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12:01 AM
@PeterGrill I don't think silence can do anything for xparse and LaTeX3 packages in general: they use a completely different method for warnings from LaTeX2e.
 
@egreg Ok, your solution works fine. But does that also suppress other warnings... Not sure there are any that I am concerned about.
Also, don't see log-declarations=false documented in the xparse.pdf.
 
@PeterGrill Messages in LaTeX3 have a "class"; the option redirects only messages in the xparse class.
 
@egreg Hmmm.. It is documented in the latest version...
 
12:23 AM
@PeterGrill cunning trick that, getting someone to put a bounty on a question for which you have the only current answer.
 
@DavidCarlisle Can't believe how much rep I got for that since the bounty went for it.. I will have to remember that once I get closer again. :-)
 
@PeterGrill well I could do with 200 to catch up Jake and Joseph, so I was wondering if I should do another marginpar something and steal your points. Trouble is it's not obvious how to do something better:(
 
Hi
 
@hpesoj626 hi
 
@DavidCarlisle Well I don't think I am going to get the bounty for that unless the OP specifically does that. I think that since my answer was before the bounty it won't be given the bounty by default.
 
12:29 AM
@PeterGrill I don't think I'll ever understand this site:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle Another one of those things I learned the hard way when I tried to award a bounty and I think it disappeared, or perhaps it was one I thought I would get the bounty -- can;t recall...
 
@PeterGrill I see that your rep is getting close to @DavidCarlisle's again. You don't give up easily, do you?
 
@hpesoj626 see the top starred comment, @PeterGrill has help in high places....
 
@DavidCarlisle Too early for @egreg to worry about you to replace him as president of the 100k club :)
@PeterGrill rep cap with just one answer. What happens to the rest? Do they get added on the next day?
 
@hpesoj626 no, votes given after rep cap are lost as far as rep is concerned, but still count towards tag badges
 
1:39 AM
hmm, about time to install TeX Live on my Gentoo inst :P
 
 
1 hour later…
2:54 AM
@hpesoj626 What you mean, David is 1500 points ahead, too far to catch up...
@DavidCarlisle So, now we know who was downvoting you earlier? :-)
 
 
4 hours later…
GTK
7:16 AM
is there any way to combine \usepackage{fontspec} and \setsansfont{some OTF font} with the mathdesign package?
 
kan
7:36 AM
Where is a list of switches that one can pass to amsart? :)
 
7:53 AM
@kan The only non standard one is makeidx
 
kan
8:12 AM
@egreg So, the standard ones are onesided, a4paper, letter and so on... but can one find an exhaustive list somewhere?
 
8:35 AM
@percusse (Coming late to this discussion, I know) This is where it's very important that the comment be written carefully. I think the "possible duplicate" text on the "Text Building Blocks" is good as it signals both to the OP and to the rest of the community that there is a window of opportunity for the OP to see if they can make the duplicate work for them.
I'll often leave that comment without voting to close as a duplicate when I suspect that it is but want to be sure that the OP can use the suggestion before actually closing.
 
@AndrewStacey Sounds good
7
Q: What makes a good community advert?

Joseph WrightThe Community Promotion Ads - 2013 question has recently appeared on meta. In a comment there, tohecz points out that the stats for the 2012 ads show that older ads get far fewer clicks than newer ones. This raises the question of how many ads to reuse, and more generally what makes a good ad. Th...

@barbarabeeton has done a good job of critically evaluating the ads: thoughts most welcome
 
@kan grep DeclareOption $(kpsewhich amsart.cls)
 
kan
@egreg Wow! Magic!
 
9:04 AM
arara got more stargazers on the project page (23 so far). I think I should start working again on the documentation. :)
Why is so difficult to write a lovely consistent coeherent descriptive intuitive short yet precise but detailed manual? :P
2
 
@GTK is xetex an option? It seems to work.
 
@GTK Not really.
 
@egreg Yeah. You're right. :)
 
9:26 AM
@GTK I've added a workaround; but I don't think it's a very good idea. No guarantee it won't break somewhere.
 
GTK
@egreg, thanks, that workaround teaches me something as well!
 
@GTK However, getting an OpenType or TrueType Charter font seems a better idea.
 
GTK
@egreg. Yes. Herbert pointed me to the TTF, but the bold uses a different naming that I'll have to figure out how to incorporate.
i'm deeply ignorant about fontspec, as you can tell
 
@egreg The otf font seems to be smaller than the one in mathdesign. now something is wrong with my luatex. It breaks.
 
@GTK @hpesoj626 Sorry, lecture time; I'll be back in late afternoon.
 
9:35 AM
@egreg Have a nice lecture! :)
 
 
2 hours later…
11:46 AM
@GTK I added a version with the fonts Herbert pointed at.
Now I'll go to the other side of the town for another lecture. :(
 
@egreg Have a nice lecture²! :)
 
GTK
what @PauloCereda wrote :-)
 
12:01 PM
@lockstep ... which I totally second. I just got my first bronze tag badge as badge no. 60 or so. If the badge colors mean anything, this goes to show the tag badges are too difficult to attain (as I mainly answer questions).
 
12:14 PM
@PauloCereda If you ever find a universal recepie for this, please sell it to me.
 
@StephanLehmke Sure! :)
 
12:43 PM
Hello!
Btw: recognize this font used in Parisien metro:
 
@tohecz no... no... NOOOOOO!
 
@PauloCereda Yes :( Gladly it's only a temporary sign
Usually they of course use the special Parisian font
@PauloCereda I'm at school with no sound device, sorry :(
 
1:21 PM
Even as a temporary sign, it's unacceptable…
 
@ℝaphink tell it the RATP
 
1:37 PM
I'm having a break, so I can chime in. Not only the font is unacceptable, but the station celebrates a dreadful event for us: a consequence of the Campoformio treaty was that Veneto (until then Republic of Venice) passed under Austrian domination. :(
 
@egreg Yes, and it's just next to Place d'Italie...
 
2:05 PM
Hi all Is there anything wrong with the main site? I was trying to put my answer to one question and before I could completely upload the site says we are offline!
@egreg The site hanged before I could put that option too. Trying again! And same thing even for comments an error occured Errrrrr.
 
@HarishKumar I guess that we have to suffer a bit. :) Really, don't even mention the array alternative: use only a tabular and live happier.
 
@egreg Just wanted to show how ugly working codes can be. But before putting a tabular option the site through me out :-(
And if you feel that array option may not be good to be there, I will replace it with tabular as soon as the site allows.
 
2:33 PM
@HarishKumar Routine maintenance usually takes less than an hour it says....
@HarishKumar it's back:-)
 
@ℝaphink OMG
 
@PauloCereda: isn't that your dream come true?
 
@ℝaphink It's too big. :)
 
this one is priceless
 
@Paulo do you mind people eating duck?
 
2:39 PM
@tohecz Nope.
 
@DavidCarlisle Thanks. I am in :-)
 
@tohecz I wouldn't eat that one
 
@PauloCereda that's good, because in our cafeteria, we got a very nicely done duck on orange sauce and it was very enjoyable.
 
@tohecz ooh duck power. :)
 
@DavidCarlisle who would eat rubber? Only streetwalkers do that.
 
2:42 PM
@tohecz WAIT A MINUTE, YOU MEAN THAT DUCK ISN'T REAL?!?!?!!
slow motion nooooooooooooooooooo
 
@PauloCereda you know? Every scout has his sharp knife to test these sort of things ;)
 
if the duck says "aaaaaaaarrrggggggggh", then it's not a rubber duck
if it says "pffffffffffffffffffffff", then it is one
 
@ℝaphink if it says nothing, the knife was an axe
 
@tohecz Just kick the duck. :)
 
 
1 hour later…
4:02 PM
@tohecz you mean because they don't work? (I posted an update)
 
@DavidCarlisle what? axes don't work?
 
4:17 PM
@tohecz not the duck, saving my answers (your comment on float saving:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle Ha! You could have used my \leaders trick here ;-)
What if there is more than one write whatsit in the box?
 
@StephanLehmke ah leaders the whole box, ooooh yes (multiple writes whatsits is OK in fact in the example there were two one from the label and one from the caption but leaders would be better
 
@DavidCarlisle Yes just realised this, you're writing the \@nnil yourself ;-)
 
@AndrewStacey I'm trying to keep consistent too but though we have a coherent etiquette it's not always easy to not to forget about them. And sometimes you just don't think what you are commenting on. So I agree but I also fail occasionally. Having said that some users are not willing to cooperate and have this strange attitude of fake coolness and I'm trying hard to understand the root of the problem for such behavior.
Looking for help with attitude doesn't compute for me
 
@StephanLehmke thanks, updated answer you get an honourable mention:-)
 
4:40 PM
@DavidCarlisle :-)
 
4:55 PM
@percusse What I meant was that if those of us who are aware of the problem are careful to leave a comment then those who aren't aware of this sites peculiarities might (eventually) get the idea. We need to be aggressively nice - it isn't enough to be passively agreeable.
3
 
5:07 PM
ooh my CVS sense is tingling. Somebody commited code right now!!!!
And it was @Andrew. :)
 
Hmm.. My first question was a failure :-)
Should I delete it?
0
Q: How to decorate a directed edge with a mark?

JLDiazTrying to find a better way to put the black dot in the figure of the question Separating edges starting from same node I tried adding the dot as a marking decoration in the path. However, marking decorations destroy the path, so the manual recommends to use postaction={decorate} to ensure that ...

 
@PauloCereda tikzmark rides again
 
@AndrewStacey ooh! :)
 
@JLDiaz Up to you: does sound 'too localized'
 
@percusse @AndrewStacey I'm not quite sure if this fits into your current conversation, but for example for this question here (tex.stackexchange.com/q/86529/11984) I fail to understand why the OP is aggressive towards me and/or if I should mention something about it in the comments
 
5:16 PM
@JLDiaz Reading the manual about postactions again, it makes sense. When the path has been completely constructed and is about to be used, a scope is created. Inside this scope, the path is used but not with the original path options. I don't even understand it well but but it works. And the markings examples in the manual all use postaction.
 
@hpesoj626 Yes, but as I stated in my last code, I thought that I had tried postaction and get an error. Perhaps that was before duplicating the edge.
 
@JLDiaz I'm sorry I couldn't upvote your first question. I was out of vote for the day.
 
Well, I cannot reproduce my original problem, but since, after all, everything is now working as described in the manual, the question has no sense. I'll delete it
@hpesoj626 Never mind, I got my rep cap anyway :-)
 
Bye guys. I need to sleep now. It's 1:22 a.m. here.
 
@gigili: Are you here?
 
5:30 PM
@percusse: you haz mail. :)
John Collins posted his first question!
 
6:04 PM
@StephanLehmke TeX ignores \write, \openout, and \closeout whatsits that appear within boxes governed by leaders. If you are upset about this, you shouldn't be. (D. E. Knuth, The TeXbook, 1983)
 
@egreg No I was delighted. It was one of the nicer obfuscations behind TeXPower (if I only could have found an equally elegant solution to avoid unbalancing the colour stack ;-)
 
6:23 PM
@Jörg Looks to me like a "Take a deep breath and step away from the computer" situation. I think the questioner was getting extremely frustrated by the situation they'd gotten into and was taking it out (probably unconciously) on you. This is where you need to be aggressively nice!
 
@AndrewStacey I'm trying, but from the beginning the OP was a tad aggressive. Did he delete the "stupid" comment or was that a Mod?
 
@Jörg Fight agressiveness with kindness. :)
 
@PauloCereda Make Ducks, not War?
 
@Jörg You could breed a bunch, then make a duck army. :)
 
6:39 PM
@PauloCereda or just fish one oversized duck from the Thames, and drop it on the protagonist.
 
@DavidCarlisle ooh that would be sweet too. :)
Speaking of the Thames, when will the queen go in the royal boat again? It was her birthday or something.
 
@PauloCereda Diamond Jubilee
 
@PauloCereda given that last time they went on the thames, the d of e spent a week in hospital recovering, I suspect they are not in any hurry (was the jubilee 60 years on the throne)
 
@DavidCarlisle Ah, the Duck of Edinburgh :-)
5
 
@JosephWright ooh true! :)
@JosephWright Hence the giant duck? :P
 
6:43 PM
@JosephWright LOL
 
Duke of Edinburgh = Edmund Blackadder?
 
@PauloCereda I don't think that the queen married a giant duck, we should check wikipedia
 
@DavidCarlisle oopsie.
 
@Jörg That was me
 
Or Archbishop of Canterbury.
 
6:44 PM
@DavidCarlisle Give it two minutes, it will be there as a 'fact' ;-)
 
@JosephWright Mh? I was amused by the Duck of Edinburgh
 
@PauloCereda Ah, well that is Edmund Blackadder
 
@JosephWright No Brazilian I ever met knows about Blackadder. :(
 
@PauloCereda Their lose
 
6:58 PM
@PauloCereda That was perfect. :)
I'll dig into skype stuff for more terrible stuff and use it while talking to my supervisor.
 
@percusse LOL
 
Is there a glyph which is invisible and has no (positive) size? Like zero-width space in unicode?
 
@StephanLehmke well if you have a unicode tex you could use that. otherwise any character from nullfont...
 
I'd like to avoid something dishonorable like \textcolor{white}...
 
7:04 PM
@StephanLehmke my macros are never dishonourable, surely?
 
@StephanLehmke Burn the infidel! :)
 
@DavidCarlisle Only when abused...
 
@StephanLehmke there should be laws against macro abuse
3
 
@JosephWright: New suggestion for a UK TeX group. :P
 
@StephanLehmke why a glyph rather than a 0 skip?
 
7:09 PM
@DavidCarlisle To redefine it with accsup.
 
@StephanLehmke never used just had a quick look at the doc so does it work to use a non-character, say any 8bit value from an OT1 font?
 
@DavidCarlisle Well switching to \nullfont doesn't seem to produce any glyphs in the PDF... (or I'm doing something wrong). Should {\nullfont abc} paste to abc?
 
@StephanLehmke No I suspect TeX just moans and does nothing... I give up then:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle Not sure myself, I think the result should be recognizable as text (i.e. if I copy-paste I get some characters).
$$\llap{\textcolor{white}{\BeginAccSupp{method=hex,unicode,ActualText=00240024}
a\EndAccSupp{}}}f:\mathbb{R}\BeginAccSupp{method=hex,unicode,ActualText=005C00720069006700680074006100720072006F0077}\rightarrow\EndAccSupp{}\mathbb{R}\rlap{\textcolor{white}{\BeginAccSupp{method=hex,unicode,ActualText=00240024}a\EndAccSupp{}}}$$
 
7:37 PM
Somehow I get the feeling something cool is lurking behind this...
$$\llap{\textcolor{white}{\BeginAccSupp{method=escape,ActualText=$$}
|\EndAccSupp{}}}f:\BeginAccSupp{method=escape,ActualText=\string\mathbb{R}}\mathbb{R}\EndAccSupp{}\BeginAccSupp{method=escape,ActualText=\rightarrow}\rightarrow\EndAccSupp{}\BeginAccSupp{method=escape,ActualText=\string\mathbb{R}}\mathbb{R}\EndAccSupp{}\rlap{\textcolor{white}{\BeginAccSupp{method=escape,ActualText=$$}|\EndAccSupp{}}}$$
 
7:48 PM
I wish I could easily compile the latest TeX Live 2012 myself
 
If all else fails, read the documentation ;-)
5
$$\BeginAccSupp{method=escape,space=true,ActualText=$$}\,\EndAccSupp{}f:\BeginAccSupp{method=escape,ActualText=\string\mathbb{R}}\mathbb{R}\EndAccSupp{}\BeginAccSupp{method=escape,ActualText=\rightarrow}\rightarrow\EndAccSupp{}\BeginAccSupp{method=escape,ActualText=\string\mathbb{R}}\mathbb{R}\EndAccSupp{}\BeginAccSupp{method=escape,space=true,ActualText=$$}\,\EndAccSupp{}$$
 
oh man
I think my tl-install picked the slowest possible server
 
@StephanLehmke Ah, reverse logic again. You wrote "All else fails => Read the documentation" but you meant to say "Read the documentation => All else fails"
 
Now this is very cool (please don't close!):
0
A: Copying LaTeX from a PDF

Stephan LehmkeTry this: \documentclass{article} \usepackage{amssymb} \input{glyphtounicode} \pdfgentounicode=1 \usepackage{accsupp} \newcommand\pasteablelatex[1] {% \edef\next {% \noexpand\BeginAccSupp{method=escape,ActualText=\detokenize{#1}}% }% \next#1\EndAccSupp{}% } \begin{document} foo ...

@AndrewStacey :-)
 
@StephanLehmke Definitely cool, but I strongly suspect that you're answering a question that hasn't been asked.
 
7:59 PM
@StephanLehmke OMG it works.
@StephanLehmke: would you like to write a blog post about it?
 
@AndrewStacey Don't confuse that question with the linked one. The other question asked "How can I get a LaTeX document from a PDF", but I understand the one I answered as "how can I make PDF paste back as LaTeX", which is a different matter.
 
@StephanLehmke I think that the asked question is ambiguous, yes there is an example generated from LaTeX but I suspect that it is simply an example. And the fact that it is ambiguous makes me suspect that the questioner is asking the other question: given any PDF, can I get LaTeX code to generate it.
 
@AndrewStacey Well we'll need to wait for the OP to decide this matter then ;-)
 
@StephanLehmke Yes. And if you're wrong, I recommend that you ask-and-answer your own question to add this answer. I think that folks searching for what you've done would find it easier to know what you've done with a more specific question.
(And, in case it's not clear, I'm pretty impressed by what you've done.)
 
man is there a way to easily pick your mirror with the tl-install script
?
 
8:08 PM
@Gnintendo Probably you need the advanced one
 
@Gnintendo There's a -repository flag. The default is the CTAN mirror.
The default network package repository is a CTAN mirror chosen automatically via mirror.ctan.org.

If you want to override that, the location value can be a url starting with ftp:, http:, or file:/, or a plain directory path. (When giving an http: or ftp: location, trailing ‘/’ characters and/or a trailing ‘/tlpkg’ component are ignored.)

For example, you could choose a particular CTAN mirror with something like: ctan.example.org/tex-archive/systems/texlive/tlnet, substituting a real hostname and its particular top-level CTAN path for ctan.example.org/tex-archive. The list o
 
mm, cool, is there a list of repos somewhere in the format that the flag accepts?
mmk, cool
@PauloCereda Thanks <3
 
@Gnintendo My pleasure. <3
 
@PauloCereda It was going so slow you'd think I'd picked a throttled server on mars
 
@Gnintendo The mirroring algorithm is based on geolocation, not necessarily server load.
 
8:16 PM
Hmmm, didn't we have a discussion lately about closing questions too fast? What side was I on again??
We should only give 10k rep to people we trust.
 
@StephanLehmke I won't cast my vote this time, so I can vote to reopen. :P
 
@StephanLehmke The side you were on is probably like the part of the Victoria's Secret catalog where they sell the pants - it doesn't really matter.
 
@Gnintendo Adriana Lima WHERE?!
<3
 
:P
lesigh
I eat, sleep, work, and piss in the same 10 square foot area
O.O
 
8:39 PM
@StephanLehmke In the T1 encoding there is \textcompwordmark
 
@egreg Cool, thank you.
 
I want to ask Ulrike what's her favourite chess grandmaster. :)
 
@egreg It works. It only turns out that a character without substance is a bit hard to "hit" when copying ;-)
 
@StephanLehmke Really? :)
 
@egreg At least I can hide easter eggs in PDF now which only show up on copy/paste ;-)
4
 
8:50 PM
@StephanLehmke LOL
 
G'evening! My friend took a one-day break to be here again to downvote me :)
 
@tohecz Very annoying
 
@tohecz Noted
@tohecz Have there been any 'words' between you and anyone else recently, on the site?
 
@tohecz Oh. :(
 
@egreg well, I notice it basically only because my $\rep \bmod 10$ changes...
@JosephWright If you consider this a "words":
0
A: How to reset footnote counter in each column of a two-column document?

Vafafootnote counter needs to be reset at the beginning of \@makecol macro: \documentclass[twocolumn]{article} \usepackage{lipsum} \makeatletter \let\@ORG@makecol\@makecol \gdef\@makecol{\setcounter{footnote}{0}\@ORG@makecol} \makeatother \begin{document} This is a test\footnote{Test} This is a tes...

 
8:57 PM
@tohecz Usually, after noon I check for changes modulo 15. :P
 
@egreg yeah, but that's true. Do you know how much rep would you have without the rep cap? around 250k?
@Joseph The point is that I 99.9% surely know who it is:
 
@tohecz Never tried thinking to it. Maybe it's possible to know the total upvotes with some magic query to the database. But Jon Skeet would be at 10M or so.
 
all time	 	by type	 	month	 	week	 	day
7	up		3	question		13		7		1
9	down		13	answer
@egreg I think he must be a millionnaire with some steady source of money, because he obviously spends like 25 hours a day on SO.
 
@egreg Your numbers are way more expressive than Jon's, considering that SO has a bigger traffic and "broader" questions and answers than us.
 
@tohecz You can have people take offence even if they were not originally involved in something, hence asking more generally
 
9:02 PM
@JosephWright but notice the table of votes I just posted.
 
@tohecz I'll summon my duck army.
 
@PauloCereda I saw the giant duck in the TV News this evening. It was really floating on the Thames!
 
@egreg Oh my! o.O
 
@tohecz I'm not questioning the likely downvoter, but rather saying that some people will do this 'on behalf of a wronged third party', even if said third party would not like it!
 
@JosephWright ok, well I generally don't care about rep, I just say it's a bit annoying, and I'm glad that @Paulo and @egreg are happily having fun of it :D
 
9:05 PM
@tohecz Am I wrong or some downvotes on you have been removed?
 
@tohecz Any serial voting is an issue as it misses the point of the voting mechanism. Downvoting is also not so nice to people.
 
@egreg no, I still see all 6 of them.
 
@egreg No, none removed
 
where do I do rep recalc?
 
@tohecz That got removed
 
9:07 PM
@tohecz It's not necessary any more.
 
@JosephWright oh ok. so they improved their SQL queries with the proper TRACERS ;)
 
@tohecz:
I already summoned my duck.
 
Talking about serial voting, it seems that somebody got enthusiastic: I got 25 upvotes in three minutes half an hour ago.
 
@egreg that might get reverted ... :-/ 25 is already quite lot
 
@tohecz No problem: rep cap hit several hours ago. :)
 
9:11 PM
@egreg Yay! :)
 
@PauloCereda OMG .. I mean, OMD!!!
 
@tohecz Get the knife. :)
 
@PauloCereda lol
 
And they were all zero voted answers
 
@egreg that seems like someone thinking no your answers should have 0
 
9:27 PM
@tohecz :)
 
@egreg if I buy the TUG membership now, does it mean I have it exactly for the year 2013?
 
@tohecz Yes, calender-year based
 
@JosephWright ok, thanks!
 
@tohecz Usually the call for renewal is end of January, IIRC
 
@egreg so should I wait a while or do it now?
 
9:31 PM
@tohecz Ask them
 
@tohecz I suspect if you join now you'll get all of 2013, but as @egreg says asking is best
 
@JosephWright or do it later, now I'm not in the mood to decide how much I'll donate to the LaTeX3 team :D
anyways, the website is still "2012", so I'll wait
 
@tohecz Indeed, price updates can be a little slow
 
@AndrewStacey I don't know how to reply other than star it which already feels lame but I completely agree.
 
@tohecz As you are in France does joint membership make sense (with Gutenberg)?
 
9:38 PM
@JosephWright maybe with CSTUG
I'm in France, but far from feeling so French... ;)
 
@tohecz I wondered about the Czech possibility
 
@JosephWright Just the person I was looking for. Short LaTeX3 question if I may.
 
Also, I don't read Czech, so finding joint membership looked more tricky
@mhelvens Fire away
 
and anyways, most my friends here are British, so maybe UK-TUG ... ? :)
 
@tohecz We are cheap :-)
 
9:41 PM
@JosephWright I'm creating a new data-structure (a graph). I'm trying to follow convention here. I see sequences and such have _new functions that return a variable. But variables are (I believe) not really explained in the docs. I know there are specific argument specifiers for variables, but what makes something a variable and how do I make one?
@JosephWright Are variables just 'macros' with a value? I assumed they would be more structured somehow so they interact well with functions.
 
@mhelvens Dump them in to l3keys :)
 
@mhelvens TeX does not really 'do' variables, so it's largely a convention thing. At the TeX level, tl, clist, seq and prop are macros, int, skip, dim and muskip are registers
 
@JosephWright How should I do it if I want to follow LaTeX3 convention?
 
@mhelvens The structured types are all macros
 
@JosephWright Is there anything I need to do to make them 'follow the rules'. (I don't know, how much the need to be expanded, etc.) To make them interact properly with the v argument specifier?
 
9:44 PM
@mhelvens Provide \<thing>_new:N, \<thing>_(g)set_eq:NN, etc. Exactly which functions you set up depends on what makes sense for the variable type
 
@percusse Looking into it. Thanks.
 
@mhelvens The V business is clever
@mhelvens It will expand either a macro or a register correctly, so you don't have to worry [thanks to Morten, who's no longer on the team :-(]
@mhelvens Basically, any 'higher-level' data structure should be built on top of the tl functions, unless you really know what you are doing
 
@JosephWright But 'how (many times) to expand a variable' depends on the implementation, right? Or should I conform to some interface regarding that?
@JosephWright Ah, that's useful information. Just knowing the interfaces is not always enough. Knowing common practice is very useful.
 
@mhelvens The 'value' only makes sense for some types. For example, sequences don't have a value, so should not be used as the argument to V
 
@JosephWright Oooooh. I see. So v is only used for ints and such?
 
9:47 PM
@mhelvens V/v makes sense for: tl, clist (a bit odd!), int, skip, dim, muskip (from the top of my head)
 
@JosephWright That's unfortunate. It's also undocumented, as far as I can tell.
@JosephWright The docs just say 'a variable'. And complex data-structures claim to provide variables.
 
@mhelvens Yes, but conceptually they don't have a value
They have 'lots of values'
 
@JosephWright Well, that's more a philosophical issue, I suppose.
 
(The V expansion will work, but what you get out won't be very useful)
 
@JosephWright Many (all?) programming languages have variables that can hold complex data-structures. Certainly mathematical sequences are sometimes considered values. I suggest you document the intended purpose of v and V a bit more clearly. The current description suggests a much wider scope.
 
9:51 PM
@mhelvens I'm intrigued as to what one would expect for, for example, the value of a property list
@mhelvens Can of course update the docs
 
@JosephWright Or at least use consistent terminology. The 'complex datastructure' modules say they can create 'variables'. v says it can pass variables as arguments. It's not a stretch to come to a mistaken conclusion.
 
@mhelvens Well, at a technical level it can. That could be used by the team, but we don't do it as it's not a great idea to expose the 'internals' of a variable type. I'll look to update the docs.
 
@JosephWright All depends on your definitions, right? But for a mathematician it can be anything. Certainly property-lists can be mathematically represented as functions, which are considered values. Also in functional programming languages.
 
I guess V applies to variables which have a \<thing>_use:N function
 
@JosephWright Aha! That would be a nice explanation.
 
9:54 PM
@mhelvens I guess I see 'value' more as 'the raw data structure in memory which holds the content', so for a prop it's \q_prop ...
@mhelvens Yes, seems easy to do :-)
 
@JosephWright Well, if it's true. :-)
 
@mhelvens I will need to check, but I think it is (we tidied up the use functions as some did not make so much sense)
 
@JosephWright If I wanted to create a 'struct' (C terminology) as the root of my new data-type, what would you use? @percusse seems to be suggesting l3keys, but might l3prop not be more suitable? The former seems to be concerned mostly with the user-interface, whereas the latter seems more 'internal representation'y.
@JosephWright Or, as you suggested earlier, l3tl?
 
@mhelvens Don't know C, but the keys module is really about more interface-level things, and so does not pack everything into one csname. If the prop module works, use that, but if not then the tl module would make sense.
@mhelvens What is a struct, exactly?
 
@JosephWright class, record
 
10:00 PM
@JosephWright Well, just a key-value mapping, basically. But the set of keys is constant.
@tohecz Right.
 
@mhelvens In that case, I don't see the need for a new data type at all
 
@JosephWright yeah, array of fixed length would do
 
@JosephWright Well, the struct is not my new datatype. Just the 'root' that holds the ingredients of my data-type. ;-)
 
@mhelvens Up to you, but there are lots of data types one can imagine, and I don't see we need all of them separately
 
@JosephWright To represent a graph, you have a list of vertices and a list of edges. Both lists should be 'packed' into one graph-variable.
 
10:02 PM
@mhelvens Sounds very much like a prop to me
 
@mhelvens property list is basically what you want
 
@JosephWright Trust me. A graph is a distinct kind of structure with very specific kinds of operations.
 
@mhelvens Of course, it might depend on how efficient you want to make it: there are places where you might optimise for certain behaviour
 
@JosephWright For now I'm focusing on just getting it to work. Premature optimization is the root of all evil, right?
 
anyways, I gotta go, so good night
 
10:03 PM
@tohecz 'gnight!
 
@mhelvens Well yes
@tohecz Me too: night
 
@DavidCarlisle Ok. Thanks!
Anyway, useful comments. Thanks, all! I'm also leaving.
 
10:53 PM
@DavidCarlisle: Wow, and you also did xspace!! I guess I must have missed that when I looked at your list of packages... No wonder I can't keep up with you. :-)
Have a question: Any particular cygwin I should install?? Seems that using ls, grep, and sort in LaTeX is so much faster than using datatool so with this I should be able to be able run on a PC as well.
 
@PeterGrill there's only one "cygwin" isn't there?
 
@DavidCarlisle Ok, I thought you had recommended a specific one for TeX... So will just install it form http://www.cygwin.com/
Is there any TeX setup needed, or does it "just work".
 
@PeterGrill you can get individual unix tools like grep etc for windows but cygwin is just a big massive blob of posix emulation. i use it for everything.
 
@DavidCarlisle Nah, don't think it makes sense to just get specific tools, when I can get them all. Or am I missing something?
 
@PeterGrill well you have a choice, you can just use windows tex or cygwin comes with a cygwin-compiled tl2012, not cygwin binaries are not windows exe files they are specific unix-like applications that only run over th ecygwin layer
 
11:01 PM
@DavidCarlisle Ok, so this is the choice I was referring to. I have TL2012, so which one should I use?
So I also need a new version of TL2012 for use with cygwin?
 
@PeterGrill well the main think you have to juggle if mixing native windows and linux binaries is paths cygwin has it's own virtual filesystem with it's own root so what cygwin apps see as /usr/local/texlive will appear to a windows app as c:\cygwin\usr\local\texlive
@PeterGrill well no, as I say you can use a windows tex and arrange the paths to use cygwin grep etc, or you can install a full cygwin texlive
 
I only need cygwin for TeX on Windows for comparability. So it seems that using the cygwin with the specific precomputed TL2012 would be the least amount of trouble in running on both platforms.
 
@PeterGrill if you just want a set of unix commandline utilities without the full cygwin experience mingw.org mightbe a better choice
 
Hmmm, yet another option to consider... So then I would just use the normal TL2012 that I already have?
 
@PeterGrill yes
 
11:07 PM
But, I feel that cygwin is probably better as I never heard of mingw. Don't know...
Ok, will try out mingw for now...
So, any setting in the TeX distribution that need to be adjusted with mingw?
 
@PeterGrill well I haven't used it as I always have cygwin (and you don't want both) but some projects at work use it as it is much easier to use mingw tools to compile "normal" windows executables, if you build with cygwin you end up with dependencies on the cygwin runtime unless you are very careful
 
Ok, if this all works, I'll add you to my ungraded VIP list: instead of just beers I'll allow you to choose wines to drink if we ever meet. Thanks...
 
@PeterGrill no don't think so, you just add the folder with the mingw executables into your system path and then you have grep etc available on the windows commandline, but as I say this is second hand info, I' a cygwin devotee:-)
 
That way you can join another club that egreg is already a member of. :-)
Ok, understand about your disclaimer..
 
11:30 PM
@PeterGrill Beer club? :)
 
@egreg No, I meant the upgraded wine club.
:-)
 
@PeterGrill Well, I guess that California wine is better than American beer. Once I asked in a Iowa drinking place if they had a good American beer. "Guinness", replied the waiter.
 
@egreg :-) Yeah Guinness is a great american beer. :-) Just like the great american system of measuring distances in miles, and temperature in Fahrenheit...
 
@PeterGrill I have never tasted a beer worse than Bud. Temperatures in Fahrenheit have the merit that it's more difficult to go below 0 (by the way, we're at -1, now). Converting miles in yards and vice versa must be a nightmare for young schoolers.
 
@egreg actually you more or less never convert miles to yards even as school tests, they just get used at different scales, just as you don't often convert metres to light years. Actually (in the UK, probably not the US) the problem is that young (and not so young) children only get taught the metric system at school, but all social conversation (and road signs) are in imperial units
 
11:44 PM
@DavidCarlisle You should have done like in Australia: from a certain date only metric system. Period.
 
@egreg well (apart from road signs) that's basically what they did it's illegal to sell loose fruit and vegetables etc in imperial units, but that doesn't stop people still asking for a pound of carrots:-) petrol has been sold in litres for 30 years or so but car efficiency is still given as miles per gallon
 
@egreg My problem with having a different system for measurements is that it just adds more complexity to the world without any added benefit. I know someone who worked at Lockheed Martin and the exact reason as to why one of the Mars probes just crashed into the ground was that Lockeed in Sunnyvale and JPL in Pasadena were working together and yet one was using imperial units and the other was using metric -- problem was never noticed until they went to figure out what went wrong...
So this person teaches Math and if you get the correct numerical answer and don't put units you get 9/15. And he cites this reason as to why units are important. :-)
 
@PeterGrill I too often mention that case when I teach about measures.
 
@PeterGrill my math(s) teacher would always add "furlongs per fortnight" as the unit if you missed it off (and then mark the question wrong) after a while you learned not to omit the units (well except when we missed them on purpose:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle :-)
@egreg Oh, and there was a similar incident in Canada, shortly after the switch to metric where the amount of fuel added was not enough. So, in mid air they ran out of fuel.. Luckily: 1. This was one of the few large passenger planes that could glide for a short distance, 2. The pilot happened to know of an abandoned air field coming up, so they were able to land safely...
 
11:57 PM
@PeterGrill Someone told me about an American lady who asked her husband, during a trip in Europe, "why don't they use ounces and feet like us?"
 
@egreg :-) Reminds me of: Why do the French have a different word for everything? Instead of "hat" they use "chapeau". Isn't is easier just to use "hat"? :-)
 

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