Jaami'at StackExchange al-Islamyya

5:02 PM

Ibn

Abbas (ra) said: "Stones are about to rain down upon you from the sky: I say to you: "Allah's Messenger  said..." and you reply: "But Abu Bakr and

Umar said...?" 1

Because obedience is a form of worship, it is not allowed to obey anyone - be he man or jinn - unless it conforms with obedience to Allah and His Messenger .

Al Ummat

Obeying the Prophet is worship, obeying the Prophet is obeying Allah

Allah told us this in the Quran

goldPseudo

@Ali why then did God command us to obey those in authority among us?

Ali

in the previous discussion reg "tashahhud" we have a hadith which says : . When he(prophet pbuh ) passed away, we started to say, “al-salaam ‘ala al-nabi (peace be upon the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)).”

goldPseudo

@Ali if obedience to God and His messenger was already incumbent upon us

Ali

this hadith is by ibn masood and sahih yet the standing comitte fatwaa says that we wont accept what ibn masood did

islamqa.info/en/ref/34535

Al Ummat

5:08 PM

@Ali it was not just Ibn Mas'ood who did it, it was the sahabah

see Sahih Bukari Book 79 Hadith 39

Ali

ya i know

thats my point

see the fatwa,

When he passed away, we started to say, “al-salaam ‘ala al-nabi (peace be upon the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)).”

so you see even the sahaba had this FEAR that they may be committing shirk coz now prophet pbuh is dead

Al Ummat

the correct view is to say "Assalam Ala Nabi...." for the Prophet said that the group going to jannah is what He and hi companions are on

Ali

have you read that fatwa?

Al Ummat

@Ali yes

Ali

the fatwa sounds more convincing to me

ya the companions did ijtihadd

Al Ummat

5:13 PM

The Prophet said that the best of generations is His generation/sahabah, then the one after that then the one after that

Ali

they can be wrong or right bu they will get rewards

Al Ummat

do you rather follow that Fatwah, or the best of generations?

Ali

i will follow prophet first

pbuh

but i do agree that its OK to say alan nabee too

owari

@Ali that's all true. So it is important whom to follow, we can obey only Allah and whom He appoints for us, the prophets and whom the prophets appoint for us, the اوصیا. With this believe we also obey the 12 Caliphs that would long upto the Day.

@AlUmmat agreed

Al Ummat

@Ali then if you follow Him, you would follow the sahabah

of course I am not sayng they don't make mistakes

owari

5:15 PM

@Ali that's an innovation and thus forbidden

Ali

Ya we are not obliged to follow the mistakes done by them after truth has come to us

Al Ummat

It was not Just Ib Mas'ood, it was most of the Sahabah as is clear in the word "we"

owari

@AlUmmat some of his companions including imam Ali peace be upon him didn't do that

Ali

this was the ijtihaad of Ibn Mas’ood (may Allaah be pleased with him), which differed from that of one who was more knowledgeable than him, namely ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab,

and other comapnions

for he addressed the people from the minbar of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said in the tashahhud: “al-salaamu ‘alayka ayyhu’l-nabiyyu wa rahmat-Allaah (peace be upon you, O Prophet and the mercy of Allaah)”, as was narrated by Maalik in al-Muw atta’ with the soundest of isnaads. ‘Umar said this in the presence of the Sahaabah and they approved of it.

Al Ummat

ok then, you have convinced me, but not fully

Ali

5:19 PM

Its Ok to disagree on this issue but NOT OK to disagree on issue of "yA ALI madad"

Al Ummat

@Ali of course, there is no doubt to me that that is shirk

but there are disagreements

and disagreements will happen

Ali

Moreover the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) taught it to his ummah, and he even taught it to Ibn Mas’ood, holding his hand between his own, so that he would remember this wording. He used to teach it to them as he used to teach them a soorah from the Qur’aan. And he knew that he was going to die, because Allaah said to him (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, you (O Muhammad) will die, and verily, they (too) will die”

[al-Zumar 39:30]

But he did not say: after I die, say “al-salaamu ‘ala al-nabi (peace be upon the Prophet)”, rather he taught them the tashahhud…

Also "peace be upon you, O Prophet" is GIVING to the prophet and not ASKING him

Al Ummat

@Ali Yes, but he will not benefit from it, or from the Salawat on Him

as some believe

Ali

AND FATWAS on islamqa.info are not those fatwas like you get them from muqallids or those who they are like stackexchange answers with detailed evidence for each claim.

Al Ummat

Alhamdulillah

Ali

5:28 PM

and i have seen that they change their position if truth comes to them

and not like blindly following only because you are born with a certain maslak

that is even better

@Ali maslak?

=Madhab

ah.

and infact this was the madhab of all the first 3 generations of scholars

Al Ummat

5:30 PM

@Ali yes

Madhab/methodology etc.

Ali

if truth comes to them they CHANGE

Only prophet pbuh was perfect

owari

@Ali but to me you are not the TRUTH

goldPseudo

of course, truth and conjecture can be easily mistaken if you're not careful.

owari

@Ali how do you claim such?

Al Ummat

@Ali To let you know, you have convinced me, that Fatwa was very convincing Alhamdulillah

Ali

5:32 PM

coz he got revelations hence he was perfect

Al Ummat

@Ali nothing is perfect except for Allah

Ali

any omissions on his part were instantly corrected by revealtions

owari

But then left us on our own without even explaining His book completely so that we can doubt about anything

Al Ummat

@Ali He was perfect in matters of religion, like all other Prophets

they do not make mistakes in matters f religion

Ali

ya

owari

5:33 PM

@AlUmmat He is the Perfect, but Ahlul Bayt are perfect in being human

Al Ummat

@owari He had the highest of characteristics as is clear in surat Al Qalam, so He (if I am not mistaken) was a complete human being

Ali

No there is always a possibility of them committing omissions as they dont recieve revelations

owari

and so was his household

Ali

only revealation is a PERFECT knowledge

Al Ummat

@owari there is no mention of that in the Quran, though I am not denying their status

Ali

5:36 PM

hi @El'endiaStarman

Al Ummat

hello @El'endiaStarman how are you doing?

El'endia Starman

Doin' alright. Just woke up.

Al Ummat

Good Morning :)

El'endia Starman

I'd accept that except that it's actually in the afternoon...12:37 pm here... :P

Al Ummat

@El'endiaStarman same here

actually 12:39 to be exact

owari

5:38 PM

@AlUmmat إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّـهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا , and that الرجس has ال shows the generality, from any dirt and uncleanness

Ali

time to sleep here:))

owari

and I should leave for prayer, والسلام

Al Ummat

@owari that does not mention anything about being complete human being, and you are quoting that verse out of context, I have no doubt that they are high in rank

@Ali Good night

@owari Wa Alaikum salam

El'endia Starman

@Ali G'night!

owari

they are free from any sin and dirt, so they are complete spiritually

Ali

5:40 PM

thanxx

Al Ummat

@owari Insha'Allah, but they were not the only ones

Ali

Ya their tazkiya was done by Allah swt

owari

yes, you know the others as well?

Noah

Salamu Alikum

Everyone.

Ali

walekum assalam

owari

5:42 PM

@Noah و علیکم السلام

Al Ummat

@owari others have been purified of their sins, in other words forgiven

no

Noah

Ladies and Gentlemen.

Al Ummat

@Noah Wa Alaikum salam

Ali

there seems to be no lady here

:))

Noah

@goldPseudo How are you doing my indigenous Indian friend?

Ali

5:43 PM

@goldPseudo are u indian?

Al Ummat

@goldPseudo I didn't know

Noah

@Ali He is the other kind of indian.

Ali

red indian?

owari

those who do sins and then repent cannot lead the others. A Jew scholar did misguide a group of people then he understood his mistake and repent and repent but saw no sign of being forgiven, so went to the prophet of his time and asked him to repent for him, he accepted and asked Allah for his forgiveness,

but Allah inspired to his prophet that how is it possible when he can not remedy what he has made wrong, those who have been astray how can all come back to the right path? This is why we should only obey the infallibles

Ali

?

Noah

5:46 PM

This INDIAN.

El'endia Starman

:8084550 Oh, that's an "indigenous Indian"? Well, that's even more confusing than before.

Ali

@owari you are 100% right

Prophet pbuh is the last infallible

owari

and his household indeed according to that verse

Al Ummat

I did not know there were Indians in Canada, always thought they were in North and south America

Ali

infact beliveing someone to be infallible after prophet pbuh is noting but a covert agenda to try to extend prophet hood

Al Ummat

5:48 PM

@owari interesting

@owari I see

Ali

maybe under different names like imam\apostle\avataar to misguide the general public

El'endia Starman

@AlUmmat Canada is included in North America.

Noah

@El'endiaStarman Dont worry. Sometime confusion is better than certainty.

El'endia Starman

@Noah Pfft. I would've said "indigenous American", not "indigenous Indian".

Al Ummat

@El'endiaStarman ok

owari

5:49 PM

@Ali you are wrong again! We had some discussion around this a previous day with @goldPseudo.

Al Ummat

@owari I have heard that the Household receives revelation, do the shia believe this?

Noah

@El'endiaStarman I know, I know. Then everybody would have gotten it- all at once.

Al Ummat

I thought only Prophet's were able to receive revelation

Noah

@AlUmmat Depends on the kind of revelation.

Ali

ya in shia traditions you would find many stories all mawdoo of angels coming to them....

Al Ummat

5:52 PM

I wonder if there is any authentic Ahadith of Angels comming to people, for I recall that there were some who came to people, but they weren't prophets

owari

There are several different kinds of وحی . Those that are تشریعی and those that are not such, like the inspiration to the Virgin Mary, to mother of Moses, to the companion of the Cave

Noah

Guys and Laides(if there's one), I have a bad headache, any dua?

Al Ummat

@Noah In revelation I mean another book aside the Quran

owari

Let me ask you something, Jesus was a prophet and he will return, will him be a prophet or not when he return?

@AlUmmat you may mean the book of Fatimah, that's never like the Qur'aan

Al Ummat

@owari He will follow what was brought by Muhammad

Noah

5:54 PM

@owari I think he will be a follower of Prophet Muhammad.

owari

@Noah yes but he is a prophet isn't him?

Ali

O NOW WE ARE GOING INTO THE GRAY AREA OF GHAIB PLEASE DONT ARGUE OVER THE UNSEEN

Noah

He was.

Al Ummat

@Noah not in my knowledge, Just make a dua, Allah is close, He can hear you

Ali

?

islamawareness.net/Dua/Fortress/124.html

Noah

5:56 PM

When he returns he could still have that old status of prophethood, but wont be teaching something new.

Ali

@Noah

dua for pain

owari

@Ali I can argue but maybe you can

Noah

Thanks @Ali

Al Ummat

sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/7/12

Ali

and would possibly ALLAHUALAM not recieving any further revelation

owari

5:58 PM

No, the point is that even if the holy prophet was living many years after his 63 no single verse was going to be revealed to him, the religion was complete, so وحی finished in this sense only, no new rule will come, no prophethood will find any reason to exist and continue, he was the last prophet but the door to sky is not closed

Ali

no @owari revealtions came to prophet pbuh even after "today we have completed"...

sealing of prophethood is equal to sealing of revelations

owari

@Ali it depends on what you mean by revelation, Qur'aan is not the collection of all sayings of Allah to His apostle, we also have Ahadeeth Qudsi

Ali

thats why he is the FINAL PROPHET PBUH

owari

@Ali that's your idea and your knowledge is not complete

Ali

AND THE MOST IMPORTANT AND BINDING PROPHET

ITS like windows FINAL!!

you have to use only windows FINAL . IT has everthing all softwares just everything!

alahualam

no one has complete knowldge

owari

6:03 PM

@Ali I don't have either, but don't simply call anything that I don't understand as Shirk

Ali

thats why we speak only about the BEST Knowledge ie. Quran and Sunnah

owari

and Sunnah that is introduced to us from Ahlul Bayt, not the companions, among them were hyprocite

Ali

and what if i understand and not follow then if i do that then its hypocrisy

owari

hypocrisy is also determined by intention

Ali

but yet we have the windows Final with us

it will NEVER EVER BE CORRUPTED

owari

6:06 PM

It is encouraged for us to make ourselved like the believers, but with the intention to be like them not to trick the believers

only the latter is hypocrisy

Al Ummat

@owari we accept from the pious sahabah, like Abu Bakr Umar, and Uthman and many others

Ali

AND Ali gave in marriage his own daugters to sahaba

owari

@AlUmmat Sunni scholars and Shia scholars largely think differently about them

Ali

so they all were loving and affectionate

with each other

Al Ummat

@owari then why was Abu Bakr mentioned in the Quran?

and Ali named His children the names of His enemies

owari

6:08 PM

@Ali quite oversimplification! these topics have been largely answered by the Shia scholars I refer you to them

@AlUmmat that mentioning is not a very good mentioning since Allah always send peace to the prophet and the believer accompanying him but in that verse He send peace only to the prophet not the one who accompanies him

Ali

@owari brother i can only say that you now dont even follow your imams but some fradulent people have masqueraded the teachings and on just mere names of the ahle bayt they are decieving Shia people, i have been there done that!

owari

@AlUmmat the names were popular names, also other Sahaba had the same names, like Uthman ibn Maz3un عثمان بن مظعون

Ali

hidden imam was just a tentative conspiracy to keep the kingdom going on

owari

@Ali I didn't expect you say anything else ;)

Sorry , I should leave for praying

@Ali, after all you will never accept anything from me, you have found the truth

والسلام all

Ali

DO ask ALLAH swt alone with wasila of your best deeds you have done to ALLAH swt to guide you to truth

hi @El'endiaStarman

Al Ummat

6:13 PM

@owari still, it would make sense that no one would or even want to call His children the names of His enemies, or perhaps they weren't His enemies?

Ali

i guess you were bored to see these long conversations

?

Al Ummat

@owari Wa Alaikum salam

Ali

are we the most active chatroom on stacks.se?

Al Ummat

@Ali not sure

Ali

fi amanallah all

Al Ummat

6:14 PM

we are active though

El'endia Starman

6:31 PM

More active than C.SE's chat.

goldPseudo

7:05 PM

@El'endiaStarman doesn't surprise me. in my experience, muslims are (as a whole) far more <strike>argumentative</strike> willing to debate than christians are.

(at the very least, the debate/no-debate camps tend to be far more polarized)

El'endia Starman

9:01 PM

Well, from what I've seen, it seems to me that the only Muslims that go to Heaven are those that follow Allah's commands the best (past some point). Is that an accurate impression?

Al Ummat

@El'endiaStarman Of course it is up to Allah whom goes to Jannah or not, it is not for us o judge anyone Muslim or non-Muslim, but we can say that A Muslim is that who follows the Quran and Sunnah

Sunnah is the sayings/orders, actions, approvals, and disapprovals, that includes silent approvals and disapprovals, and the way He acted

El'endia Starman

Hmmm. Much of the discussion I've seen has been about who's right and who's wrong. Well, right or wrong about what?

Al Ummat

@El'endiaStarman not who's right or who's wrong, it has been based on what path is right and wrong, and some of the discussion, or I should say most f it, is about what practices are right and what are those that are wrong

but The right path is quite clear

especially if you go by the Quran, without taking it out of context

El'endia Starman

@AlUmmat Ahhh, okay, thanks for the correction. So why is there so much discussion about which path is right?

Al Ummat

@El'endiaStarman because today there are so many views, and sects which has been prophesied to Us by Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon Him). So those who think they are on the right debate with those who they think are on the wrong, those who follow the Quran will follow the Authentic Sunnah, and that is the definition of the right, not sunni Islam.

there is a science called Ilmul Kalam which uses Logic and Authentic sources to debate with deviant sects and those who have taken on innovations

oh and to clarify what I mean by "not sunni Islam", what I mean is putting these names before Islam, or Muslims, only further divides this Ummah

hence it is not necessary to name your self other than just Muslim

@El'endiaStarman hope I didn't just confuse you

or anything

El'endia Starman

9:18 PM

Well...I'm comparing what you've said to what I've seen in the C.SE chat room, and trying to figure out why Muslims are more discussion-prone than Christians.

Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some confounding variables, such as C.SE being almost a year older. (Edit: about 10 months.)

Al Ummat

@El'endiaStarman maybe that's it

we are almost a year old

but then again, one must consider what goldPseudo said above

El'endia Starman

Right. I don't remember nearly so much discussion about right vs. wrong in the C.SE chat room a year ago. We also pretty much explicitly avoid right vs. wrong on the site itself.

goldPseudo

@El'endiaStarman i suspect it's because those who are actually prone to such extended discussion are more likely gravitate toward BH.SE than to C.SE.

El'endia Starman

Well, more properly, Truth vs. Non-truth.

@goldPseudo Perhaps? I don't hang out in BH.SE's chat, so I don't know.

goldPseudo

C.SE: 99 per week. BH.SE: 692 per week. I.SE: 1.2k per week.

El'endia Starman

9:30 PM

@goldPseudo Huh, wow. You very well may be right.

goldPseudo

J.SE: 401 per week.

(just to complete the set)

El'endia Starman

...okay, so the better question is: why isn't the C.SE room busier?

owari

@goldPseudo what is BH?

Salam back again

El'endia Starman

@owari Biblical Hermeneutics.

Al Ummat

@owari Wa Alaikum salam

owari

9:37 PM

@El'endiaStarman Oh, thanks.

goldPseudo

@owari Biblical Hermeneutics. hermeneutics.stackexchange.com

owari

@goldPseudo thanks.

goldPseudo

textual interpretation of the Bible.

tends to be of a more scholarly bent than christianity.SE (which is more doctrinal afaik).

owari

I personally like to discuss things, many things I learn through them, and they are not limitted to Islam, many are about philosophy, many about science ;) Personal interest

Interesting is that you say Muslims are such!

El'endia Starman

@goldPseudo Correct. We decided soon after BH launched that C.SE would be more focused on doctrine so as to not overlap with BH too much.

owari

9:40 PM

@goldPseudo thus I guess, Islam.SE is equivalent to C.SE + BH.SE in scope?

El'endia Starman

@owari In the abstract sense, I would say you're right because Islam deals with textual exegesis and doctrinal interpretation. In a more concrete sense though, C.SE would probably overshadow Islam just because of the sheer breadth of Christianity.

goldPseudo

@owari more or less. there was an "Islamic Jurisprudence" proposal on Area51 but it got deleted (inactivity, i believe) and basically got absorbed into Islam.SE when we went live.

owari

@goldPseudo So you can add 99 too 692 to get a better number! Not serious ;)

goldPseudo

@owari yep. we're still winning though :p

El'endia Starman

Another data set you could look at is the number of questions per day. 4.6 for C.SE, 4.4 for I.SE, 1.9 for BH.SE, and 6.6 for J.SE when they graduated.

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