The Language Lab

PhMgBr

09:06

@DanieleD Mhm, it feels like a short-cut to make sure the question isn't gonna be closed as POB is asking "what studies show that people that do A can do B?" instead of "Can people that do A do B?"

So everything is turning into a resource-request.

ANeves

09:16

This "resource-request" does not sound useful, then, @PhMgBr .
Maybe the "resource-request" tag should be redefined, or even not exist at all - for the same reason that the tag "language-learning" is applicable but not useful.

PhMgBr

@ANeves Yes, but how do we stop people from using it?

Redefining tags or tag wikis aren't as helpful as they seem.

Daniele D

The discussion about this tag is more or less complicated and could end up being a flamewar.

PhMgBr

Problematic tags should be removed 95% of the time.

@DanieleD It couldn't. I'm yet to see meta talk about tags leading to a flamewar dude.

Daniele D

imho everything is better answered with a resource, but adding the requirement to answer with resources only is usually not applied in other SE and therefore shouldn't here, too.

PhMgBr

I mean, it's just tags.

@DanieleD And the places it has happened, they had good reason for it.

If we start getting too many opinion-answers, maybe we'll start requiring it.

Daniele D

09:21

I was probably exagerating.
http://meta.languagelearning.stackexchange.com/questions/164/handling-of-the-reference-request-tag-and-answering-out-of-own-experience

Quill

The requirement for studies via the tag isn't a bad thing, it just shouldn't be a scapegoat for making things less opinion based

Daniele D

shouldn't it be more seen as an additional wish for studies, instead of a "requirement"

PhMgBr

Sure, but the thing is not what you believe.

It's what and how you want others to believe.

Daniele D

that does not only apply for language learning, this applies for the whole SE

opinion based answers are not useful in general

PhMgBr

Yes

Quill

09:26

Otherwise you end up with lifehacks. try adding a published study to a lifehacks question

PhMgBr

Adds a published study to a lifehacks question

rimshot

Quill

the language learning tag is way too meta, and the studies tag shouldn't be a scapegoat for avoiding being opinion-based

Daniele D

the question is, do we need a reference-request tag?

Quill

@DanieleD do you mean need its existence, or need it for a question to be on-topic

Daniele D

no other SE has it

PhMgBr

09:29

Chem does.

ELL does.

ELU more or less does.

Daniele D

Alright, I was wrong

PhMgBr

They only have a bit different names.

Daniele D

I'm not trying to force my opinion, just trying to understand this phenomenon

PhMgBr

The Chem one is exactly called [reference-request].

Quill

there's been multiple attempts for serious discussion on improving our definition of opinion-based and/or writing guidelines to help avoid being opinion based

PhMgBr

09:31

@DanieleD Well, I stopped participating in this site's meta because I work well in sites where some scope has been defined.

Daniele D

@Quill I meant the existence.

PhMgBr

@Quill But it seems we don't have any clear, localized definition of POB.

Just the general "don't post subjective crap"

Which is practically useless, of course

Quill

yeah, magic word being attempted

PhMgBr

Cheap magix

Quill

I'd love to write up a guideline or something at least to get some start at a discussion on what our definition of opinion-based is

PhMgBr

09:34

Well, I'm not an avid participant in Academia or Workplace, but aren't those two sites all about subjective and still being semi-useful?

That's always been my impression

Quill

Those sites support asking the same (basically the same) question a million times

Daniele D

Workplace is mostly opinion-based, and yet some of those opinions can be helpful. But the way to behave on your workplace can't be scientifically defined as much as the process of learning a language (... in my opinion).

Quill

I'm not going to get closed as duplicate on Academia for asking a question about problems related to a PhD

PhMgBr

Mhm

Quill

Language Learning isn't a lot of scientific studies, imo

PhMgBr

09:37

It is.

Quill

people with experience write textbooks and learning techniques, that's their opinion

PhMgBr

You just need to chat with snailboat for two minutes.

Quill

whether it's effective can be mapped on a graph and prove a hypothesis

PhMgBr

For some reason the studies are very obscure.

@Quill Well, it's mostly studies on x people when it's proved that they have difficulty doing y or can do z very nicely.

Quill

asking whether it's easier to learn one specific thing before another thing is gonna be opinion-based unless you can find an amazingly specific case where someone has written a paper or done a study, proving one is more effective than the other

Daniele D

09:48

or if both languages are related/partially intelligible, you can just suggest to start with the easier one for people coming from OPs L1 (there will usually be more or less reliable classifications about this) to have a basic knowledge about the language family and then go to the harder one.

this would be an explained opinion, with a partially related reference, is such a scenario acceptable for a language tagged reference-request?

Quill

I would be inclined to downvote (and I have) if the answer doesn't contain a study or paper reference

some random person's blog isn't a valid reference, it's an extension of opinion

Daniele D

so how would you handle a "which language to learn first?" question, tagged reference-request?

Quill

10:08

0

A: What should we do about questions that are asking for really specific studies/references?

Really specific questions aren't bad, they're just hard to answer. Having very specific questions doesn't cause concern, if every question isn't a super specific reference request that takes a long time to answer. I'm currently working on an answer to one of those three questions, and I've been...

ANeves

@PhMgBr with a big stick?

PhMgBr

@ANeves Nah, electric zaps

ANeves

I dislike that idea...
There was an experiment about people excessively zapping other people when told-reassured-and-coerced by bossing people to excessively zap the zapped people.
But big-sticking should be fine, I'm sure no one would overdo it. I mean, we've been big-sticking people since the stone age, and look at how much we've progressed since!!

Quill

I'm gonna write up a meta question so we can bring this reference-request discussion onto somewhere with more attention

ANeves

@DanieleD I think that would be a solid and (relatively) objective approach, with references, yes.
But maybe not the ideal answer, and thus maybe not the accepted one.

Quill

10:23

Yeah, it would earn downvotes perhaps, but not deletion votes

ANeves

It would? I am surprised.
How would it not be a helpful or constructive answer, @Quill ?

Quill

If I want a published study, and the answerer hands me a blend of personal experience and someone's blog, I'm really not gonna be happy

ANeves

That's fair and exectable.
But I do not understand "blog" from «(there will usually be more or less reliable classifications about [relative difficulty of languages within the same language family])».

Daniele D

10:42

in fact, I wasn't talking about blogs. it's hard to know the desired quality of a published study

published studies can in fact be bad and wrong, it's not excludable

but, this is off topic, in this case.

ANeves

*expectable

yes, I think you are right

Flimzy

12:05

@PhMgBr Tags can be black-listed.

PhMgBr

Ya

Not the course of action in this one though.

Blacklisting requires considerable community agreement due to the nature of the action.

Flimzy

@PhMgBr Christianity also has [reference-request]. Skeptics doesn't have that tag, but only because references are all but required for both a question and answer to be considered on-topic.

PhMgBr

Ja

Flimzy

@Quill I guess I don't see the problem. Are people unclear about what "PoB" means? Can you show a question where this was undefined?

PhMgBr

@Flimzy Every single question on the site?

The line is fuzzy you gotta agree. @Quill just wants some help to increase opacity.

Flimzy

12:12

I don't think the line is fuzzy.

Quill

yesterday, by Language Learning Meta

0

Q: Can we define what an opinion based question is and how to avoid it?

Looking at our closed questions stats, 50 percent of closed questions are closed due to being primarily opinion-based. This isn't good especially when one of our first questions here at Language Learning Meta was How to avoid opinion-based questions? This really shocks me and really seems that we...

discussion

and the one I asked

PhMgBr

@Flimzy O_O

Flimzy

Which is why I asked for an example.

@Quill That link isn't working for me. 404.

PhMgBr

1

Q: What are the advantages of studying words by their frequency?

There are many word lists sorted by how often they appear during speech (for example, NGSL or Top 100 Spanish words) and also lots of software and online services which make them easier to memorise (Anki, Memrise, Quizlet,etc.). It is obvious that one cannot learn a language outside real contex...

vocabulary

Quill

Yeah, it was a duplicate of the one I asked at the start of the beta, he must've removed it

PhMgBr

12:14

7

Q: What is the impact of studying a third language in a second language?

when learning a third language, what are the relative advantages or disadvantages of studying the third language in either my native language or my second language? More specifically, if I choose to learn a third language in my L2, how will this going to aid and/or harm my learning or that third...

learning-methods multiple-languages effectiveness

These are classic TB/POB's on other sites.

Flimzy

@PhMgBr That's a bad question to begin with, because the advantage of studying by frequency is implicit in the statement of the question. What would make more sense is "What are the disadvantages of studying by frequency?" And there are objective answers to this. There are also opinion-based answers, but that doesn't make hte question opinion-based (it might make an answer opinion based).

What is the impact... also have objective answers.

I'll grant you that on other sites, both of those could be TB.

But PoB? I don't think so.

"What are movies that talk about WWII?" Same type of question... obviously TB for movies.SE. But not opinion-based.

(Unless you want to debate whether a 1940s period piece in Mexico is "About WWII")

PhMgBr

2

Q: Will having a part time or freelancing translation job affect my effort of thinking in second language?

I'm a native Persian speaker and I've been learning English since I was 11. Of course in the first years of learning, I actually had a lot of mistakes in choosing methods that I will never repeat in learning a third. One of these mistake is that I didn't start to learn English through an L2 t...

study-habits proficiency l2-acquisition listening-comprehension l2-understanding

POB, this one.

Flimzy

That's a bad question because it's a Yes/No question.

PhMgBr

It is also POB since there are hidden factors that can't all be expressed.

Flimzy

Asking "How will a freelancing translation job affect..." could be an objective question.

Although it's likely still too-broad, because, as you say, there are multiple factors.

I don't think it's PoB, though.

"I think it will affect your language learning" wouldn't be a valid answer.

so it's not PoB

Let me be clear: I think we do have a problem of question quality on our site.

But I don't think the problem is of opinion vs. non-opinion questions.

PhMgBr

12:20

@Flimzy The answer is all "I think this" and "I think that".

Shrug That's always been a POB sign to me.

Flimzy

In fact, I think focusing on the opinion/non-opinion is harmful, as it distracts from the actual quality problems we're facing.

@PhMgBr The fact that the answer starts with "I think I understand where you're coming from..." is an indication that the question itself is ill-defined (aka too broad). Not that the question is (necessarily) PoB.

PhMgBr

Eh, so let's get to the interesting part. Discussing the solution.

Though maybe later. I need to go \o

Flimzy

heh

I should do some work, too.

PythonMaster

12:34

Good morning! Or night...

Quill

hello

ANeves

12:48

Can you tell me what PoB means?
Point of... Biew?

bilbo_pingouin

@ANeves Primarily Opinion-Based

ANeves

Ah! Thanks.

Daniele D

13:24

@Flimzy What do you think is the problem then?

Flimzy

@DanieleD I would classify the problem as generally "low quality questions". I don't think it can be boiled down to "our questions are too opinion based" or "our questions are too broad" or "our questions are too specific"

I also think it's fairly common at this stage of private beta

On some sites it takes months or longer to really define quality standards.

PythonMaster

14:17

I just hope our site is not too POB or broad to reach public beta, which should be a breeze at this rate

Flimzy

The subject matter is subjective. But that's not the same as POB.

If "Software Recommendations" can make it over the POB barrier, we surely can make it.

Daniele D

14:33

Funny enough, if a site is PoB or not, seems to be PoB.
As previously mentioned, see Workplace or Academia.

Flimzy

I don't visit Academia, but Workplace still closes a lot of questions as PoB.

fi12

21:36

@Flimzy there's no such thing as a bad question; rather only a misguided or off-topic one

Transcript for