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00:00 - 17:0017:00 - 00:00

17:00
math doesn't always agree with how we would like it to be, and defining $0^0$ is not an exception from this
I prefer change in attitude towards math, than changing attitude towards a definition
if something doesn't agree with how you would like it to be, then that's your problem
if you feel like a different definition better explains the situation then you can bring it along, nothing prevents you from that
@nickbros123 probably what the exercise is trying to do is get you thinking about why/when that should be possible
but I would prefer it if those people were also to invent their own terminology at this point, instead of changing the already established concepts
well, not necessarily invent their terminology as much as just make it aware what people usually mean by those things and what those terms meant historically
17:42
@SineoftheTime Anyway, in the end I managed to solve it, I find with both the same result :D
how much time did it take you?
@SineoftheTime I actually wanted to make sure I was doing it right, so i didn't go that fast
I think about half an hour
17:57
I feel like courses are kind of a scam really, not sure what u guys think; Theyre fast, gloss over results, and it is, atleast for me, impossible to stay ahead of the class in my reading of the book which results in me taking in the material for the first time in the class, which I hate
I feel like i would never get the familiarity with a theorem / result by looking at the proof immediately after the theorem, which is what usually happens in a class setting
have you considered that there may be reasons they're like that? :)
@nickbros123 you're right
@BenSteffan Im unable to justify this methodology, except for the possibility that some people hate reading books
@Pizza not bad, but you can do better
@nickbros123 why do you think courses are fast
there's so much material you have to learn, and so little time
sure, you can read books cover to cover, do all the exercises, and learn about one subject in exceeding depth, but that has tradeoffs
namely you won't be able to cover enough material
knowing what to read in detail, what to gloss over, etc. to maintain a sustainable workflow takes time to learn
a course is good in that way: it makes the choices for you, it tells you what you have to do, etc.
ideally
18:04
when my professors graduated, it was almost impossible to study an exam in less than 6 months
I know somebody who basically insists on a similar anti-course position. They take a lot of time learning a few things in depth, reading, exploring, etc. All well and good, but they're at odds with the demands of studying and that person will probably not go on to a research career in mathematics, if they can bring themselves to graduate eventually
@SineoftheTime this sounds more like a local problem than one about courses
as in, per se
sure, people to better and worse jobs at teaching, no doubt about it
@BenSteffan you make good points, but I cant help but wonder, would you not, to some extent, lose some "dexterity" in certain topics? It could really be just a "me" problem, but I have to play with definitions, theorems corollories etc to make myself familiar with the thing
@nickbros123 that's what homework is for
but yes, you make a tradeoff
not to defend pedagogical incompetence (of which there is a limitless supply) but there's definitely value in not having learning be self directed and having to say "well whatever this is, i just have to deal with it" as a backstop to all of the choices that might otherwise be involved in learning
for one thing, it speeds things up, as ben noted
the point of studying mathematics at a university is not just to "learn mathematics," it's to learn techniques and skills for how to navigate mathematics, proof skills etc.
18:08
@BenSteffan sounds very relatable
some people say that this is the most important thing you learn (I think this is Prof. Fantechi's stance, for instance)
there's other things, too, at a higher level
for me right now some courses mainly serve to introduce and give an overview of a field, or a topic
@BenSteffan I would not define it a problem, as it was the norm. People used to take more time to study but be more knowledgeable
@VladimirLysikov the function $d(t)$ represents a varying distance between two objects. The whole point of this constraint is to avoid collision. I believe the function is smooth in this sense.
which would be hard to get on my own, in particular in things close to research level
hi everyone
18:10
a lecturer tells you "these are the features of the field, here's some main techniques, here's some exercises, here are the important results" and after that you can somewhat manage on your own
@SineoftheTime oh, I think I misunderstood your initial message
sure
norms have changed a lot about that
@Sahaj hello :)
I get the frustration about courses, and being behind, etc. We all do, because we've all experienced it.
@SineoftheTime thank you for the link. Yes. I came across this lemma while searching for differential inequalities. What I see in texts is $\dot{u}(t) \leq a u(t)$ but mine $\dot{u}(t) \geq -a u(t)$ but I'm not sure if it falls in the same group.
but these things are tradeoffs, and even if it sounds bad, "such is life" in mathematics
we already have astronomical times from people entering uni to getting to "research level"
As I was saying before, talking with almost all professors of the "Analysis" sector, I've told them that despite being able to do the exercises, etc I don't feel having a deep understanding. They agreed saying that now professors pretend less from the students
analysis as a field is maybe somewhat prone to that
basically, it's better to get a degree fast and not being that knowledgeable that taking your time to fully understand but not graduating "in time"
@CroCo you can try to follow the proof of Gronwall and see what you get
18:20
@nickbros123 Assimilating knowledge takes a long time. Not only that but mathematical knowledge also rapidly diverges into different mathematical fields. Perhaps if more theoretical math could be crammed into high school etc. it wouldn't be as much of a problem.
I feel like a lot of time gets wasted on doing nothing in high school et cetera that could be somehow made useful
I doubt you could cram a meaningful amount of higher math into high school, just amount-wise
@SineoftheTime I guess this is a nice start point. I will see if I can follow the proof. thanks.
do elementary algebra in elementary school, algebra in middle school, higher algebra in high school
2
@BenSteffan if anything, the time could be spent to develop mathematical maturity
instead of mindless calculations
that's true
18:27
what will a student have more benefit from? Learning how to think mathematically, or calculating an integral? I'd say, in most cases, it's the former
@CroCo denote by $f(t)$ the solution in the case you have equality, i.e. $\dot f=-af(t)$, then $f(t)=e^{-at}$. Now $\frac d{dt}\left(\frac{d(t)}{f(t)}\right)=\frac d{dt}(d(t)e^{at})=e^{at}(\dot d+ad(t))\ge 0 $
although you might observe that you run into a limit due to the average joe
hence $d(t)e^{at}$ is increasing
@Jakobian yes but in a lot of social conditions it is basically impossible to systematize the training of teachers for that
so for $t>0$, $d(0)\le d(t)e^{at}$
I've probably made some mistake
18:29
@BenSteffan I don't think thats a problem because in part, the decision if they grow up to be an average joe happens at that stage
it is relatively easy to systematize the calculation of integrals
and mathematical thinking is useful to literally everyone, regardless of if you will be doing math in the future
because it helps you to think logically
@leslietownes I don't know, but I don't know how do you know that either
@Thorgott jokes apart, I think linear algebra can be taught in high school
Maybe no one has tried to systematize it because they thought, why would we put more work into this, where the average joe will keep on being average...?
it's a running joke here already for a professor to say "you all probably know this from high school already" when introducing, like, the dual space in first term linear algebra here
18:35
If you can prove to me that someone has tried improving education in this way and failed, fair enough
yeah, linear algebra to some extent gets taught in high school
@Jakobian i suggest asking yourself, (1) how much do you think you would need to be paid per hour to teach math to literally anybody who comes in the door and (2) how much does your country, or any country, pay teachers
@BenSteffan when a computation is easy, our professors say: this is elementary school stuff
@BenSteffan "my daughter could solve this" - prof about a 1st semester homework exercise on double integrals (his daughter was in elementary school)
matrices can be taught in high school imo
18:37
@leslietownes People who teach social sciences somehow don't complain
yeah but the trick here is to say it with sincerity and not letting on that you're making a joke
@SineoftheTime I think some places here in germany do
I learned matrices in high school
well, computational aspects of course
see
@Thorgott really?
sure, computational aspects
@Jakobian if you were making recommendations about how to teach social sciences i somehow missed it
and you haven't answered the question, hats off to you
18:38
yeah, it's standard
@Thorgott it depends on state, I think
I don't recall learning about matrices in high school
@SineoftheTime Here in India matrices are taught in high school.
but I also went to school in Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania so :^)
fair, darn federalism
@SoumikMukherjee in Italy no
18:39
@leslietownes I am just saying that going from "mindless calculation" to more "teach how to think" is going in direction that's getting at least a little bit more social sciency than math currently is. Where you can't just get away with doing the same things over and over again, but need to actually think how to teach people
there was only an online chapter on 2 x 2 matrices
no one used the online version of the book
Because people who teach social sciences, I don't think most of them can get away with the same formula over and over again
@leslietownes I assumed those were rhetorical questions
well they're kind of not
the reason math education systems prioritize symbolic calculation is that it's relatively easy, which is not to say that it's easy, to train people to do that
Why would you want easy education? That's stagnation in all of the directions!
Both for the teacher and the student
personally, i'd need more than what my state would pay a starting teacher, to "teach people how to think"
but i might accept that hourly rate to teach them the quadratic formula as a black box
and so it doesn't mystify me when my state's free public education gives me one thing and not the other
it definitely sucks, but it doesn't astound me
which is an interesting side point, there's value in memorizing, and mechanically executing rules, and if people were better at that, the world would probably be a better place
i think i got 2x2 matrices at one point in my high school education
not long enough to think of matrices as first class objects in a world that i was a part of, but long enough
18:52
:66265253 nice name
when I click on your profile it appears you have 5k rep
strange
5k on MO
sudden fame
years ago there was a black market of rep points
@SineoftheTime no, that's 5k overall
its across all communities, including hidden ones
18:56
no, 5k on MO
I thought about that, but it appears he's only registered in MO with 101 rep
18:56
There are hidden communities as well?
@SoumikMukherjee really?
You can hide them, yes
from your profile that is
oh, that makes more sense
18:58
gotcha
for example, if you click on my profile, you will have 11.9 k rep points
that's not on math.stackexchange, but on all communities in total
on math.stackexchange I have 10.9 k rep points
which I would have more if it counted the communities I joined and wasn't active in, so I suppose the 100 or so starting points aren't counted into that
i sell my rep points on the black market so i can retain my reputation as a 'man of the people'
how much for 1k points?
you pay one of the giants a fixed sum and they take control of your account for a few days, write a few good answers
this is how terence tao makes most of his money
19:08
is there a black market of black markets? where you can buy black markets?
by Russell's paradox
if there was such a black market, you would have to able to buy it on itself, etc.
I guess that's not technically a contradiction
checkmate set theorists
let's create a petition to buy all leslie's points so he can no longer write messages in chat
2
do you need points to write in chat?
20 if I recall correctly
or maybe I'm confusing comments on main
19:21
isn't comments on main 50?
yes, 50 on main and 20 in chat
19:35
what do u think about the liar paradox
it is a claim, but still has no truth assignment
i like the Yablo Paradox more
wrong room
19:57
@Pizza did you do other exercises?
of that exam I was trying to do the one on relative extremes
$f_x(x, y) = e^{x^4 + y^4 - 2(x - y)^2} \cdot \left( 4x^3 - 4(x - y) \right)$
$f_y(x, y) = e^{x^4 + y^4 - 2(x - y)^2} \cdot \left( 4y^3 + 4(x - y) \right)$
So putting everything $= 0$ I have to solve
$\begin{cases} x^3 = x -y \\ y^3 = - x +y \end{cases}$
I would now add the equations together and get $x^3 + y^3 = 0$ so $x = -y$
so for the first (1) $-y^3 = -2y$ I divide by $y \neq 0$ so $y = ±\sqrt{2}$
and same for $x$
Now I have to deal with the case if $y = 0$
is the function you're trying to min-max $f(x,y)=e^{x^4+y^4-2(x-y)^2}$?
which then implies $x = 0$
@Semiclassical yes
kk. then one trick here is to note that $x\mapsto e^x$ is a monotonic function
so $(x^*,y^*)$ is a relative min/max of $e^{x^4+y^4-2(x-y)^2}$ if and only it's also a relative min/max of $x^4+y^4-2(x-y)^2$
that lets you focus on the derivatives of $x^4+y^4-2(x-y)^2$ immediately rather than worrying about the exponential
Oh right! Sine had also told me that but I didn't pay attention and went straight ahead, but yes it would have saved me a lot of time!
Since I will have to calculate the second derivatives after
20:15
so what points did you find?
$(0,0)$ is clearly a solution
did you find other points?
$(\sqrt{2}, -\sqrt{2})$ and $(-\sqrt{2}, \sqrt{2})$
@SineoftheTime, I've tried to follow your suggestion and this is what I got.

Problem: If $d'(t) \geq -a d(t)$ then $d(t) \geq d(0) e^{-at}$ where $a\in\mathbb{R}^+$. Proof: let $y(t)=e^{-at}$ and taking the time derivative of $y(t)$, we get $y'(t)=-a e^{-a t}=-ay(t)$. It is evident that $y(0)=e^{0}=1$ and $y(t)>0$. Now we compute this
$$
\begin{align}
\left( \frac{d(t)}{y(t)} \right)' &= \frac{d'y-dy'}{y^2}, \\
&\geq \frac{(-ad)y-d(-ay)}{y^2}, \\
&\geq \frac{-ady+ady}{y^2}, \\
&= 0.
\end{align}
2 hours ago, by Sine of the Time
@CroCo denote by $f(t)$ the solution in the case you have equality, i.e. $\dot f=-af(t)$, then $f(t)=e^{-at}$. Now $\frac d{dt}\left(\frac{d(t)}{f(t)}\right)=\frac d{dt}(d(t)e^{at})=e^{at}(\dot d+ad(t))\ge 0 $
@CroCo looks good but since I'm lazy I'd have used the product rule, since $d/y=de^{at}$
I've seen your comment, thank you alot. I'm trying to have full of proof to convince my supervisor.
@Pizza ok. It seems that you know how to deal with this type of problems.
20:24
It is not my proof actually. I'm trying to follow the logic behind the Gronwall lemma but I feel I can show it to my supervisor.
yep
let me know if there are mistakes
sure.
interesting lemma actually.
@SineoftheTime I calculated the Hessian at the points and I find that at the points $(\sqrt{2},-\sqrt{2})$ and $(-\sqrt{2},\sqrt{2})$ they are relative minima, instead at $(0,0)$ the Hessian is zero so (as the professor said) I just have to say that I can't say anything
I checked on wolfram it should be correct
wolfram agrees
did you do the first exercise?
I have a basic doubt. Does $X\geq 0$ a.s. mean: $P(X=0)=x$ and $P(X>0)=y$ and $P(X<0)=0$, such that $x+y=1, 0\leq x,y\leq 1$?
First I thought $X\geq 0$ a.s. means $X=0$ a.s. or $X>0$ a.s., which must be wrong.
20:36
to say that something holds a.s. is to say that the set of counterexamples has measure zero
@SineoftheTime Not yet, I'll do it tomorrow morning
@leslietownes ok, maybe my writing reveals my confusion :) maybe it is better to say $X\geq 0$ a.s. means simply $P(X<0)=0$, but which in turn means that $P(X=0)=x$ and $P(X>0)=y$ such that $x+y=1,0\leq x,y\leq 1$.
anyway thanks for the help @SineoftheTime @Semiclassical
so for example if the set on which X = 0 had measure 1/2 and the set on which X > 0 had measure 1/2 it would be true that X >= 0 holds a.s. despite neither X = 0 nor X > 0 holding a.s.
20:40
@Semiclassical interesting
you're choosing a very roundabout way of expressing that, but yes
yeah, I'm expressing it kind of odd :) but ok, thanks
psie it might help to rephrase that a little. P(X < 0) + P(X = 0) + P(X > 0) = 1 because the events partition the space and P( ) is a probability measure. so that'll always happen independent of any hypothesis on X, and then if you were to know that X >= 0 a.s. that would tell you that P(X < 0) = 0 so the other two terms add to 1
and you choosing to call them x and y for some reason is up to you :)
ah yeah, nice 👍
20:56
@leslietownes what math subjects are your main interests
and outside of math
i don't really have main interests but i mostly like things adjacent to real analysis
oh
Nice
i like logic and geometry rn
And physics in outside of math
i haven't studied much real analysis, but it is really entertaining
So those are subjects from another branch
@leslietownes like Henstock integrals
@Jakobian i think diff geo is connected to real analysis. And logic is pretty much used everywhere in proofs
@leslietownes what's your favourite real analysis book?
21:05
yes, i spend maybe 8-10 hours a day thinking about henstock integrals
@RyderRude it was a github joke
@Jakobian oh :P
@leslietownes do u do research
@SineoftheTime this is a stereotype at this point but i like chapters 2-8 of rudin's principles of mathematical analysis
@RyderRude no
@leslietownes I like chapters 2-7. 8 is okay, but you start to feel the vibrations of the wheels preparing to fall off.
21:07
@leslietownes did you read Saks
xander: i need to live near the edge
jakobian nope
Which books about Henstock integration did you read
My favorite is that French guy... I can never spell it good. Duodonne?
No... there's an i in there somewhere...
Dioudonne?
Dieudonne ?
@SineoftheTime That might be right.
Dieudonné.
That's it.
21:09
@XanderHenderson I'm always right, unless I'm wrong
@SineoftheTime In this case, you're left. You forgot the accent.
French people go crazy if you forget accents
Mr. God-given
it's a good name
@Jakobian i don't think i've ever read a book about this
21:11
i certainly don't own one
i might have had some stuff like that out of a library at one point
21:40
I have silly question. Earlier today I asked about the implication "$f>0$ a.e. $\implies\int f>0$", which is a consequence of "$f=0$ a.e. $\iff \int f=0$". I'm in a situation where I want to prove $$\text{"}X\geq0 \text{ a.s.}\implies \mathrm {E}[X\mid\mathcal G]\geq 0\text{ a.e."}.$$ The proof proceeds by contradiction, setting $G = \{{\rm E}[X \mid \mathcal{G}] < 0 \}$ and assuming $P(G)>0$.
Now, at one point in the proof I have to use the fact that a negative function has a negative integral, but the above equivalence from Folland's book applies to nonnegative functions only, and he has developed the whole theory using nonnegative functions. I'm not sure how to go about proving what I want for nonpositive functions.
What I want is: "$f<0$ a.e. $\implies \int f<0$".
I feel like I have to go back two section, rewrite the definition of the integral of a simple function, rewrite the definition of the integral of a nonpositive function, etc.
any of this kind of thing could be derived from first principles and there's an issue of, why would you do it that way if you had some other way
if you had the other thing as a black box just apply it to g := -f which is positive a.e. and the desired thing about the real number int g implies the desired thing about int f
@leslietownes that's clever :) so if $g$ is negative and we know "$f>0$ a.e. $\implies\int f>0$" holds for nonnegative (measurable) functions $f$, then we apply the implication to $h=-g$ and we get $-\int g>0\iff \int g<0$. Thank you!
Hi, is there a connection between the Lebesgue differentiation theorem
and the Generalized Stokes theorem?
 
2 hours later…
23:34
When I use the command urldate in LaTex, it requires for me to fill in the year, the month and the day, so YYYY-MM-DD. This format makes definitely sense to me; first comes the year, then the month of course and then finally the day. Totally logical. However, when I compile, it displays it as MM/DD/YYYY, which I cannot fathom. Does it make sense to you?
does the best date format make sense to me? yes :>
why the input format is different from the default output format, who knows
probably historical reasons
probably some wacko convention
... ... ... that is obviously not the best date format. my brain is fried
@psie I don't know anything about the origins of the biber citation format, but I could imagine that, as so many other things, was invented by some person in their basement many many years ago, and that they decided on one date format for parsing over any other for reasons only they knew
the output format on the other hand is... not standard american, but certainly standard something
yeah, probably. I'll have to turn to LaTex chat I guess. It really is so illogical that I feel like I need to inquire more.
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