Moonwards

MolbOrg

00:01

I meant that spreadsheet. When I copied it I could messed up a bit(at least I got some strange result, and that is the reason to ask) - just check

kim holder

00:11

oh... alright, yeah, i'll save it

let's see, i can download it as a bunch of different formats. Then i could put it on the repo too.

.xlsx - is that universal, like .docx?

MolbOrg

seems that weak point of the heat field is good when day consumption is higher than night consumption. Night kinda 1/3 of day activity. Then it seems to be more efficient about 46%, with night 1/10 of day - efficiency about 55%

kim holder

really? interesting. you know, one of the reasons i was so resistant (besides fearing you could explain it to me all day and i still wouldn't know how to model it) was that matter of how it handles the night.

MolbOrg

@kimholder just press move to in file menu and save it where it was

kim holder

it wasn't anywhere else, it was made where it is

anyhow, i don't know if other people can also download it on google docs. i feel like it would be good to also put it on the repo.

can you download it?

MolbOrg

@kimholder ok then.

kim holder

00:17

i made a copy on my google drive

MolbOrg

yes I can, no problems, however current editing policy concerns me seems to be shared for anyone, idk

copy is good.

kim holder

oh, you think that is a bad idea?

MolbOrg

not necessary, just have copies, just in case - needs to investigate the moment, but copying will be enough I think

ended editing - copy and ok.

@kimholder for my purposes it is better when they squeeze everything they can from the day and are kinda standby at night - for my robats )

or teleoperated devices

kim holder

i worry about the gardens

after you look after the power they draw, what you have leftover if you are only working with a third could be tight

MolbOrg

no, the same setup makes more energy overnight, it just makes even move energy over day

not entirely the same but similar

kim holder

00:24

what? aren't you saying the supply is 1/3 at night what it is during the day?

MolbOrg

yes

kim holder

what i mean about the gardens is that they draw most of their power needs at night - light to get the plants through the night

MolbOrg

the same setup could produce about 1.1MW instead of 0.62MW

kim holder

well, that is certainly very intriguing

of course, i still need all the stuff i need to know in order to model it

MolbOrg

@kimholder yes it is important for bases with people. not my case. but it was the reason why I tried to estimate colony energy back then - because plants are demanding

kim holder

00:26

and of course, right now i'm almost done, and i'm going to move on to the tether complex

i'll work to figure out how to model the heat fields after i'm done with the Starship Congress

god help me, i hope i can get the models i still need to do done on time for that.

MolbOrg

however, if you use plants with short live cycle and then feed them to livestock as an example

or process them in synthetic food

then you do not need night gardens and all that

kim holder

yeah, you can do stuff, but i really doubt you can avoid having gardens at night for the most part

MolbOrg

keep few plants pots for recreation, better out of plastic and finita

kim holder

especially since this is supposed to be a place where people want to live, not where they simply can live

MolbOrg

recreation plants will require 10-100 times less space and energy than food production

kim holder

00:33

if you sacrifice a large portion of the variety in your diet, so that you are only looking after the decorative plants

and forget about trees or anything

MolbOrg

you can have trees no problem - anyway not all people use parks and such

kim holder

i'm talking about the variety you can have in food plants.

and i really don't know about trees. they can take darkness better than a lot of plants, i bet, but i don't know that they would ever grow if they were in the dark half the time

MolbOrg

they will grow at the day time

kim holder

personally? i'd want grass, and flowers, and fruit trees, and lots of things that would probably not be happy at all with 2 weeks of solid darkness

i mean, it is one thing to not be someone who goes to parks much. it's another to live where there are no parks, ever, or oceans, or clouds, or squirrels, or forests...

MolbOrg

yes, that is why space habitats are superior to a moon base. Or why 10MW is not enough.

kim holder

00:58

10 MW is enough for the initial population

besides, you keep asking me the power for The Whole Thing when i'm just figuring out the basic stuff. it's not fair. we'll put in as many units as needed. simple.

don't tell me you aren't doing calculations the same way.

MolbOrg

I use average energy production per human few kW + 10kW for food and recreation greens - this way my consumptions are established from the beginning based on population numbers

kim holder

but your heat fields are a bunch of units, not one giant thing producing all the MW you've calculated

also - industry

the power needs of industry is the thing that is really pretty impossible to calculate

hm. i'm going to need to extend the 'hat'. the plant is on a slope of about 15 degrees.

MolbOrg

01:16

List of countries by total primary energy consumption and production

This is a list of countries by Total Primary Energy consumption and production. 1 quadrillion BTU = 293 TW·h = 1.055 EJ 1 quadrillion BTU/yr = 1.055 EJ/yr = 293 TW·h/yr == Countries == == See also == Electricity consumption == References... ==

US about 9kW per human

for all needs - production transportation electricity

kim holder

economies of scale. that doesn't mean it is the same when you have only 20,000 people

MolbOrg

Germany about 2kW per human

the economy of scale does have some effect, but not in the way you try to imply - they produce also less, so ok they will produce it 3 less efficient - ok then it will be not 2kW but 6kw per human

kim holder

i really don't think you can make that comparison. not while the colony is busy building more colony as fast as they can.

no, i mean there is an economy of scale that is due to there being an extremely diverse economy

and huge. always able to get whatever from the best place.

and a huge amount of infrastructure already built.

MolbOrg

I agree, mostly, however I would separate building process
and secundo - I have no intention to calculate the last watt - I my cases I wish to have an order of magnitude

kim holder

yeah, for me, i feel comfortable with a factor of two or three. i'll take an order of magnitude, but i'd rather not.

MolbOrg

01:26

anyway you assumed they have big enough reactor for initial building - so you did the same

kim holder

i have never sized that reactor. i just sketched something in.

there is a reactor - power unknown.

and that is for the very, beginning. they immediately build the first power plants.

MolbOrg

there is a reactor - power unknown = enough to build initial things

kim holder

so what? your beef with me is that i don't say how much power is needed. i'm just saying i'm being consistent here.

MolbOrg

no, my beef(?) with you that you estimated a low value

I was initially proposing to go 1GW at least

but then I surrendered - because in fact it is not that important

kim holder

13:47

but you insist on ignoring my reference to the population starting small and growing tremendously. i really hate throwing around numbers on this because i have no intention of saying anywhere how much production there is for how many people and what sorts of industry, so i'm spending time i don't have right now on a mental exercise.

the 10 MW was picked only to have a number, i don't feel able to assess right now what the power needs are, and so i'm deliberately ignoring it.

when i assess that number, i'll put in as many units as it takes to provide that power. that's basically copy and paste.

but if you think 10 MW is not much, just imagine in your mind it is for the initial crew and little industry.

kim holder

15:28

i'm thinking of making the mirrors wider so that the pipe can be wider. my idea is that pumping the heat carrier is easier in a larger pipe

it seems to me the one way this unit can be scaled is by making the mirrors wider. or maybe it is possible to reliably pump the aluminum fast enough to have longer mirrors too, but the first options seems like the first choice

MolbOrg

15:42

@kimholder exactly that I'm doing, also I imagine multiple systems like that, that's why I said it is not important to me

will address the rest later

@kimholder that's true

So, found a little error or better to say a thing which has to be addressed

how heating is pipes is done, transparency of pipes, and their Absorption spectrum

hm, ok, not that big thing, but potentially emission losses could be cut 1-10% something like that.

MolbOrg

16:07

"but you insist on ignoring my reference to the population starting small and growing tremendously."
one of the things I asked back then was the question of goal and what they are doing on the base, your answer was they live there for the sake of living.(at least I translated it that way) for me it does not imply tremendous growth.
However, if they growing tremendously, as fast as they can - energy is one of their bottlenecks - because it is required in all processes of the growth - all production, all transportation, all building process, human life support - energy is a thing required eve…

kim holder

alright sure, but the question is just too big right now.

i don't remember it, but my guess is i said they go to live in the sense of 'why was the new world settled'. it would probably be fair to say i more or less meant 'they go to do everything'

i think i should probably say again i'm going to be a little grumpy over the next few weeks.

i am going to be less diplomatic than usual. please don't take it personally.

MolbOrg

17:06

most important do not break yourself )

peterh

18:24

space.stackexchange.com/a/2805/1054

I fixed an already deleted, old, forgotten post. May I ask for undelete votes?

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