The Language Lab

bilbo_pingouin

07:05

@Flimzy it is an interesting question. After the first few weeks, I am not sure we really defined what is the site about, how we should go to answer the questions, and whether it is at all useful.

Many questions appear to be POB, and the typical refuge is asking for publication, research, studies and the like... but then why couldn't that question be part of Linguistic directly?

I have to say I was expecting something more along the line of The Workplace, Academia, etc. where opinion matter and is fine.

Quill

07:18

Opinion works for most questions

We probably just need to lower our standard for POB closing

bilbo_pingouin

I think so... well this is more what I had in mind when committing to the site originally...

Quill

We need a localised definition of opinion based

Flimzy

08:12

@bilbo_pingouin 1) We have a lot of questions that ask for opinions, in the vein of good-subjective, IMO. 2) The Workplace really doesn't allow PoB, either.

bilbo_pingouin

@Flimzy most of the answers are based on perceived standards and personal experience

here we don't allow those

Flimzy

Of course we do

4

Q: How can I avoid confusions when studying two similar languages?

For example, consider Tamil and Malayalam. They are two very similar languages with highly resembling words. The point is I get confused by the minor differences as I cannot remember them. I usually confuse these words with the Tamil counterparts. How can I learn two similar languages without c...

learning-methods

6

Q: What are the advantages of a paper dictionary over an online dictionary?

It has been a while now since I opened a paper dictionary to translate words from a language to another. I still have two paper dictionaries at home: one for English-French translations and one for Italian-French translations. It has been a while since I opened one of these two dictionaries since...

learning-methods online-learning dictionary

5

Q: Through which language can you learn the most other languages online?

Say I'm a native Tagalog speaker wanting to learn German. Seeing as how there's not an abundance of Tagalog --> German language courses online or in person (and that's an understatement!), I would need to learn, say English or French, to find a course that teaches German. As in the example abov...

self-learning online-learning resources

Those are 3 of the 7 most recent questions with accepted answers.

The answers are all based on opinions and personal experience.

Some others: languagelearning.stackexchange.com/q/471/13 languagelearning.stackexchange.com/q/449/13 languagelearning.stackexchange.com/q/447/13

bilbo_pingouin

10

Q: Should I use my own experience as answer?

I was going to answer a question on how to learn pronunciation without help from native speaker - which I did - but then I wasn't sure if I should do it because my primary base is my own experience. I did give the same advice to some friends but none of them tried my method. I also see that other...

discussion

Flimzy

If we use answer-acceptance as a proxy for "good answers", at least half of our best answers are based on opinion or personal experience.

bilbo_pingouin

your own answer is more restrictive

Flimzy

08:17

@bilbo_pingouin How so?

bilbo_pingouin

anyway, that was just my feeling that 1) many questions are closed as POB, 2) many got reopened on the ground that they don't ask for the experience of users but on research or studies, 3) those would then be suitable for linguistics, where there are already some experts, and 4) we have a low activity unclear scope

I had another expectation of the site, where, similar to TW, Academia, Parenting, etc. the experience of users would make perfectly valid answers and questions would be looking for that.

Flimzy

@bilbo_pingouin 1) If you want to discuss some specific example(s), that would probably be more constructive. 2) Asking for studies may be a bit of a cop-out, but it does address the POB problem. 3) Just because something is suitable on Linguistics doesn't mean it's off-topic, here, or that here wouldn't (potentially) be a better pool of experts. 4) We have low activity; yes. How is the scope unclear?

bilbo_pingouin

My impression is that this is not the case.

Flimzy

@bilbo_pingouin I think the experience of users does make for perfectly valid answers. I just provided links that make this point. Do you have evidence to the contrary, other than simply re-stating your concerns?

Quill

I think there's a need for an opinion-based closure standard

Flimzy

08:21

In fact every single one of my answers provides a personal experience or opinion. And about half of them are accepted, and they all have positive scores: languagelearning.stackexchange.com/users/13/…

@Quill I've heard you say this many times. I'm not sure what's unclear about POB, or what could be clarified. Can you elucidate your concern?

Quill

I was under the impression opinion-based questions and answers aren't okay, but in retrospect, I was wrong... however,

Surely there's cases when questions are really only gonna be opinions, like "Is Mandarin harder than Japanese?"

Flimzy

@Quill I think the key is "primarily"

There is room for opinions in answers (this is true on practically all SE sites)

Quill

and thus my question, how do we define primarily

Flimzy

> To prevent your question from being flagged and possibly removed, avoid asking subjective questions where …

every answer is equally valid: “What’s your favorite ______?”
your answer is provided along with the question, and you expect more answers: “I use ______ for ______, what do you use?”
there is no actual problem to be solved: “I’m curious if other people feel like I do.”
you are asking an open-ended, hypothetical question: “What if ______ happened?”
your question is just a rant in disguise: “______ sucks, am I right?”

Taken from the help center.

Quill

I like the terminology in every answer is equally valid

Flimzy

08:25

@Quill You like questions like that?

Or you like that restriction?

Quill

I like the phrasing

bilbo_pingouin

@Flimzy if a question is framed such that a personal opinion would seem to make for a valid answer, it's likely a poorly-formed question in the first place

your own words

Flimzy

@bilbo_pingouin Do you disagree with that? And if so, why?

Can you give an example of a question that "is framed such that a personal opinion would seem to make for a valid answer," which you believe should stay on-topic?

I'll be happy to adjust my opinion (and edit my meta posts) accordingly, if such a case can be made.

@Quill I think all of the following points on that list (the very last one being a possible exception) are variations on that theme... all answer would be equally valid.

Quill

yeah, they're all kinda implying the first

I just like the terminology; I'll probably end up using it in the future :D

bilbo_pingouin

ok, I think the difference that I see is that user experience is, partly a matter of opinion. See, I have experience in trying to learn Chinese, but that was under specific circumstances from a specific native language, and whether a method worked or not depends on those

and on the motivation that I had at that time

so does that entitle me to answer a question based on that or not?

Flimzy

08:39

@bilbo_pingouin Of course. But the debate here is about the questions... answers follow.

Good answers usually respond to good questions.

A rare, conscientious answerer can provide a good answer to a bad question

But far more often, bad questions lead to bad answers, and good questions leads to good answers.

If we fix the question problem, the answer problem mostly follows suit.

bilbo_pingouin

yeah, but if we consider that that type of answers are bad, questions calling for those, then would be considered bad, and thus should be closed

you can't separate the question from the answers it expects

you also mentioned it as one case of POB, answers are all equally valid

so you judge the question on potential answers

Flimzy

@bilbo_pingouin I don't think we do judge those answers to be bad. Although maybe I'm still unclear on precisely what type of answer (or question) you're talking about.

Is your Chinese-learning experience valid for answers? Yes. Nobody's discouraging this.

I feel like this discussion would be easier if I had some concrete examples of questions (or answers) you feel should be permitted, but weren't.

bilbo_pingouin

that might need some rewording... but in the essence, that question could be good for me

4

Q: Which order should I learn Japanese and Chinese?

Saw this question on Area 51 and I'm learning both languages. Which order should I learn Japanese and Chinese? I already know some French and am fluent in English, so what way would I go from that? Are there analogies between learning Japanese and Chinese versus learning English and French, an...

chinese japanese

and this one is probably a prime example...

2

Q: How much time per day do I need to spend studying?

Usually, I have trouble with time management with learning a new language from time to time. For example, I have the feeling I am spending too little or too much time, which makes a bad habit of constantly changing the time. As shown by studies, not opinions, how much time do I need to spend lea...

time-management

of the first days chaos... if Python Master would add a reference-request, that question would probably be reopened

but I might still be somehow working on the impression of the first days

Flimzy

Both of those questions fall into the "Every answer is equally valid" category

bilbo_pingouin

and since it came to public beta, I don't have access to review queues anymore, so I might have missed a certain wave or reopening

@Flimzy see that's where we disagree

Flimzy

08:50

Then you're just wrong :)

"Chinese first" is valid. "Japanese first" is valid. "Both simultaneously" is valid.

bilbo_pingouin

an answer can be based on personal experience, explaining some specific circumstances, and one would answer the OP

Flimzy

"5 minutes" is valid. "10 minutes" is valid. "18 hours" is valid. And everything else in between

bilbo_pingouin

he is actually asking for studies, so no, 5, 10 18 hours, etc. aren't valid answers

Quill

@bilbo_pingouin I get the feeling he's not coming back

bilbo_pingouin

just did not put the tag

and for the Japanese vs Chinese, the question could be reworded for a pro vs con of one first or the other

Flimzy

08:52

@bilbo_pingouin Well, then: "This study says 5 minutes" "this study says 10 minutes" and "this study says 18 hours" are all valid

The core problem with both of these questions is that they're based on the OP's desires, which are not stated.

bilbo_pingouin

and you get, IMO, a very interesting answer that quite some people are wondering

Flimzy

It's the moral equivalent to "Which flavor of pizza should I order?"

bilbo_pingouin

and saying that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong, isn't constructive in any way

Flimzy

Meaningful answers can be provided... "Well, if you like spicy saussage, you should try pepperoni pizza..."

But the question does not solicit meaningful answers. It solicits opinion-based answers ("I like pepperoni pizza! You might, too!")

bilbo_pingouin

@Flimzy so you mean that some studies indicate that 5 min is good and others say that 18 hours is good? seriously?

Flimzy

08:54

@bilbo_pingouin I didn't say anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. I said your specific examples are wrong.

@bilbo_pingouin Obviously. And yes, seriously. Are you saying otherwise? Seriously?

bilbo_pingouin

no you said I was wrong because we disagree

Flimzy

It depends entirely on the intent of the learner

If the goal is to be fluent in 30 days, you better immerse yourself, 18 hours per day. Studies will say the same.

bilbo_pingouin

@Flimzy I'm waiting for studies to have that large discrepancies

Flimzy

@bilbo_pingouin Try google. You'll find tons.

Practically every scientific study, on every topic, has counter studies.

bilbo_pingouin

I haven't studied linguistics, so I might be wrong about the standards, but from my field of research, those were inexistant

Flimzy

08:55

@bilbo_pingouin No, I said you're wrong, because your reasoning is incorrect, which leads you to a wrong conclusion.

@bilbo_pingouin What is your area of study?

bilbo_pingouin

@Flimzy that'd make 2, not an infinite number

@Flimzy physics

Quill

I think this conversation has got to the point where it's obscured from our base intentions and views

Flimzy

@bilbo_pingouin Well physics, and mathematics, may be special cases, as they are more or less exact sciences.

When it comes to psycohology, nutrition, environmental science, astronomy, quantum physics, etc, studies are all over the place.

bilbo_pingouin

in any case, wrong is a moral judgement, and I think I disagree with your view, your premisces and your conclusion. Hence, my difference with my expectation of the site and its reality.

Flimzy

When companies get involved, it gets even worse.

@bilbo_pingouin I'm not making a moral judgement. I'm making a factual one. If you prefer the term "incorrect", that's fine.

@bilbo_pingouin: Related: youtube.com/watch?v=pYhme8D30QE

bilbo_pingouin

08:59

no, the only objective is that we disagree. Anything else is judgemental. You are not the spokeperson of the community (yet..), so you are not the sole decider of what is right and wrong or correct and incorrect.

Flimzy

On the particular case of how much time to spend studying per day... if there are any studies on that (which is doubtful, in my mind), they would, by necessity, be taylored to a specific goal "To become fluent in 30 days..." "To read the Iliad in its native Greek in a y ear..."

@bilbo_pingouin I don't need to be a spokesperson to see that your logic is flawed.

bilbo_pingouin

and I have read enough astronomy and quantum physics publications to know that there aren't an infinite number of answers that you can pick from and say whatever you want.

Flimzy

And that the examples you offered are not examples where the community's judgement is wrong.

bilbo_pingouin

There might be competiting hypothesis, but the number is limited to usually 2 or 3, and presenting all of them would make it good answers.

@Flimzy those aren't studies. Hence your premisces are flawed :)

Quill

Okay, do you both agree that some potential questions are primarily opinion-based and aren't good for the community?

bilbo_pingouin

09:03

I do. I think the problem is where to set the line.

Flimzy

@Quill Absolutely

bilbo_pingouin

And I got the impression from the first days, that that line was wrongly set. Making LL a subset of Linguistics only. So making the whole site useless.

Quill

We need terminology that clearly defines that line

Flimzy

@bilbo_pingouin And why aren't they studies? Because no researcher would be naïve enough to do a study on the optimal daily study time, because no researcher (barring a possible corporate mandate) would be stupid enough to think that an objective answer can be reached.

In physics it's more or less possible to isolate an experiment to a single variable.

Quill

@bilbo_pingouin The first days are the first days; it's an early stage of development and doesn't define the future trends

Flimzy

09:05

In psychology (of which learning is a subset), this is not possible.

There are too many variables inherent in the question "How long should I study each day?"

Anyone attempting to answer this with scientific evidence will have to first ask which variables they want to control (children or adults? Under- or post-grad students? professionals or unemployed? What is the learning goal? etc, etc, etc)

If the OP would add their objectives and relevant variables ot the question, the question would probably be answerable (with or without studies)

bilbo_pingouin

So you base your conclusion on studies which aren't, and say that there are none because of your perceived interest in the question, so it's only wrong. Is that a sound logic?

Flimzy

@bilbo_pingouin I'm saying it is literally impossible to have studies answer a question that is undefined. That doesn't require any special knowledge. Only common sense.

bilbo_pingouin

I don't deny that some rewording might be required for those examples.... I just say that there is a potential for a good question, and that it was closed on questions of principles.

Flimzy

And if the question were defined, studies wouldn't even be necessary for our site standards.

I guess IOW, the main problem wiht that question si that it's too-broad

bilbo_pingouin

@Flimzy contrary to your view, I think there are some people interesting to get that kind of answer.

Flimzy

09:08

not that it's POB

@bilbo_pingouin I have no doubt there are peoplep who want that kind of answer. I also have no doubt that those people are naïve as to what they're asking.

People always want easy answers to complicated questions.

That doesn't make the questions on-topic or properly scoped.

bilbo_pingouin

Because, people setting school programs, or language course, are interested to know whether 1 hour per week is useful, or it needs 10 hours a week of classes.

Flimzy

I have a meeting

back in an hour

bilbo_pingouin

No they are not necessarily naive, there are real implications of that.

And, for f...'s sake, have you had a look at the ignobel prices lately?

@Flimzy if it's too broad, it should be closed as too broad. It got closed as POB.

@Quill while true... I have the feeling that we are yet to start back from it.

Flimzy

10:43

@bilbo_pingouin The question has elements of both (as do most questions in both categories).

@bilbo_pingouin Anyone who thinks "How long much time should I study per day?" can be objectively answered by science is necessarily naïve.

@Quill I completely agree. It often takes months for a site to develop it's true personality and scope.

ANeves

IMO it's too broad and needs to be closed for that reason.
Then it might be primarily-opinion-based or not; that's debatable, for me.

bilbo_pingouin

Some researcher from Victoria University seeing the best way to learn a new language: phys.org/news/2009-01-revolutionize-language.html

Flimzy

@ANeves I think I agree with your assessment. As my comment on the question indicates, the "should" is a POB indicator... Even if the question was specific enough, telling another person what they should do is pretty POB, IMO. I suppose one could assume the OP means "What is the optimal time/day to study (to achieve some to-be-clarified goal)?" which may not be POB, but is a distinct question.

bilbo_pingouin

30 seconds search, don't have time for more ATM.

ANeves

Interesting, this "learn by listening even if you can't understand"... but well, that is the way we all learn our first language, isn't it?

@Flimzy but is a completely different question, precisely.

bilbo_pingouin

10:52

@ANeves it is.

Flimzy

@ANeves If "What is optimal?" is deemed different than "What should I do?" then the latter is necessarily POB.

Because what you should do depends on preference, your other commitments, and a million other factors that nobody other than the OP can know.

The best we can hope to answer is "What is optimal?"

And that still requires a lot more clarification than what was provided, because what is optimal depends on the goal, time frame available, the student, study methods, and countless other factors.

@bilbo_pingouin I'm looking for the actual text of the study. As with most articles about studies, this one appears not to be trust worthy. No researcher would be idiotic enough to claim they found the unequivocal "best way to study language." That's a journalist's headline, not a researcher's headline.

bilbo_pingouin

@Flimzy may I ask what is your experience with research?

Flimzy

Even the text of the article appears to contradict the headline, though... the body seems to say that passive listening is beneficial, despite prior convictions to the contrary.

But that's a far cry from saying that passive listening is either the best, or a necessary, method for study.

@bilbo_pingouin I've never conducted clinical research. I read a lot of studies. And I do conduct limited experimental research at work, but it's not related to language.

@bilbo_pingouin If you just watch the 20 minute video about studies I posted earlier today, though, you'll learn enough to question that particular article you posted.

Critically examining studies isn't rocket science.

bilbo_pingouin

yes but basing your critical views on a biased estimation of what is research-worthy isn't a solution for me.

Flimzy

@bilbo_pingouin I never said optimal study times wasn't research-worthy.

I said that the question, as written, was too broad to form the basis for research.

I said that any study on the matter must, by necessity, have a narrow focus. The question didn't have any focus whatsoever

As the question is written, literally any study on the effects of study-time would be an answer.

bilbo_pingouin

11:01

so we come back to the point that that question should be closed as too broad, or maybe refocused, but not necessarily POB

Flimzy

Even though they would contradict each other.

@bilbo_pingouin Again, the POB part, in my view (as stated in the comments of the question) comes from "What should I do?"

further, it's also too broad.

So whether it's closed as POB or TB is irrelevant, because the question is both... for different reasons.

bilbo_pingouin

NZ websites are blocked at my work, so I can't look for the PhD of that author

it is relevant. As TB can be solved by asking for a more limited scope. Whereas POB, for that question, means it's fundamentally flawed.

ANeves

@bilbo_pingouin I agree with this.

Flimzy

To bring that question into scope, two things need to change:
1. To address TB, the OP's learning goals and other relevant variables need to be specified.
2. To address POB, it needs to ask what is optimal, not what should be done.

I think both are reasonable... I suggested doing both in my comments. The OP chose not to do either.

So it got closed.

@bilbo_pingouin I've found a few broken links... but not the study itself. If you find it later, would you post it here? I'll do the same if I'm successful.

bilbo_pingouin

fair enough... but that'll be much later

Flimzy

11:07

I'm not sure if the study was ever even published. None of the articles I can find about the study mention the publishing journal.

bilbo_pingouin

it has been cited in many sources... but that does not prove much

no, it in his thesis

Flimzy

@bilbo_pingouin If you can find one that mentions where it was published, that would be great.

bilbo_pingouin

not a journal

Flimzy

@bilbo_pingouin Well, often publishing is the last step of a thesis. But I guess that's not always a requirement.

bilbo_pingouin

nope. First paper on my thesis came 3 years later. And first author was a colleague who continued the analysis after I left.

Flimzy

11:10

Well that may explain the difficulty in finding it.

bilbo_pingouin

victoria.ac.nz/home/about/newspubs/news/… that could be something... but it's blocked here

where I got the link from: languagewrangler.com/how-to-learn-languages-listen-first

ANeves

> Sorry, that page doesn't seem to be here. We've logged this error and will investigate.

Flimzy

@bilbo_pingouin I found that link, too, but it's a 404.

bilbo_pingouin

ok... well PhD thesis would be at best hosted by their university... so I can't look it up on the site of victoria's university

Flimzy

Here we go... thanks fo the wayback machine: web.archive.org/web/20090202072402/http://www.victoria.ac.nz/…

ugh

but it's still just an article about the study

bilbo_pingouin

11:17

the author is a weird guy, in any case: translationbiz.wordpress.com/the-author

Flimzy

Indeed

All in all, my conclusion, without seeing the study itself, is that the results are very over-blown in the article. The actual conclusion appears to be that passive listening to a foreign language, particularly music, prior to active study, is beneficial to the language acquisition process.

Perhaps from that one can get "the best way to learn a language is with a preliminary period of passive listening." But it's hardly "groundbreaking" as the headline indicates.

And it's certainly not a complete learning methodology.

I don't see how that really relates to our broader discussion, though :)

bilbo_pingouin

One of the link above seems to have had access to the study and not just copy-pasting the same article

*Dr. Paul Sulzberger, did his PhD thesis in linguistics in New Zealand about how people learn Russian. He had one group of students who got to listen to Russian speech before formally learning Russian. The other group had no exposure to Russian at all.

Those who spent time listening to Russian before studying it, had an easier time than those who had no experience listening to the language when it came to recognizing individual words in speech when they were formally learning the language. Therefore, the exposure to listening to the language to pick up the melody and sound patterns before …

bilbo_pingouin

19:02

Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Scientific Studies (HBO)

►

that's somewhat tangent to our earlier discussion :D

Quill

20:04

Questions and answers on our site tend to be more complex and require more time to answer. There also seem to just be many variations of the same questions. — LN6595 48 secs ago

Transcript for