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12:00 AM
I've parallel parked once or twice, I do do everything I can to avoid it though.
I'm not saying you, but there's a whole class of you
of me, ha
Don't go to New Jersey
Also, I pretty much always back into a parking spot.
I back into our garage, everything.
I even walk backwards! (Not really.)
really? A lot of parking lots I go to have signs saying not to back into parking spaces.
12:01 AM
Never seen such a thing.
Though I have seen Back-up Bettys, but I'm pretty sure that means that you SHOULD back in.
sdrawdkcab epyt neve i
When there are parking meters, they don't want people to back into them.
expensive to replace and all.
Nathan, have fun driving. Jason, have fun answering questions. See you in the other chat room in a little less than 3 hours. I'm going to cook some dinner.
All right, see you
12:17 AM
Nice, didn't expect that.
1:19 AM
Hi, I have a weird Eudora problem that is probably too localized for a real question. Anyone here with any Eudora/Rosetta problem experience?
Technically, considering a certain someone's recent question (cough*@Daniel*cough), that is not nearly too old to be "too localized".
While I don't know for certain, I suspect that most anyone in this room will be too young to answer the question, and I think you'd be better served asking a question on the site.
And in case you're wondering about the recent question I'm talking about:
Q: How to exit Assembler back to Applesoft Basic on Apple ][GS

DanielWhen writing in Applesoft Basic on my Apple ][GS, a crashed program occasionally dumps me not at the Applesoft Basic prompt (]), but at the assembler prompt instead (*). How can I get out of the Assembler and back to Basic (no pun intended)?

I wasn't thinking about the oldness so much as I have three Intel macs all running 10.6.8 and Eudora, yet on one of them, Eudora simply crashes when you try to check mail. I'm a very experienced Mac user, but this one has got be confounded.
Sounds like a perfect candidate for a question. My knowledge of Rosetta is VERY limited, unfortunately.
I know what it is, what it's used for, and I've had to install it once (maybe twice) before, and that's about the extent of my knowledge :).
But the site has some very smart users.
@JasonSalaz Oh wow. :-) Although I must confess to having actually written software for the Apple II even I can't remember that kind of detail.
@JasonSalaz Ok. Thanks I'll ask a question. If the closing gods determine it too localized, so be it.
I don't have enough rep on this site to add a new tag, so I couldn't tag it with Eudora. (Which kind of shows how few questions there are about it here.)
1:38 AM
I'd be glad to edit it in for you.
And I did.
Q: Eudora crashes under Snow Leopard when checking mail

Alan MunnI have a weird Eudora problem that I don't even know quite where to start to solve. I have three Intel Macs, (a MacBook, a Mac Air and a MacBook Pro) all running the latest update of 10.6.8 (including the most recent v.1.1 of the security update.) Eudora 6.2.4 (the last version released) runs fla...

Eudora! That brings back memories.
@Daniel Still the best mail client ever. I'll be sad to switch. I've been using Mail.app concurrently, but it still doesn't really match up. But the writing is unfortunately on the wall with Lion, and I can only hold out so long.
Eudora was actually my mail client on the last Windows machine I used before switching to Mac.
I'm still running Leopard on my G4 eMac. I hadn't thought of running Eudora, though.
What makes Eudora so much better than Mail, @AlanMunn?
(Bad subjective for a Ask Different question, but fine for chat)
1:53 AM
When it says "not the room you are looking for?" in the upper right-hand corner, I think of the storm troopers in mos eisley
@Daniel There are a few things for me at least. It's possible that I'm not used to Mail enough though. The search in Eudora is incredibly fast and seems to be more efficient than Spotlight. The interface is less clunky (I'm not a big fan of the three panel interface of Mail.)
Also one really annoying thing with Mail is that when I search for something, I can't easily go to that message in the larger list, since the list displayed is only the list that reflect the search criteria. (I don't know if this description makes sense.)
So unless I'm missing something, I have to do the following: enter a search term, double click on the message I'm interested in so that it opens itself, then delete the search term from the search box to get back to the whole mailbox list to see the message in its larger context.
Sounds fair. I've gotten used to Mail, with all its drawbacks, so I don't tend to notice them.
@Daniel Yes, we all adapt. I've just resisted as long as possible in this particular case.
2:08 AM
Good for you!
My Windows machine was clunky enough that my associations with Eudora weren't positive due to overall machine crashes (and bad dial-up), so I wasn't eager to replicate it on the Mac.
@Daniel I've never had the pleasure [sic] of using a Windows machine to any great extent. I've always used Macs or some version of Unix.
2:23 AM
I started on an Apple //+, then an Apple ][GS, then a Gateway 386 running Windows 3.1, then a dreadful Toshiba laptop with Win95, then a Dell running Windows ME, which crashed and killed a chapter of my dissertation in the process.
At that point, I bought an eMac to finish my doctoral dissertation, which I still use (I upgraded it from Panther to Leopard), but my primary machine now is a mid 2011 13" MacBook Air
@Daniel I wrote a bunch of software for the Apple II (running CP/M) and IBM PCs running DOS. (I used to write lab automation software in an Engineering research centre. I bought a Mac Plus as a student and have never looked back. I have a succession of old Macs in my basement now. A Mac SE30, Mac ii SI, a Powerbook or two and a G3 tower.
3:11 AM
@Daniel I just discovered your answer apple.stackexchange.com/a/28872/13541 here. Thanks. I was just about to do this. Now I won't.
3:39 AM
Leaving this here for later reference;
in Ask Different Town Hall Chat, 2 mins ago, by bmike
@MichaelMrozek Simple - the site belongs to the users. Apple users are as a class less likely to be computer scientists or linux admins, or super users or heaven forbid programmers.
3:54 AM
in Ask Different Town Hall Chat, 3 mins ago, by Daniel
@WheatWilliams Platform pantheistic knowledge magpies. That's who we need to attract here.
But since "I posted it" I can't star it. Booooooooo
But if you'll excuse me, I have company over (have for an hour and a half! oops!), off to relax tonight, and on towards 10K network rep tomorrow!
Again, good luck everyone.
@JasonSalaz good luck, and have fun with your company.
It wasn't really much of a "debate" -- people mostly agreed about most things. Which is a good thing, as far as I'm concerned.
4:11 AM
WOAH - that was sort of intense....
@JasonSalaz Oh man - I should have said SOME apple users. It looks like I was dissing all apple users, doesn't it?
Intense doesn't begin to describe it.
I'm still spinning.
But I'm happy with my closing statement.
And I didn't read anything you said as dissing anyone, @bmike
4:26 AM
@Daniel I kept trying to make my answers shorter - perhaps that one was too short. I will hit up the asker of that question. I would put our site here up against any one and we could go blow for blow pointing out lame and weak questions. I bet for each one he finds here - I could find several of similar or worse quality on
I ran into the character limit several times. Concise and quick -- I can do one with my answers.
5:15 AM
@KyleCronin are you around?
@NathanGreenstein Hope the driving went well. Great questions!
@Daniel Thanks :)
I remember my Town Hall
Intense is the right word.
Although, looking back at some of my responses, I fail to understand how I was ever elected ;)
5:37 AM
How was driving?
@bmike I wouldn't call it a diss. Your sentence made it seem like a "majority", which is what I was contesting.
@JasonSalaz I appreciate your critical eye. I would clearly have done the same had someone else typed the words I had. You were probably right to shelve the issue given what else was going on - but I wouldn't have minded it a bit.
5:56 AM
The first election was weird, besides Kyle we didn't really have critical mass of fame to vote on.
To think, Kyle technically didn't run.
He just got hand-jammed in after the fact.
7 hours later…
1:08 PM
@bmike Concise, quick, precise: choose two. That's what I should have said last night. Which proves the point...
Hehe, I spent 13 years as a Unix and Lunix admin/superuser, and am secretly a programmer wannabe
2:05 PM
I just read through (questions only) last years, looks like a lot tougher scrutiny than todays
I completely misinterpreted bmike's statement. Reading too fast. I inserted a "rigid" or something like it to read "Apple users are as a class less likely to be rigid than computer scientists or linux admins, or super users or heaven forbid programmers." Saying that our questions were softer because of the nature of our people.
Less likely to think in binary; more likely to "Think different"
But that's not what he said.
@stuffe There was less history to go on than today. Certainly with @JasonSalaz or @bmike there's nothing to prove here. If voters don't know what they're getting with them, they shouldn't be voting. One might reasonably not like or disagree with their style, in which case they should vote for an alternative, but in those two cases, the questions didn't really illuminate much that they hadn't already demonstrated.
Last year voters were making more of leap of faith.
Except for @KyleCronin
I agree, I didn't ask any questions because I already knew everything I needed to about the candidates
Now the nature of the community has gelled. The identities of the participants is fairly clear.
I stand by my closing statement.
SE is moderated by its users. Many of us have been acting as moderators for months (or years, in the case of @JasonSalaz). You don't put a diamond next to someone's name to make them a moderator. You find people who are moderating the site and give them the diamond so they have better tools to get the job done that they are already doing.
@KyleCronin That's why I pinged you last night. I was wondering why you didn't ask any questions.
You were chatting before the chat, but then all but disappeared, and I wanted to make sure you were ok.
yeah, fine, I never intended on asking during the chat
I found the event informative.
It helped me decide who to vote for.
2:14 PM
did you change your mind?
I hope you have gone back and read the additions ;)
Of course I read your comments.
I got up early this morning to do that.
I was only surprised by 1 set of answers.
I wanted to vote for more people than I had votes, and the event's answers convinced me which three to vote for. Rather decisively.
What's the policy on discussing votes and voting/other candidates?
2:19 PM
there's no explicitly policy, but you could hurt feelings if you say you didn't vote for someone
I think I shall resist from naming names now or later.
I don't want to hurt feelings, and I'm not naming names (here, now), but yes, some people's answers made it easier to decide who to vote for.
No one convinced me they shouldn't be a moderator. Some people convinced me that it wasn't time for them here yet.
But if they do get elected, I'm sure they'll grow into the role very well.
No scary red flags (says the resident raiser of red flags on the site)
If I don't get elected, I keep working on the Marshal badge.
And getting to 10K to get the tools I think would help me work here.
it's annoying that there are 6 more days until the election closes
practically an eternity
But this site has two ♦moderators, but many moderators.
Yeah, the campaigning is done, as it were.
2:23 PM
6 more days... I might need to take a mini-vacation from Ask Different for a few of them
To not stress about it too much.
If I do, don't worry, I'll be back.
Elected or no.
Might be good to throw in some unofficial "topic of the day" in chat for the next few days.
Could be good.
Be nice as a way to get to know everyone, regardless of voting.
@Daniel that's good to hear. there were a few people from the last election that disappeared almost as soon as the election was over
Doesn't even have to be about Ask Different.
2:24 PM
@stuffe I've really enjoyed getting to know you since you nominated yourself.
same here
I was sporadic and quiet previously. it took something big to talk about to get going.
You assume that you are circling the clique when you first enter a lot of chat rooms etc
I was intimidated by chat when I started. Never chatted much on the internet before.
Kyle, the way I see it, Jason, and bmike, and gentmatt, and stuffe, and daviesgeek, and I, and others (and I'm sure I'm leaving out names I should be including!) already do a lot to edit and guide the site on a regular basis, mostly, I'd hope, for the better. Putting a ♦ next to any of our names would give us more tools and perhaps more influence to do the jobs we're already doing. But the ♦ doesn't make someone a moderator. The work they do does.
yes, I agree (and you've said that several times)
I know. I repeat my self. A lot. It was a insight I had last night, and I keep repeating it over and over to myself, because it made a lot of pieces of my life unrelated to this site make a whole lot of sense.
2:37 PM
I might have to use a proper name if I get elected.
For a start, stüffé is very hard to pronounce ;)
I keep thinking you're German with that umlaut as a gravitar
And not all that easy to type
But you're in the UK, right?
That's just a pixelmator mash up of a normal @ sign
UK, British born and bred
It's just a made up word from an old TV show that no-one remembers.
It's amusing to see people try to guess the origin and pronounce it "stoofy" or "stuffy" or "Stewf"
Steu-fay ?
2:41 PM
just "stuff"
stuff. Interesting.
"But anyway, what’s with the name “stüffé”? Well, that’s kind of hard to adequately explain the origins of, but to me stüffe is just stuff, only clearly more interesting, and spelled wrong. Got that? Good."
stuff is stuff.
From my blog about page
2:42 PM
If you google it one of the first hits is a "Cthulhu" stuffed toy :)
TOPIC OF THE DAY - Explain your online pseudonyms
Good morning (or appropriate time of day)
Good morning @jaberg
Afternoon here, but don't let that stop you partaking in the topic of the day :P
@stuffe Just read your campaign bio and learned you're also an Amiga fan.
Pseudonyms: jaberg = first initial, middle initial, last name.
rigger, or riggerjeff, reflects my hobbies and a brief stint as a yacht rigger.
Daniel - it's my first name
(not so creative)
2:58 PM
@Jaberg Yup, I loved my Amiga 500 in a way that was not healthy
@Daniel I'm also a Daniel irl
I recall you mentioning that at some point
@stuffe I used to work at an Amiga only computer store and did a stint with the ad agency handling te Amiga campaign.
3:12 PM
LOL. If you're jealous of that your Amiga love is indeed unhealthy.
I suppose I should have read through the Town Hall transcript before casting my moderator vote, eh? Oh well, I just did it by height. ;)
You can amend your vote anyway. I did already :)
Nah. I'm satisfied based on my pre-existing impressions, observations and interactions.
3:32 PM
@stuffe oh no - don't even think of changing it.
You have a profile text area to put whatever you want people to see - names, emails, fake names, etc...
I just need to know how @KyleCronin came up with such a ridiculous pseudonym ;)
G'mornin @bmike
Is there any way to tell how close you are to some of the badges? Some pages give you progress indicators, others seem to be a black hole...
Trying not to go on a foolish badge spree to bump my stats as it would fool no-one alway, but got me interested in seeing which ones you were close to
I choose the "random surprise" approach to badge acquisition.
@jaberg hey there
3:43 PM
@bmike I didn't like to mention AIX, although it was my first Unix.
@stuffe Some of the harder badges show up in the review tab once you have earned that privilege. I recall it showing how many edits you were away from copy editor. The tag page currently shows me progress towards the copy editor silver badge.
@bmike it's like this: Simple with custom clever bits: AIX, traditional slice your partitions with a marker pen: Solaris, Hideously horrible with bits that should be simple but never are, HPUX
@stuffe I still can't get over the BSD differences once I got used to AIX's curation and standardization of commands
vm_stat and iostat on darwin. AIX did have lots of cruft added to the terminal (all the smitty menus) but it did have some really great points. Oh - and it was stable so tunable and unlikely to leak RAM or even leak VM
My favourite Unix is Solaris, then AIX. I hate HP-UX. Linux does't count, for me, I loath almost every aspect of them, then you have the weirdigans like SCO, Escala, Numa, Tru64 - all nasty
Somehow I managed to avoid any sort of solaris involvement - even when we sold our systems into hard core solaris shops - we usually brought our IBM hardware on the unix front...
3:48 PM
Once spent many many weeks creating a customised SMIT using a modified ODM dump
We had some bizarre HP systems in the navy - but I was more an operator than needing to get into the machine ever...
@stuffe Oh - those were the days. I so need to call on some old deployments and see how they are doing. I wonder if any of the servers have made it past 1999 days uptime.
Well - thanks folks for joining us in the old timer's unix chat room this morning. We will return things to the regularly scheduled Apple chat when everyone wakes up / comes home from work at the usual time.
No problem. I was reliving the nightmare of the AIX server I inherited at NYU. (Never been a "to-the-metal" server guy.
Best thing about AIX: Bootable MKSYSB. Some idiot locked the root password? Not got the OS media to hand? No problem, backup, boot, mount /, change password, done :)
BTW, apologies to you both for my missing the Town Meeting. Took my nephew to a Learn To Solder class.
@jaberg no worries - that sounds like a more time pressing activity - time with family - the chat is here and extended for those who couldn't make it.
3:57 PM
(Okay, new wallet USB drive set up. Must not lose this one)
@stuffe YES! And the easy access to all the software downloads your heart could desire. Pre-patch, pre-release, final release - all the drivers and knowledge base articles (and don't get me started on redbooks for networking, tuning, etc...)
@bmike: Just a reminder. Open House at The Hack Factory tonight.
@jaberg OOh - guests in town so I'm probably occupied - but what time is it in case I get some free time?
I sold a redbook on eBay last week, was amazed anyone would want a guide to RS6ks circa 1997
7pm until… (Officially 10, but it tends to go late.) Guests welcome if they'd be interested.
4:01 PM
@stuffe How was the support from HP / Sun compared to IBM? I find it odd that most of my work is from Apple (so secretive and closed - we won't peep until it's released) and IBM (so wide open in terms of bugs, patches, code release plans, etc...) and wonder where the other vendors fell in supporting admins / users of their software and hardware.
It was odd, I worked for a bank, we had a massive IBM estate, and even had a tiny cupboard with a bored IBM service engineer onsite at all times. When I moved to a new job and started on the Solaris side it was very different, often with 3rd parties providing spare part fulfilment etc.
Usually very good across all vendors though, but of course hideously expensive
@stuffe Yuppers. One development system (for a very large and very important project) spent over $80k on RAM for the servers - once development was done part of the system became a vendor support platform and most of it shipped to become testing and staging environments so the actual production servers cost more in the end.
To change the topic (or, more properly, to introduce another topic for discussion--you can keep going down memory lane as well) what's the current "best thinking" on encouraging better questions while not discouraging new/casual/drive by visitors? In other words. what's best practice for educating the community about quality questions (which in turn produce quality answers).
@bmike trying to find the price list for the Sun E10K servers - the best thing I ever worked on. Scary expensive. Ours used to overhear, we replaced the top grill with a fan loaded one, and I used the spare grill to make my "$1m fire pit!"
@Jaberg Got an example?
4:18 PM
This is typical, but not necessarily the worst offender. Vague. Not enough information about what has been done already. The "off the cuff" answer is "you're going it wrong":
Q: How can I transfer all my songs to iPhone instead of just purchased songs?

rich huisingaWhen I connect and sync my iPhone to iTunes it only transfers over purchased songs and not songs I ripped from a music cd. How do I get all of them to sync?

(I should note that I'm picking on this only because it brought the issue to mind and that I'm more interested in "discussion" than a firm answer.)
@stuffe Oh wow - i want pictures of that!
My take on that one is that Graham who edited the title should also have pushed a comment asking for clarification of what phone/iOS/iTunes version etc, and generally asking for more details - My guess is that he's not actually turned syncing on, but has turned on iCloud auto push download, but it's not safe to guess
@stuffe we're thinking along similar lines. The answer may be painfully obvious, but if it isn't, (and one would like to pretend that questions with obvious/easily obtained answers don't get asked) there isn't enough information to begin to formulate an answer and teasing that information out is a barrier to answering. The burden should always be on the person who cares the most--the OP.
@jaberg My take is extremely laissez faire at this point. I want to make sure someone gets a brief edit in and hopefully makes a comment encouraging a little more detail. I also hope at least one person votes to close it since it clearly needs help. Then the question falls into the review queue. Enough senior members can see it and one will search for a dupe or adopt the question - especially if the OP responds to the edit.
I think the important thing is to not get too worked up and give the OP a week or so to come back. Even if it gets closed, the OP is still able to come back and get an answer.
My concern about "voting to close" is that it sends the wrong message to the OP. Even with a comment, it seems cold and, to a degree, makes AD feel like a "closed" community--you don't get answers until you understand the secret handshake. (FWIW, I'm not "worked up", though I was tempted to down vote and move on.) Just thinking through alternative approaches--that don't involve my asking a series of questions in hopes of clarifying the OPs issue.
4:28 PM
In this specific case - this OP is brand new - totally new to the entire ecosystem - so I'm going to link to the best existing answer that covers the likely question...
That's why we love you.
@jaberg dang - and the question I linked to needed cleanup. Time for more coffee...
Making the internet better is an endless task.
@jaberg I say close away - especially when you find a good link and the OP could actually not be savvy enough to search despite all the warnings that the site throws to a new user when they ask their first question. If the user has asked 10 or more questions, then close with prejudice. Flags and posting a link here is also highly effective when you're not sure you want to be the first closee.
@jaberg Oh - it'll end real soon - have things to do today other than this. (despite how much they pay me as a moderator nominee)
@bmike I haven't asked a question yet, so I was unfamiliar with the warning system. That makes me feel less callous about down voting.
4:38 PM
@jaberg The beauty of having lots of questions with slightly different wordings all closed and linking to the main answer is that people formulate the words in their mind how best to define the question. Google indexes all of that and makes this site more likely to answer someone that googles "how can i transfer all my songs" to this site.
@jaberg spread the word - up voting is good, down voting is great for shaping new content - it's anonymous to all for good reason - to keep the blame factor as low as possible
You've got my downvote @bmike. ;)
Hey, bmike...
Wow, Welcome @WheatWilliams, and other words beginning with "W"
You know, Wheat Williams is my full legal name. But I like your umlaut, stüffé.
4:49 PM
Oh, good. Everybody I wanted to talk to is here.
bmike, Kyle, and Jason Salaz...
Wheat is an unusual first name. If you've hit the history to find that spelling, you'll know I'm Dan really
It's an old family name. I'm actually Wheat Williams III. No middle name. It's a long story that starts with my grandfather circa 1897.
@WheatWilliams hi - how are you - I'm interested in your thoughts on the moderation extravaganza last night.
bmike, my thought is this. I'm removing my name from the election for Moderator.
4:51 PM
I just wrote Kyle in a regular email and told him this.
What it comes down to is this:
I am an experienced professional Mac and Windows tech support guy...
@WheatWilliams is this 133t5p33k
but I'm not fluent and conversant in the Stack Exchange system and I have had very little participation in chats or anything meta. To be a good moderator, that's what is needed.
@WheatWilliams I'm sorry to hear that. You're an excellent contributor to the site, and I hope that you'll consider running again in the future.
4:52 PM
I don't even know what a 133t5p33k is, or what it means, or how to look that up. Which illustrates my point.
@WheatWilliams That is one aspect of being a good moderator - but what about hanging in and seeing if enough people want someone like you to be here.
(Actually, Wheat's not understanding "leet speak" is a favorable trait in my book)
Thank you bmike! Well, don't worry, I'll continue to be a contributing user and if time permits I'll learn more about how Stack Exchange works and how to participate "behind the scenes".
Furthermore I don't own a smart phone and only barely know how to text.
@WheatWilliams a great way to do this is participating in the chat more often
4:54 PM
@WheatWilliams That's an honest move Wheat, and it will pay back in spades next year now you have had the experience. I expect to be in the same situation, I would be tempted to stay in anyway, because either way you should be getting more Chat and Meta experience regardless
I would never ask someone to stay if they had reservations, but sometimes what we see as strengths others might not appreciate, and sometimes our greatest flaws are truly strengths that others deeply appreciate.
Yes, indeed. When we had the town hall meeting last night, it occurred to me that I had very little experience in the chat room. Last night the questions and comments were flying thick and fast, and I was just overwhelmed trying to parse the data stream.
I really appreciated your concern last night to not quantify qualifications.
I have only participated in Stack Exchange for about six months. I need more time.
Thanks for the compliments. I know I'm useful and helpful around here. I'm just not experienced enough, and I recognize that.
4:56 PM
But the time you have spent here has been very good. I expect you'll be a great moderator, either now, or someday.
I don't think that's a barrier.
With the willingness to teach comes the willingness to learn, and the whole Meta thing is just a new tool to get to grips with.
Let's see if @KyleCronin can ping rebecca or someone on the election side to see what's best for the election - will people who voted for you have a chance to pick someone else - i think so, but don't have a clue how the code really runs.
@bmike the whole idea of the STV is so that people can transfer their vote to someone else
Exactly, bmike. They may choose to leave my name on the voting page until the election closes and then just discard votes in my favor (if any). I won't delete my post unless they tell me that is what I should do.
But you only get 3. I don't know why we can't rank beyond 3.
4:58 PM
@KyleCronin Yes - this system handles jolts much better than a one choice election system :-)
@KyleCronin You have my email address. Please write to me offline and let me know how you'll handle this and what, if anything, I should do.
@Daniel you get 3, but your vote only goes towards one candidate. i.e. if your first choice is elected your other votes are discarded
@WheatWilliams you've handled this correctly, emailing Rebecca is the correct course of action
Wheat, I would personally request that you don't remove things like your nomination page (if this is possible), because they are tremendously useful for next years to gauge the sort of experience candidates had before they got the diamond.
I don't want to debate the math behind the Meek STV system, but that's not, strictly speaking, true.
And yes, I might like to be a Moderator in the future. But if so, I'll invest the necessary time in learning the back end.
4:59 PM
Well thanks for all the compliments and encouragement. I'm out.
And I'll still be an active participant, just not as a Moderator.
Even todays Mods were new to Meta and chat once, and the page allows people to see that "once they were human too"
my recommendation if you are interested in getting more experience with Stack Exchange is to get really familiar with going through apple.stackexchange.com/review and flagging stuff and leaving comments on things that need to be improved
Stuffe Wheat and I all joined around the same time (coincidentally, or not, when AD sponsored the Daring Fireball feed). I think we've all contributed a lot since then. Some of us might get elected this pass. I have high hopes for all of us in the future.
(Class of August 2011)
@KyleCronin This is important - your first vote gets all your vote. The second choice only gets partial support if and when your first choice makes the position or gets eliminated so that another moderator can meet quota. Picking your first choice is very important even in STV.
5:01 PM
@jaberg We should consider making it "Wheat-speak" :)
@bmike this is partially correct. your vote gets transferred to your second choice ONLY if your first choice is removed from consideration (i.e. cannot win)
Wheat-speak = English? (some German, and a bit of Spanish, and a working knowledge of French and Italian.)
@stuffe "wheat-speak" seems to be "proper" english. Works for me, but the kids's thumbs would get tired.
If your first choice gets more than enough votes to be elected, everyone who voted for the first choice candidate gets a fractional refund of the "excess votes" that then gets passed on to the second choice. That's what makes Meek STV different from other STV systems.
huh, I guess I need to look at that Wikipedia page again
5:04 PM
I think it's amazingly complex, and I majored in math and political science as an undergrad.
Proper English with punctuation, grammar and other such internet rarities :)
"Do you want to accept that at face value or do you want to do the math?" (Probably misquoted.)
My grammar is fine. It's my typing that needs improvement. ;)
"Is that a rhetorical point, or would you like to do the math? " (Google is my…)
@WheatWilliams I suspect (I hope) that the Meta site, and these chat pages may be a little busier over the coming weeks. There should be a fair amount of chatter between mods new and old, and I imagine a ton of Meta discussion, so it will be a great time to stay involved
and a good opportunity to crash course some of the finer points of the SE system
@WheatWilliams The tack I've taken is to assume that we should all "act like Mods" and to ask questions freely here in chat and (to a lessor extent) on Meta. It's less about hard and fast rules and more about working together to build the community along a set of common (discussed, re-hashed) guidelines.
Amen to that.
I think the badges encourage people to do that, and make it fun at the same time.
5:14 PM
+debated. I can't expect you all to agree with (at first), so long as you come around to my point of view in the end. ;)
"We talk about it for twenty minutes and then we decide I was right."
(Okay, the word "me" excluded from the comment above went into the outline that I'm also working on.)
Where "i" is a subset that includes all definitions of "me". ;)
@KyleCronin This is EXACTLY why I was hoping to link to a short presentation showing how votes transfer - both when someone gets elected and the excess get fractionally transferred as well as when someone that got votes is eliminated.
Hey @stuffe quick question regarding this answer of yours:
in Ask Different Town Hall Chat, 7 hours ago, by stuffe
@kiamlaluno I think it's key, because the Meta community is by it's very nature populated with people who want more than just to ask a question and get some help. It's filled by people who want to help more than ask. The key to moderation I feel is consistency, and this means being consistent in your own actions, but also aligning your methods and approach with the other mods.
You do realize that the question specifically targeted Meta Stack Overflow, right? Not just "meta", as in Meta Ask Different?
Er, in short, no :P
5:22 PM
@JasonSalaz That distinction slipped past me when I read it the first three times.
I had limited time to bash out an answer to all the questions, I missed the nuance there
It happens. Town Hall Chat is hectic.
But thanks for pointing it out :)
I answered the 'soft questions' answer twice, because I snapped into "CWs don't all suck" mode.
I'm sure you could explain yourself and re-answer it.
kind of an odd question too, honestly I don't think it matters at all how much an Ask Different mod uses MSO
5:23 PM
It was just an opinionated question. I agree a MAD question should have been there too.
I took the opportunity to stake my claim and say "MSO must die. Long live MSO."
Looking at it, I'm not going in there to be frank.
"Stack Overflow
Q&A for professional and enthusiast programmers"
I also think that question about how we love "soft" questions was a bit insulting
it just goes to show how little SE and people from other SE sites understand Ask Different
I still love the way it started with Shog9's question.
To me, whilst SO was the first and will likely always be the biggest, it operates on the same basis that users do. No-one in this room is more important than anyone else, and no SE site is more important than any other, and there really should be a different Meta site to cover for this sort of thing rather than assuming that MetaSO is the most important
I think I retorted it well :>.
5:26 PM
(who, unsurprisingly, were the ones with the most questions)
I'm (also) of the opinion that participation/understanding of MAD is a more important MOD trait than participation in "meta-meta".
@JasonSalaz I hated that too, that's just not funny here. FWIW, "make you smile or catch you off guard" is mentioned WAY more in the TL than it is anywhere on Ask Different
(TL = Teacher's Lounge, for those unaware. It's a meta-mod chat room, meaning all mods are welcome there, not site specific.)
all mods have access, but I personally don't find the community there constructive or welcoming
5:31 PM
Okay, now working my way through the TH transcript instead of working. D*** you. D*** you all. ;)
Diamonds and Glitter and Ponies to you too, jaberg.
@KyleCronin Yup - next time that comes up I will offer to go head to head - you pick your site and we can see who fails to find a "soft" question on the other's site first. Sadly the grass isn't really greener over there from my vantage point. ;-)
(i.e. i think all the sites have too many soft questions since that's the cost to having easy entry to asking a question)
by the way, I recently discovered we're not the only ones that still allow CW-style lists: stats.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/…
in fact, I think that we're probably a little more conservative than they are - "famous statistician quotes"?
"favorite data analysis cartoon" :)
goes to start the "favorite Steve Jobs quote" CW
5:38 PM
"not a big deal"
goes to start the "favorite Apple product" CW
Just do a site wide search for "Favourite", then tell me which sites come out squeaky clean!
I think you may have missed my point.
5:39 PM
Speak English! ;)
I know, that was a quote. I was still playing off it.
Ah. My bad.
Didn't want you collecting your marbles and running off the Math site.
TO the math site.
Brain fast. Fingers slow.
hit the UP arrow, you can edit it before we spot it.
And if you are lucky, Kyle won't spot the edit icon either...
Yeah. but I'd have to identify it before you spot it. (Still, good to remember you can edit chat here, I appreciate the reminder.)
Funny how that feature is born out of IRC
5:43 PM
"What tiny casual inter-SE site-xenophobia makes you smile or has caught you off guard?"
except edit, not just fixing.
Oh god, hahahahahahahaha.
Well played, stüffé.
Well I'm off for some magpie stew that will make me smile but won't catch me off guard. Laters.
This is in some ways painful to read. Kudos to those who participated--and formulated answers.
@jaberg Yeah, it is. Not the best medium for such a specific use case.
The digest will help a lot.
@jaberg Q: How long is the window for editing a typo in chat?
5:55 PM
I'm also a little taken aback by what (I perceive to be) the "hostility" of some of the questions.
A: Between 3 and 5 seconds shorter than you need to notice, edit and then push the edit to chat.
bmike--I don't know exactly, but when I went to do it earlier today, the window had closed. In that case I would guess less than 2 minutes, but I'm uncertain.
Ah, I accept that answer.
6:08 PM
Whew. Reading through the TH transcript didn't change my mind regarding our election any, but it sure opened my eyes about some "meta-meta" issues. My impression, many of the question were slanted to profile candidates based on "how rigidly will you fall in line with SE guidelines and had little bearing on the benefits to the AD community. Glad I took my nephew to class last night.
Lunch break. Then no more chat until I finish this outline. Later all.
6:47 PM
@KyleCronin If they don't get our name, do you expect they'll get our culture?
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