@AlanMunn so you are tonight's kern expert: compare and contrast in less than 1000000 words:

\tracingoutput1
\tracingonline1
\showboxbreadth\maxdimen
\newcount\zz\zz=16
\font\x=ecrm1000
\x
\setbox0\hbox{%
\loop\ifnum\zz<20
   \char\zz
   \advance\zz 1
\repeat}
\showbox0
\box0
\setbox0\hbox{%
\char16 \char17 \char18 \char19 }
\showbox0
\box0

\bye

@DavidCarlisle Weird.

9999999 words left.

@DavidCarlisle Where are they coming from?

@DavidCarlisle Here's a cute quote from TeX by Topic: "Kerning in TEX is controlled by information in the tfm file, and is therefore outside the influence of the user. The tfm file can be edited, however (see Chapter 33)" :)

@DavidCarlisle Is the problem the presence of the kerns in the loop or their absence in the straight input?

@DavidCarlisle An assignment between two characters…

@DavidCarlisle This should show no kern in the first box!

@DavidCarlisle And, indeed, if the font is cmr10, no kern is used in both instances. Weird.

@DavidCarlisle Note that the following has no kern in the first instance, but a kern in the second one

\setbox0\hbox{A\advance\zz1V}\showbox0
\setbox0\hbox{\char`A \char`V}\showbox0

@DavidCarlisle Look at ecrm1000

   (LABEL O 27)
   (KRN O 20 R 0.083313)
   (KRN O 21 R 0.083313)
   (KRN O 22 R 0.083313)
   (KRN O 55 R 0.083313)
   (KRN O 140 R 0.083313)
   (KRN O 47 R 0.083313)
   (STOP)

There's also (BOUNDARYCHAR O 27), of course.

The assignment \advance\zz1 counts as boundary.

@DavidCarlisle Did I win something?

@egreg Maybe David's respect...

@FaheemMitha That's quite unlikely. ;-)

LOL

@egreg Is there any way to change the code to make it not appear as one? Or is that an incoherent question?

@AlanMunn With LuaTeX.

With LuaTeX the first box is shown as

> \box0=
\hbox(6.8872+1.94397)x15.55176, direction TLT
.\x ^^P
.\x ^^Q
.\x ^^R
.\x ^^S

@egreg So is this a bug or a feature?

@AlanMunn A feature. It has been in TeX from start.

The boundary char feature has been added in TeX3, of course.

@egreg TeX3?

@FaheemMitha TeX had three main releases: TeX 78 (or TeX 1) was the first, but it got fully rewritten becoming TeX 82 (or TeX 2). Then some multilingual features were added in 89, for TeX version 3.

@egreg Oh. I knew there was a new version in 82. I didn't realize (or remember) that there were significant additions in 89.

Does a keyval-based wrapper for the AMSLaTeX packages exist? Would one be appreciated?

@DavidCarlisle Found any more LuaTeX 'features' in the last 8 hours?

@JosephWright Are you guys trying to rewrite LaTeX in LuaTeX or something?

@David: my thesis on macros is getting shape!

@PauloCereda Word Macros? ;-)

@ChristianHupfer Spot the looney. :)

@PauloCereda This is my theory on Word Macros: They are weird. Period!

@ChristianHupfer Anne Elk's is better. :P

@PauloCereda But it's mine! It's my theory! And it's shorter!

I am hungry.... Going to the nearby bakery...

@ChristianHupfer <3

@ChristianHupfer ooh Black Forest cookies!

@PauloCereda: Buttered croissant for you? Anybody? German Pretzels? Hm, delicious

@ChristianHupfer Everything!

@PauloCereda Expect the Pretzel mail in a few minutes :-P

@ChristianHupfer ooh

@PauloCereda Somehow the Pretzels refuse to be sent by mail ;-)

@ChristianHupfer oh no! :)

@PauloCereda And somehow they are talking to me: Eat me, Eat me!

@ChristianHupfer German-speaking pretzels, that's pretty scary. :)

@PauloCereda Everything is scary in Germany :D

@ChristianHupfer ooh

Das pretzel! :)

@DavidCarlisle One for you to get off the ua list? tex.stackexchange.com/questions/251141/…

@FaheemMitha No

I was wondering if this licensing debate is really necessary.

The following is a dupe for sure. I skimmed the often referenced questions, but did not see an obvious candidate. Can somebody add it and vtc as dupe for the below one?

@JosephWright no I set off a build after Akira said texlive had been updated, but then went to bed:-) But just looked now at the results:( back to 40 failures so looks like I need to put back my "temporary hacks" as I'd got down to 19

@egreg yes I realised later that's what it was, so this comes into "known differences rather than "bug" for luatex I guess (in luatex the assignments in the loop don't trigger a boundary so you get no kerns in either)

@egreg finally a comment of yours that I agree with!

@Johannes_B why me? (I don't think I have the files, and why is it doing \newwrite at all?

@DavidCarlisle I thougt you might be most qualified. :-)

@Johannes_B no:-)

@DavidCarlisle I left a comment.

@ChristianHupfer Just going through the unanswered.

@Johannes_B I do that occasionally too but there's no feedback most times

@ChristianHupfer Jep. And next time iscroll through the list, the hopeless cases (in my POV) get a vote to close.

As usual the sites are painfully slow due to hats. :(

@DavidCarlisle You always agree with me, but you're too proud to admit it. :P

@egreg I agree with you when you are right

@DavidCarlisle Exactly what I said, no?

@egreg not exactly

@DavidCarlisle I see you've managed to force a new v0.87 beta :-)

@JosephWright :-) just recompiled again (for a second time:-) started the test suite a minute or two ago..

@DavidCarlisle :-)

@JosephWright fmtutil [INFO]: Failed to build: 1 (luatex/lualollipop) was there a problem with that or did you just not get to it?

@DavidCarlisle -- well, that's certainly good news. please keep me posted.

@DavidCarlisle Lollipop .ini files are part of Lollipop and are GPL: I'm leaving them

@DavidCarlisle Fix required is the same as for plain (use luatexconfig not pdftexconfig and update Unicode stuff)

@JosephWright oh OK fair enough

@DavidCarlisle Akira seems to have recompiled: grabbing the new version now

@JosephWright down to 15 diffs

@PauloCereda Luckily WTFPL is not a crayon license ;)

@DavidCarlisle Hmm, I have 127

@JosephWright I win!

@percusse Indeed. :) Also: exttld.com/index.php?content=terms

@DavidCarlisle Have you got any local changes?

@PauloCereda

@percusse LOLOLOLOL

@JosephWright just checking, I think I backed them all out... also the formats built by build check just use the local files (so not your ini fles don't they?)

ouch sorry I got in between cricket talk apparently.

cls

clr

clear

clrscr

none of them worked

@JosephWright only diffs I have in latex2e-public/truck are

$ svn diff build-config.lua
Index: build-config.lua
===================================================================
--- build-config.lua    (revision 953)
+++ build-config.lua    (working copy)
@@ -9,7 +9,8 @@
 -- This relies on a format being built by the 'base' dependency
 asciiengines   = {"etex", "pdftex"}
 checkformat    = "latex"
-checkengines   = {"xetex","etex"}
+asciiengines   = {"pdftex","eptex"}
+checkengines   = {"xetex", "luatex","etex"}
 checkruns      = 2
 checksuppfiles = {"color.cfg", "graphics.cfg", "test209.tex", "test2e.tex", "xetex.def"}

and

@percusse: apparently they are having fun with checking diffs....

$ svn diff support/hyphen.cfg
Index: support/hyphen.cfg
===================================================================
--- support/hyphen.cfg  (revision 953)
+++ support/hyphen.cfg  (working copy)
@@ -1,3 +1,18 @@
+\iffalse
+\ifx\directlua\undefined\else
+\ifnum\luatexversion=87
+\begingroup
+  \catcode`\{=1 %
+  \catcode`\}=2 %
+  \catcode`\#=6 %
+ \directlua{
+    tex.enableprimitives("", {"savinghyphcodes"})
+  }
+\global\savinghyphcodes=1
+\endgroup
+\fi
+\fi
+\fi
 \InputIfFileExists{UShyphen.tex}%

@DavidCarlisle Ah, that one would make a difference

@JosephWright which is \iffalse (but otherwise re-enabled the hyphenation)

@PauloCereda and using SVN too...

at least the cat got away

If this program accidentally screws up and destroys data on your PC, electrocutes you, makes your monitor explode in your face, set's your house on fire, kills you, changes all the text you say in online games to oink, causes everyone on the planet(and beyond) to try to kill you, hacks into a nearby nuclear missile and targets your house, changes your bank balance to $0, gets you banned from online games, adds your name to a hitman's list, sucks you into the computer and plays pong with you(with you as ball), causes secret agencies to come after you, makes you believe you got maggots crawli…

@percusse: ^^

@JosephWright no it's iffalse it set savinghyphcodes to enable hyphenation as Hans suggested but I disabled it this time

@DavidCarlisle Let me check if I've got the up-to-date l3build: I think I need to update it on CTAN/TL

@PauloCereda TL;DR

@percusse Shit's gonna happen, ain't my fault.

@PauloCereda See ? Way better :)

@PauloCereda Somebody got me into this agar.io I don't recommend

@percusse Oh no

@percusse: ^^ seems legit

@JosephWright does this work for you? (does for me now)

\hsize 10pt
\hfuzz20pt
\show\lefthyphenmin
\showthe\lefthyphenmin
\show\hyphenationmin
\showthe\hyphenationmin
\message{AA\the\hyphenationmin}
a supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
\bye

@DavidCarlisle Yes, looks OK here (w32tex)

@JosephWright hmm I suppose we should compare logs if you are getting that many diffs. i get:

$ ls build/test/*diff
build/test/tlb0077.luatex.diff           build/test/vlatex04.luatex.diff
build/test/tlb0372.luatex.diff           build/test/vlatex05.luatex.diff
build/test/tlb0380.luatex.diff           build/test/vlatex06.luatex.diff
build/test/tlb0406.luatex.diff           build/test/vlatex06-2015.luatex.diff
build/test/tlb0942.luatex.diff           build/test/vtl2e04.luatex.diff
build/test/tlb-syntonly-001.luatex.diff  build/test/vtl2e05.luatex.diff
build/test/tltc001.luatex.diff           build/test/vtl2e06.luatex.diff

@DavidCarlisle Looks similar now I've updated l3build:

@DavidCarlisle Should I take another look at more normalisation?

@DavidCarlisle I think for TL'16 we should enable LuaTeX testing as-standard (as no-one else is actually testing this ...)

@JosephWright oh so you have 15 too, good

@DavidCarlisle Like I say, I'd forgotten that I added more normalisation to l3build and haven't yet sent to CTAN: I'll do that in a bit

@JosephWright yes also if we get the default setup down to 0 diffs for luatex I think we should seriously push Hans to run it as part of the luatex build. he doesn't need to know any latex, just be able to run texlua, which shouldn't be too hard in that context....

@DavidCarlisle That would be ideal, certainly: I could cook up a Travis-CI set up for this, I suppose

@JosephWright perhaps or we call itnear enough and just check them in (although there are a few there with differing box output that I want top check)

@DavidCarlisle I think we both should look at them again and see what's either odd or fixable, then check in the remainder

I see @Werner is still winning on hats

@JosephWright yes certainly the majority are different line wrapping and the new output from \show from \mathchardef.

@DavidCarlisle I'm checking in for most of these: they can't be normalised (I don't think there's more I can do on the line ends)

@JosephWright OK makes sense, got called away to something else so not checked the box diffs yet. Seen anything to worry about?

@DavidCarlisle Not really

@DavidCarlisle Nephew currently using laptop, may need a little while!

@JosephWright buy him one for Christmas, it'll be cost effective in the end:-)

@DavidCarlisle Parents not keen on that

@DavidCarlisle Plus he's only three

@JosephWright Perhaps he can finish xor ;-)

@JosephWright ah three is a bit young probably:-) I think we got one start of year 3 (so age 8 more or less)

@ChristianHupfer Bob is funny.

@Johannes_B Bob?

@ChristianHupfer Yep

@Johannes_B Ah -- he deleted the question. \begin\documentclass[main.tex]{subfiles} ;-)

@ChristianHupfer I like Shakira :-)

@Johannes_B I will send you a christmas present: A Shakira poster made with TikZ :-P

@ChristianHupfer Oh no. Though she is pretty, i like the music.

@ChristianHupfer April 2004. Wow.

@Johannes_B That's a dinosaur nowadays ... TeX will run, but very slow, I assume

@ChristianHupfer Running slow on my system. :-(

@Johannes_B Are you running on ENIAC? ;-)

@ChristianHupfer I am running a buggy Ubuntu.

@Johannes_B I've heard that Windows slows down the machine (so they say ;-)), but Linux?

@DavidCarlisle :-)

@ChristianHupfer I did some strange things now and don't have a suitable storage device to make a full backup.

@JosephWright tex.stackexchange.com/questions/191132/… Or @Christian writes an answer. Or provides a suitable dupe.

@Johannes_B What should I write there? Repeating my comment as an answer?

@Johannes_B: Answered

@ChristianHupfer Top and +1.

@Johannes_B Thanks

@Johannes_B: Regarding the MikTeX question: I wonder why MikTeX is so restrictive on the prerequisits? Due to Installer issues?

@ChristianHupfer there were quite big changes in sp2

@ChristianHupfer Its quite a common minimum requirement

On the back up device so might try voting using the app :-)

@JosephWright oh you got your laptop back:-)

@DavidCarlisle Yes

@JosephWright I commited two but one was identical to yours svn moaned a bit but seems to have sorted it out

@DavidCarlisle But you did miss svn ps svn:eol-style native ;-)

@JosephWright haven't we set that as the default for test files by now?

@DavidCarlisle Well no as it did make a change when I set it ...

@JosephWright but you set for each file individually?

@DavidCarlisle Yes, I always do

@JosephWright it would be so much simpler with git:-)

@DavidCarlisle Yes

@JosephWright actually what does git do? (with svn I always turn off the native eol stuff and just use unix endings everywhere, which is default for cygwin anyway, but if I have to use a windows svn)

@DavidCarlisle Git stores a list of files that don't follow the 'standard' line end scheme in a single file, so you have to 'opt in' to files being non-standard and you see it (I've picked up a few that way from from the Git <-> SVN for L3)

@JosephWright Well, I use Windows only for game playing :-)

@ChristianHupfer Fair enough

@JosephWright well svn would be similar if we specified at the top of the repository that tlg files default to native line ends

@JosephWright I've not started the other machine for three months now -- no Windows XP or Windows 7/8/9/10/11/12 etc.

@DavidCarlisle github.com/latex3/latex3/blob/master/.gitattributes

@DavidCarlisle I've no idea how it's done for SVN

@ChristianHupfer I always have Win(7) running on my Mac 'on top' of Mac OS X: a required system for work

@ChristianHupfer I also need Windows for cross-platform TeX testing, of course

@JosephWright poor Joseph :-P

@JosephWright although testing is an optional feature for tex work

@ChristianHupfer No, I'm quite happy

@DavidCarlisle :-)

@DavidCarlisle Other people might not understand that ;-)

@DavidCarlisle Perhaps we should point to a recent talk at UK-TUG ...

@JosephWright If you say so...I have to believe you ;-)

@ChristianHupfer At work there really is no option, so I have to be good with Windows

@JosephWright Well, preparing lectures (well lessons for students) is done here on my Linux Machine and at school I have my own notebook, which is set up with Linux/Windows 7 dual boot, but I rarely use Windows 7 even in school. I can decide which system I use for doing presentations etc.

@ChristianHupfer No PCs in teaching rooms?

@ChristianHupfer I have instruments to run, and they have Windows (almost) exclusively

@JosephWright No :-( My previous school was really fantastic concerning equipment: PC, amplifiers, DVD/BlueRay players, LCD projectors, everything setup and ready to use, but in my current school I have to roll a carriage with the projector, open it, correct the projector position/angle etc (because others have misused it before) and I loose 5 minutes at the beginning for setup and 5 minutes in the end, to shutdown and lock everything :-( This really sucks (sorry!)

@JosephWright LabView stuff?

@ChristianHupfer Not for us: all pre-built stuff. Some of my laser colleagues and when we go to 'big' facilities its (probably) labview, but I don't do any of that myself

@JosephWright I forgot: You're an experimental Chemist?

@ChristianHupfer Yes

@JosephWright Strange thing is that (many, not most) experimental Physicsts work with Unix based software or have written own interfaces... I was quite fine with my Linux simulation code -- I did not need other hardware

@ChristianHupfer Big (physics) facility I go to is all-Windows :-)

@JosephWright Boooooo! They are not doing Physics then /sob

@ChristianHupfer Don't think you can get Origin for Linux :-)

Windows makes Widows ...

@JosephWright Oh my, Origin ... I had to use it in Lab Courses, in 1998 or so... Is that stuff still around? :D

@ChristianHupfer Yup: Origin is in favour with my colleagues doing laser and muon experiments, though there is some open source analysis software for the latter (mantidproject.org/Main_Page, mainly for neutron work)

@JosephWright In Astrophysics IDL was/is very popular, which is available on Windows/Solaris/Linux at that time, but I did not like it. I wrote own C based software and made the visualization with GnuPlot

@ChristianHupfer A quick search suggests it is still about

@ChristianHupfer I don't like Origin for presentation, though it does a better job of some processing than I can pull of in Excel or SciDAVis

@JosephWright Most likely. I remember that my former Institute had to pay 20000 Euros every year for the IDL licenses

Going offline. Have a nice time

@JosephWright 7 left:-)

@DavidCarlisle Yup, looking at them again

so if the discretionary replacing 2 diff is OK, it looks in good shape (@JosephWright)

@DavidCarlisle Agree on those ones

@DavidCarlisle The discretionary stuff is entirely different in LuaTeX so I'm pretty sure it's OK

@JosephWright I was going to say same but wondered if I ought to check what it's actually doing but OK, let's call it done. You checking in?

@DavidCarlisle I'll check in the ones that I'm clear on :-)

@JosephWright OK ping me and I'll update and re-run just to test then look at what's left

@DavidCarlisle Give me a few mins

@ChristianHupfer I don't use MiKTeX, no idea.

@Johannes_B As I've said, it's not really restrictive (it is to do with installers: most don't support WinXP-pre-SP2 nowadays, and as XP itself is out-of-support ...)

@JosephWright I read it. But a machine from 2004 is really old :-)

Christmas sweets are waiting ... and they'll have to wait until tomorrow :D

@egreg due to what? :)

@yo' The hat thing is slowing the rendering of pages. At least this is what I see.

@egreg Turn off hats

@JosephWright IIRC it was the same last year, when I turned them off on Math.SE.

@egreg it seems fine to me.

@yo' Let me check with Firefox

@yo' It's slower with Safari. :(

MathJax on Math.SE takes forever.

@egreg Really, I don't see that

@JosephWright With Safari?

@egreg Firefox, of course

@JosephWright one left? build/test/vtl2e06.luatex.diff

@DavidCarlisle Yes, will check again

@JosephWright just ran it in tools: lots more of same....

@DavidCarlisle I'm sure