my answer: tex.stackexchange.com/questions/229394/… Any hints on a mutable version? :)
 
@HarishKumar I'm doing good.
 
@PauloCereda Ph.D. is something which can kill. If it doesn't kill, it makes one very strong (like a buffalo, Sorry) :-)
@TorbjørnT. How is your unanswered questions book keeping going? I am really amzed that one can do it like you. :-)
 
@HarishKumar I wrote my own macro expander a few weeks ago. I fear nothing at the moment. :P
 
@PauloCereda So we are growing strong :)
 
10:04 AM
@HarishKumar Hope so. :)
@Harish: I'm still stuck with the arara manual. Hopefully the new version will hit CTAN one day. :)
 
@PauloCereda Good going mate. While it is difficult to stick to time schedule in a Ph.D., one has to some how manage to be in time.
@PauloCereda Is there any thing I can do?
@egreg Good morning Enrico.
@DavidCarlisle Good morning David. You people are sleeping very late these days :-)
 
@HarishKumar Have faith. :)
@HarishKumar Our DST has ended last night, so I won +1 hour. :)
 
@PauloCereda I have lot :)
@PauloCereda What is DST?
 
@HarishKumar Daylight saving time. :)
 
@PauloCereda Oh!. So you have 25 hours a day now ;-)
 
10:11 AM
@HarishKumar I wish. :)
One more hour dedicated to ducks. :)
 
@PauloCereda If I were having that extra hour, I would sleep (which is a luxury for the time being) :-)
 
@HarishKumar Now, yes
 
@StefanKottwitz Just saw your blog. Thought I will try posting few answers if I can. Needed few details like, is there any thing like posting comments for a mwe etc there too. Is there any page that I can read to get familiarised to the site?
Why nobody is talking cricket? Today India South Africa are fighting.
 
@HarishKumar Hi and a very warm welcome from me at LaTeX Community :-)
 
@HarishKumar Yay cricket!
 
10:18 AM
@HarishKumar There's a FAQ, but that's for the forum basis
 
@HarishKumar Huh? What are you talking about?
 
@HarishKumar what is that game? We are only interested in football around here.
 
@HarishKumar The site works like any discussion forum. Posts, requests for clarification, discussion, all in a unsorted (well, by time) way. No comments, no upvotes.
 
@HarishKumar All new features are explained in the Announcement forum
 
@Johannes_B Thanks. I already posted two today. :-)
@TorbjørnT. Your work on the un answered list :-)
 
10:20 AM
@HarishKumar I saw that. In fact, i read (or at least skim) every post.
 
@HarishKumar It's great to see you there again!
 
@StefanKottwitz Looks like a long list. Thanks. I will go through. In case of any doubt, I will ping you or @Johannes_B.
 
@HarishKumar I haven't really done much lately to be honest. If you're referring to that list of questions I made (bitbucket.org/torbjornt/temporary-repo-for-some-links) you'll see that it hasn't changed since august.
 
@DavidCarlisle Foot ball ah! After all that debacle! ;-)
 
@HarishKumar Don't worry, smart human writng plus using the code button is usually already fine. Tags, shortcuts etc. are advanced thingies
 
10:22 AM
@DavidCarlisle We are cricket loving nation. Come on :-)
South Africa 153-5 (33.3)
 
@HarishKumar As people get (if not opted out) a mail, when they get an answer, some will positively surprised to get help to an older anwer and return. In any case, adding a possible solution or advice is positive for incoming googlers
 
@Anthony not sure what the context is but do you mean $1{-}2$ instead of $1-2$
 
@TorbjørnT. Oh!. the same list, but I didn't visit lately. :-)
@StefanKottwitz Sure. Whenevr I am free, I will give a visit. :-)
 
@HarishKumar I think I'd better get @PauloCereda to put your name at the end of Psmith's cricket results:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle hehe I support England though. They need all the encouragement now ;)
@DavidCarlisle The fact is, I don't watch cricket these days. Our players mint money like hell and quite often you know... things go enigmatic :)
Awow South Africa 153-7 (34)
What happend to them?
Good news from here is Almost 70 percent of our Ph.D. students started using latex for their typesetting needs. I am getting happier. :)
 
10:30 AM
@HarishKumar Cool!
 
@HarishKumar ... and the other 30 percent complete their thesis and go on to be awarded a degree?
 
And one of my B.Tech. student typed his assignment in LaTeX and submitted to me. He used exsheets and I was speechless and felt honoured.
@DavidCarlisle It was 100 percent some 4 years ago. :). Yes they do get degree :(
 
@HarishKumar Did he use arara? He better had or else. :)
 
With a bad looking thesis and horrible looking equations. Mathematicians will commit suicide if they see those thesis.
@PauloCereda He used emacs and arara. :P
 
@HarishKumar o.O
 
10:36 AM
One bad thing is.... some of them use lot of google and there comes both good and bad. Next plan is to go for a cleaning and good practices.
May be bad day for SA. South Africa 158-8 (36.2)
 
@DavidCarlisle I have the strange suspect that England is not going so well at the Cricket World Cup.
 
What the... South Africa 161-9 (37.2)
 
23 mins ago, by David Carlisle
@HarishKumar what is that game? We are only interested in football around here.
 
@egreg I think they started packing secretly ;)
And gone... South Africa 177-10 (40.2)
 
11:24 AM
@yo' haven't decided yet. Currently I'm trying not to get frozen in Tromsø. It's a great place. If i survive dogsledding it's gonna be even better.
 
 
1 hour later…
12:35 PM
I nearly answered "Yes: in the upcoming 2015 release, to make @egreg happy"
0
Q: Changing ( and ) to \left( and \right)

Andrew RobertsonAre there any plans to have the LaTeX automatically read all ( and ) to automatically become \left( and \right)? If so, then when can we expect the update?

 
@DavidCarlisle :-)
 
1:23 PM
@DavidCarlisle another drawing question for you vvv:
0
Q: House of Medici symbol

Basilius SapientiaDear Members of Stackexchange. I would like to use tikz to create the original coat of arms of the Medici, Or, six balls in orle gules. Is it possible? Could you please tell me how you would do it? Would you use Inkscape first? Next question: Would it be possible to make the full Coat of Weap...

Desired result so you can get started right away... LOL:
 
1:45 PM
@PaulGessler spot the difference:
Oh I just read the comments on the question @Johannes_B "only an idiot..." :(
 
@DavidCarlisle Only an idiot would redraw the original pic, but only a gunius can improve it ;-)
@PaulGessler I have to state, that my comment is only my personal opinion.
 
yo'
2:18 PM
@percusse sounds cool :)
 
2:45 PM
@JosephWright added myself to the experimental svn post-commit hook as well
 
@DavidCarlisle Cool
 
3:12 PM
@DavidCarlisle Any more thoughts on my case changing ideas?
@DavidCarlisle I'd like to make some progress on this to (finally) deal with \tl_to_lowercase:n
 
@JosephWright No been a bit distracted by includeinrelease questions:-). I need to make myself some test cases i suppose. I don't really have a feel for current l3 module names yet so been keeping out of issues as to whether its string or tl or whatever all quiet on 2e at moment so I could go back and read your mail....
 
yo'
The deeper I dig myself into a documentclass creation, I realize that it's much more complicated (from the design point of view) than I thought. For example: when should I load the packages if there are options (not options of the documentclass) that influence the package loading?
 
@DavidCarlisle Fair enough: I guess I was really trying to get at 'tl is almost certainly wrong so we might want to say that 'this name will change' even if we like the functionality'
@DavidCarlisle I see the 'busy with other stuff' point :-) (I've got a beamer release to do!)
 
yo'
@JosephWright isn't tl the token list? You wanna break all the code people have? :)
 
@DavidCarlisle Need to add a few new :D names to expl3 as well to support ctan.org/pkg/interchar
@yo' A specific case: are you on the LaTeX-L list?
 
yo'
3:17 PM
@JosephWright ummmm not really?
 
ooh `\clist_set:cn { l_interchar_default_chars_1_clist }
{
231A-231B, 23F0-23F3, 2600-2603, 2614-2615, 2618, 261A-261F, 2639-263B,
2668, 267F, 26BD-26C8, 26CD, 26CF-26D1, 26D3-26D4, 26D8-26D9, 26DC,
26DF-26E1, 26EA....` could your unicodedata parser have generated that for him?
 
@DavidCarlisle Yes, given a spec for the data
 
@JosephWright I assume (but haven't checked) they are groupings by the unicode character class fields. probably l3 could have a parsed version of the entire table hanging around to save making arbitrary choices as to what data to throw away on input...
 
@DavidCarlisle I'll perhaps look at that in the week
 
yo'
3:22 PM
@JosephWright cool reading, thanks.
for the naming: I would certainly not write upper_case but it can be just me (and I understand that L3 naming suggests to keep the underscore, however, "uppercase" is just one word)
 
@yo' Two words in my dictionary :-)
 
yo'
@JosephWright ok then :)
 
@yo' The reason it's currently that way is actually more to do with the existing \tl_to_uppercase:n, which we know is 'wrong' but have yet to fix
 
yo'
@JosephWright \tl_to sounds like a modifier, not a lambda function
 
@yo' _to_ is used generally for f-type expandable conversion functions, see e.g. \fp_to_int:n, \int_to_Roman:n, etc.
(which is why \tl_to_uppercase:n is wrong)
 
yo'
3:28 PM
@JosephWright ah ok. But I suppose that \tl_to_uppercase is \edefing inside and performing partial expansion...
 
@yo' Currently \tl_to_uppercase:n is just \uppercase renamed: not only is the name a problem but there is a clash of use cases (TeX's primitive is really more to do with generating odd catcode tokens than changing the case of text)
@yo' This is a long-standing issue
 
yo'
@JosephWright in the end, there'll be "sometimes wrong but expandable" version and "correct but non-expandable" version :D
 
@yo' No
@yo' Or at least not if I can do something about it
@yo' I think I've just about got the behaviour right in what is currently \tl_upper_case:n
@yo' I'm looking for feedback (current code is not yet on CTAN but is likely to go later today)
 
yo'
@JosephWright well, if you manage to make \tl_upper_case:n { Hello ~ \myname } return HELLO TOM, it'll be fine :)
 
@yo' It does :-)
 
yo'
3:32 PM
@JosephWright cool then. Is there a mechanism to protect arguments of a macro? I suppose that \ref and similar are protected against it by default, as well as \selectlanguage, for instance, but what about others?
or do you go the other way around and make the case change ignore groups at all unless they are parameters to a pre-defined set of commands? This is what your mail suggests
 
@yo' Two parts to this. Part 1 is that the code is for expl3 so assumes e-TeX: anything engine protected is left alone. Part 2 is the idea of a 'skip list' of commands that take exactly one arg and are ignored, for example \ref but also allowing creation of something like \NoChangeCase as in the textcase package.
 
yo'
@JosephWright which you'll provide by default?...
 
@yo' Currently out-of-the-box you get both parts with the second part knowing in format mode about \ref, \label, \cite, \ensuremath
 
yo'
and I won't dare ask how's it coded :D
 
@yo' About 500 lines
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{expl3}
\begin{document}
\ExplSyntaxOn
\def\myname{Tom}
\protected\def\Dave{Dave}
\edef\test
  {
    \tl_upper_case:n { Hello ~ \myname \Dave \ref { foo } }
  }
\show\test
\ExplSyntaxOff
\end{document}
gives
 
yo'
3:38 PM
@JosephWright 500 lines for something as simple as \uppercase{Tom}? :D
 
> \test=macro:
->HELLO TOM\Dave \ref {foo}.
l.11 \show\test
@yo' I can see that objection, but it comes down to what do people need
 
yo'
@JosephWright it's actually not an objection, rather a compliment :)
 
@yo' Some of that is for the special cases for e.g. final sigma, i/I in Turkic, ...
@yo' There's the data part too, of course
 
yo'
@JosephWright and ẞ?
 
@yo' Of course
@yo' With XeTeX/LuaTeX
\edef\test
  {
    \tl_upper_case:n { ß }
  }
\show\test
 
yo'
3:41 PM
@JosephWright ah, of course :)
 
> \test=macro:
->SS.
l.11 \show\test
@yo' I've done LICR for pdfTeX but really don't want to get into input encodings and the like
 
yo'
@JosephWright that's not what I expected, I expected ẞ:
Capital sharp s (ẞ) is the contestable majuscule of eszett. Sharp s is unique among the letters of the Latin alphabet in that it has no traditional upper case form. This is because it never occurs initially in German text, and traditional German printing (which used blackletter) never used all-caps. When using all-caps, current spelling rules require the replacement of ß with SS. However, in 2010 the use of the capital sharp s became mandatory in official documentation when writing geographical names in all-caps. == History == There have been repeated attempts to introduce a majuscule ß. Such...
 
@yo' there are a lot of letters in Unicode
 
yo'
:D
 
@yo' No, that's wrong (take it up with Unicode, not with me)
 
yo'
3:42 PM
@JosephWright :D
but that's one of the cases where lowercase(uppercase(original)) != original I suppose
 
@yo' We take the Unicode data for the 'default' changes: there is a mechanism for language-dependent exceptions but at present I've not added one for this case not least as I don't quite know what to call it!
@yo' The Unicode docs make it quite clear that case changing doesn't round-trip
 
yo'
@JosephWright Capital Eszett?
 
@yo' Yes but a language-based exception should be something like tr (Turkish), lt (Lithuanian), nl (Dutch) (They are the three I've got at present)
 
yo'
and with SS (sorry to keep asking), \tl_mixed_case:n { ß }?
 
@yo' Ss
 
yo'
3:44 PM
@JosephWright ok. Well, AFAIK ß is never at the beginning of a word, is it? @ChristianHupfer
 
@yo' See SpecialCasing.txt
 
@cfr: I know about the emulation of enumerate, (and shortlabels option), I was just angry ;-)
 
@yo' No, the point is made in the docs that this is not a 'real' case but still is included in the data file so we do have it
@yo' List of special cases is very short
 
yo'
@JosephWright which is probably correct.
you really meant this file?
[tohecz@toheshiba ~]$ locate SpecialCasing.txt
/usr/share/perl5/unicore/SpecialCasing.txt
 
@yo': No, ß can never occur at the beginning of a word, online in between or at the end, unless the usage is wrong, of course
 
3:46 PM
@yo' Yes, or in my case the 'live' one downloaded from the Unicode website
 
@yo' that's an old version but yes
 
yo'
@DavidCarlisle you're using Firefox which has been will be released in 2019, so I'm not surprised you call everything else 'old' :D
 
@yo' Better example is \tl_mixed_case:nn { nl } { Ijmuiden }
 
@yo' Try \directlua{print(unicode.utf8.upper("ß"))} :-)
@ChristianHupfer Yes, but the Unicode data still includes this rather odd case :-)
 
yo'
3:50 PM
@JosephWright because you don't wanna \uppercase{ß} to kernel panic :D
 
@yo' Upper case is fine, it's mixed (title) case that's tricky
 
@JosephWright: Unicode sucks ;-)
2
 
@yo' BTW, I do hope to cover the Eszett business but like I say need a 'proper' name
 
yo'
@JosephWright you don't like eszett, Eszett and ESZETT?
 
@yo' Not really: would have to be de-<something> to reflect the fact it's a language-dependent change
 
yo'
3:53 PM
@JosephWright why not de-eszett? or I maybe I lose your point...
 
@yo' Usually exception rules are to do with language and/or location, not what the rules themselves are at 'implementation' level (the fact it's to do with Eszett isn't the point, it's the fact the idea's coming in for German use in ... where I don't know what goes in the dots!)
@yo' For example, Swiss German doesn't use Eszett so it doesn't apply there
 
yo'
@JosephWright ask this guy:
 
Germans like those eszet ... :D
 
yo'
EẞET!!! :D
 
@yo @JosephWright: So much for unicode ... nothing can beat Eszet - Schnitten :D
 
4:00 PM
@yo' At some stage I will have to pursue this, but first want to be sure the general idea works :-)
 
yo'
@JosephWright it's a minor things. IMHO the number of people who know ẞ is smaller than the number of people who have seen it in this chat room :)
 
@yo' Possibly
 
4:15 PM
Question: is embedding unicode directly inside LaTeX an option? Case in point: I was just looking for a latex symbol for c/o. There is a LaTeX one. But there is also a site question with people coming up with pure LaTeX solutions.
Apologies if that is a dumb question.
 
@FaheemMitha yes that's what inputenc does for pdftex or xetex and luatex are native unicode
 
@DavidCarlisle Oh. Ok, I'll look for that then.
I'm using regular pdflatex right now. I wonder if there is a downside in moving to xelatex.
 
@FaheemMitha in the \usepackage[utf8]{inputenc} case that lets you input the characters but you need to have a font with them in.
@FaheemMitha there are up and down sides.
 
@DavidCarlisle Oh. Can I mix fonts?
 
@FaheemMitha do your current documents only have one font?
 
4:18 PM
My default is the new century schoolbook implementation by fouriernc
 
@DavidCarlisle: You're provoking a question : What are the up and downsites of XeLaTeX? ;-)
 
@DavidCarlisle yes
as far as I know.
 
@FaheemMitha no italic, no bold, no math no tt ?
 
I like new century schoolbook better than the default.
@DavidCarlisle Oh, sorry, yes, I occasionally use bold and italics, and also \emph, which is usually italics.
 
@ChristianHupfer it would get closed as dup:-)
 
4:20 PM
@DavidCarlisle: Damn.... I wanted to post a huge - going - to the roof - question with 5000 upvotes ;-)
 
There is:
87
Q: Drawbacks of XeTeX/LuaTeX

Mateus AraújoCurrently I use pdflatex to process my documents, but I want to be with the cool kids and switch to XeTeX or LuaTeX. My documents are moderately multilingual (main text in portuguese or english, quotations and references in english, german, french, russian and greek), but nothing that pdflatex ca...

Though the answers aren't that informative.
 
@FaheemMitha for example if you convert your document to xelatex you couldn't submit it to the AMS as @barbarabeeton would reject it as not being proper latex (or something:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle well, I don't think I've ever submitted anything to the AMS, so that is probably not an issue.
One answer says xelatex uses it's own pdf engine. That seems like wasteful duplication of effort.
 
@FaheemMitha but the same is true of more or less anywhere.
@FaheemMitha why?
 
@DavidCarlisle because duplication is wasteful? :-)
 
4:24 PM
@FaheemMitha XeTeX uses the xdvipdfmx driver to create a PDF from a .xdv file, perhaps that's what you mean
@FaheemMitha What duplication?
 
@JosephWright dunno, I was going by the answer.
2
A: Why choose LuaLaTeX over XeLaTeX?

Wolfgang JeltschI agree with Xavier on the first two points. Another advantage of LuaTeX over XeTeX is that LuaTeX uses the PDF engine of pdfTeX, while XeTeX uses its own one. One consequence of this is, that all features of the PGF graphics package (on which TikZ builds) should be available also under LuaTeX, ...

"LuaTeX uses the PDF engine of pdfTeX, while XeTeX uses its own one."
@JosephWright that duplication ^^.
 
@FaheemMitha well (a) I can't see where an answer says that and why do you think it would be duplication, duplicating what?
 
@DavidCarlisle see above. "LuaTeX uses the PDF engine of pdfTeX, while XeTeX uses its own one. Isn't that duplication of effort?
Duplicating the PDF engine.
 
@FaheemMitha I can't find this line anywhere
 
@JosephWright In that answer I just posted above.
 
4:27 PM
@FaheemMitha I can't see that on the page you refered to originally
@FaheemMitha that is a different page!
 
@FaheemMitha Well that's not true, so ...
 
@DavidCarlisle So it is. Sorry about that.
I guess I opened two questions at the same time.
 
@FaheemMitha XeTeX uses a different driver from pdfTeX/LuaTeX in PDF mode, but then that's no different from pdfTeX in DVI mode so ...
 
@FaheemMitha xetex is an extension of etex (there is a clue in the name) so it makes dvi same as etex does then requires a dvi driver like dvipdfmx same as etex does if you want pdf
 
@JosephWright that is a mis-statement then?
 
4:28 PM
@DavidCarlisle Lies-to-children :-)
 
@JosephWright shut up.
7
 
@DavidCarlisle :-)
@FaheemMitha Yes: it's not true
 
@JosephWright Ah, someone should add a correction then. Not me, obviously.
 
yo'
@JosephWright :-)
 
@JosephWright is quibbling because xetex actually makes a modified extended dvi format (but xdvipdfmx can understand it so it is basically the same as the traditional dvi workflow)
 
4:30 PM
@yo' You work on the LaTeX team long enough you learn all of this tricky stuff
 
yo'
now we should invite new people to the chat. They'll look into the right panel and finally understand what's the TeX.SX friendliness and politeness about :)
3
 
@DavidCarlisle: sorry for the late email reply, I was having lunch in a restaurant, eating a lot of fish. :) No sharks. :)
 
@yo': Friendliness? I feel mobbed everyday here :-P
 
@ChristianHupfer Das peer pressure! :)
Böse enten everywhere. :)
 
@PauloCereda: Das useless comment :-P
 
4:32 PM
@ChristianHupfer <3
 
Chat is getting sillier and sillier today :D
 
yo'
@JosephWright should I use L3 naming scheme for internal macros defined e.g. by titlesec's \titleformat or is it preferable to use L2e name with @ for that?
 
@yo' If the code is essentially tied to existing L2e packages then stick with @
 
@JosephWright unless you want to name a base :n function and then make variants of it, perhaps.
 
yo'
@JosephWright ok, and a quick question: is there a simple way to separate an argument #1={abc}{def} into #1={abc} and #2={def}, or should I use \@firstoftwo and \@secondoftwo
 
4:36 PM
@DavidCarlisle Fair enough
 
yo'
@DavidCarlisle you can still make a wrapper for that :)
 
@yo' Well we have \use_i:nn/\use_ii:nn for the same purpose
 
yo'
@JosephWright but I'll need the \expandafter's equivalent somewhere, no?
 
@yo' I'll need a bit more context :-)
 
yo'
What would be the equivalent of \def\aaa#1{FIRST:\@firstoftwo#1 SECOND:\@secondoftwo#1}
 
4:38 PM
@DavidCarlisle -- actually, a document requiring xelatex probably wouldn't even get to me. it would go through the normal submission process, it probably wouldn't run without errors, and would go to one of my colleagues to repair. (unless they're all awol when such a problem arises, i get to stay in my own corner and communicate only with authors, concoct tests to verify bug reports, and write documentation. xetex isn't a bug, but it's beyond the present capabilities of the ams production stream.)
 
yo'
\documentclass{minimal}

\def\aaa#1{FIRST:\@firstoftwo#1 SECOND:\@secondoftwo#1}
\edef\bbb{\aaa{{abc}{def}}}

\show\bbb %FIRST:abcSECOND:def
 
@barbarabeeton yes probably, I was going to write "if you submit to a journal" but I saw your square fly in just as I was writing, so I reworded to include you:-)
 
@yo' \cs_set:Npn \aaa #1 { FIRST: \use_i:nn #1 ~ SECOND: \use_ii:nn #2 }, so really no difference at all ;-)
 
yo'
@JosephWright well, you pass only one thing #1 to \use_i:nn in some sense, so I wasn't sure
 
@yo' Depending on the real use of course this might be \tl_head:n/\tl_tail:n
 
4:42 PM
@DavidCarlisle -- i thought you couldn't tell the difference between us squares.
 
@barbarabeeton I learn
 
@yo' The \use:... functions are 'allowed' to be (ab)used like this as it's a key part of working with TeX
 
yo'
@JosephWright it's really directly that \@...oftwo: I need to pass two arguments through something that allows only one :) sort of a layering of protocols
 
@JosephWright speaking of xetex did you see the tikzmark question?
 
yo'
and does xparse has a direct equivalent of \@dblarg? Because this way, I'll have 4 cases :-/ not too bad still...
 
4:46 PM
@yo' Nope
 
@barbarabeeton do you work for the AMS?
 
@yo' \use_i:nnnn, etc.?
 
@FaheemMitha she's only been there a little while
 
So, how could one tell if a particular font supports unicode symbols?
 
yo'
@FaheemMitha LOL. barbarabeeton does not, but Barbara Beeton certainly does.
 
4:47 PM
@DavidCarlisle Oh? How little?
Hmm, I think there is an interview somewhere...
 
@FaheemMitha since 1962 according to linked-in
 
@FaheemMitha -- yes, i do. i've been here since a year after i graduated college. @DavidCarlisle may think it's only been a little while, but it does predate the existence of tex.
 
@JosephWright I am gone for one hour and you guys start to talk about u+1e9e?
 
@DavidCarlisle Oh.
 
@Johannes_B :-)
 
4:50 PM
@JosephWright May i ask, in which way uppercasing this letter comes around? I sincerly hope, there is some kind of user-switch to opt-out double s.
 
@FaheemMitha If you are using the font with pdftex it doesn't (or at least doesn't support them via their unicode number)
 
@yo' -- ah! somebody around here who can (and does) read!
 
@DavidCarlisle how about inputenc?
 
@Johannes_B At present it doesn't, which is where the question started. The test code I've got for Unicode-based case changing follows the Unicode data files, and they map ß to SS. However, they make it clear that variations are allowed for local situations, which is what does need to be covered
@Johannes_B I take it you are not so keen?
 
34 mins ago, by David Carlisle
@FaheemMitha in the \usepackage[utf8]{inputenc} case that lets you input the characters but you need to have a font with them in.
 
yo'
4:52 PM
@barbarabeeton :)
 
I thought there was a TeX Talk interview with Barbara, but I'm not finding it now.
Only finding a TUG interview.
 
@FaheemMitha pdftex only allows fonts with 256 character so to cover the thousands of characters in unicode you need to load lots of fonts. inputenc allows the unicode input to be recognised but then you need to define that to some tex construct that selects some character out of some font. For reasons of space most slots are initially undefined.
 
@JosephWright i am just searching the mail, doubt to find it. There is no capital ß for historic reasons ( i think it was also mentioned in the video linked by @yo). I once asked at some official site and they said, that once the capital ß is in general use, it will officially make its way to the german alphabet.
 
@DavidCarlisle Oh, that sounds like a lot of overhead.
 
@JosephWright City names and stuff like that, shall be written with the capital ß by now. @clemens once mentioned it here as well
 
4:55 PM
@Johannes_B Yes I saw that
@Johannes_B The thing is, that only applies in Germany :-)
(I.e. you can have all the 'rules' you like but people do all sorts of things)
 
@JosephWright Those idiots :-)
 
@PaulGessler: BBC's Sherlock fully deployed in my computer. :)
 
@FaheemMitha It is but if you want to be able to type non ascii characters then it's a price you have to pay. The overhead is only a problem for people maintaining the code base not really for people typing documents
 
@JosephWright When did we start talking about templates? :-D
 
@PauloCereda: Benedict Cumberbatch as Sherlock? ;-)
 
4:57 PM
@DavidCarlisle I see. I'll shelve that for now, then. Unless I decide to try xelatex.
What is this about Sherlock?
 
@ChristianHupfer Yep. :)
 
@PauloCereda: I was at the cinema recently, watched Imitation Game, also with Cumberbatch, playing Alan Turing ...
 
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