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21:00
sure, you could even remove a point of the interior
@Thorgott if we remove a point from the interior, then it's homotopically equivalent to $S^2$
indeed
@Koro Oh yeah. What happened to him? He's not in the manga either
@Thorgott when you've time, can you take a look at this question of mine? math.stackexchange.com/q/4637324/1118406
I saw that question, but I don't know what "directly" should be. I also don't follow the reasoning in your example.
21:04
Happy birthday @Ted
@Thorgott with "directly" I mean without using the fact that $\Bbb{P}^n \setminus p \simeq \Bbb{P}^{n-1}$
Joyeux anniversaire Ted!
@Thorgott I think that the reasoning I've done works only for $\Bbb{P}^2\setminus p$
Is Ted 70 yet?
Ted is 21.
21:06
Heh, I'm younger still
@copper.hat I'm 21 :)
I was 19 in 2021
well, you either do use that or use that removing a point does not change the fundamental group in dimensions >2 as Moishe already commented
I don't think there's anything else
@Thorgott the problem is that we did not study that, so I can't use these two arguments
I'm sure you described the standard charts on $\mathbb{P}^n$
21:12
@Thorgott only the definition and some example, nothing more
I'd find it surprising if those examples didn't contain any insight relevant insight to this exercise
in any case, it is not hard to write down an explicit deformation retraction of $\mathbb{P}^n\setminus\{p\}$ onto $\mathbb{P}^{n-1}$ only from definition, so that's something you can do
@Thorgott I see, thank you. Is there a question on MSE so I can check if my proof will be right?
probably
I recommend looking up a basic description of projective space in terms of its standard charts
this is a lot easier if you understand the geometry of projective space
21:17
I'll take a look, unfortunately we did not study well projective geometry in general
Can every implicit form be written explicitly
for an equation
@Obliv Using only elementary functions?
How can we represent Heron's formula as a determinant? Specifically, the Cayley-Menger determinant? I've been thinking about it after completing my linear algebra homework last night
I do not know what a non-elementary function is, unless you mean something analytic?
I mean, I know what it looks like. I wanna know how I can get there
21:20
@Obliv for example the antiderivative of $e^{-x^2}$ is not elementary
Yeah have no clue what that would be, but I'm not talking about diff. eq perse
but in general when talking about equations with two or more variables
since something like $x^2 + y^2 = 30$ is considered implicit, we can solve for $y$ explicitly does this work for all equations of two variables
take for example $y=x\sin y$
here's a run-down. consider the open subset $U_0=\{[x_0\colon\dotsc\colon x_n]\in\mathbb{P}^n\mid x_0\neq0\}$ (this is well-defined!). these are precisely the lines in $\mathbb{R}^{n+1}$ that pass through the hyperplane $\{x_0=1\}$ and each such line is uniquely determined by its one point of intersection with that hyperplane. check that this gives a homeomorphism $U_0\cong\{x_0=1\}\cong\mathbb{R}^n$. the complement of this open subset are precisely the lines parallel to that hyperplane, which are the lines in $\{x_0=0\}=\mathbb{R}^n$. check that this gives a homeomorphism $\mathbb{P}^n\set
@D.C.theIII I got $-3$, too. You have to keep track of signs. You're doing $p(t)=\det(A-tI)$ (as I usually do), so the signs alternate on the coefficients of powers of $t$.
@SineoftheTime can we not write it explicitly as $\frac{\sin y}{y} = \frac{1}{x}$?
21:24
@Thorgott This is a standard construction in complex/algebraic geometry, constructing the line bundle associated to a divisor by transition functions.
Ok so you are using the $(-1)^{i+j}$ portion of calculating things
@Obliv By explicitly doesn't you mean $y=\dots$?
@AlessandroCodenotti Grazie.
@Obliv you didn't solve for $y$ explicitly there
is that what explicit means? I'm asking actually @SineOfTheTime
21:25
@TedShifrin do you know italian?
@TedShifrin why would it work in the smooth category?, is my question. it's not like closed smooth hypersurfaces are analytic.
$y = \pm \sqrt{30 - x^2}$
The answer to your question though depends on the domain @Obliv
@Thorgott thank you, I'll take a look tomorrow and let you know if it's all clear :)))
how is $\sin x$ computed by hand again? (not using taylor polynomial)
Because of smoothness — you don't need convergent power series to know order of vanishing is $1$. And the normal bundle comment is something I've taught every time in grad manifolds/geometry.
21:27
@Obliv How you define explicit equation?
@D.C.theIII Huh?
@SineoftheTime I thought $\sin y / y$ can be reduced in some way to explicit form $y = ...$
@SineoftheTime No. Fluent in French, semi-decent in German, but only a few words of Spanish/Italian.
@Obliv What does this mean?
@Obliv don't think so
@TedShifrin oh, I see
@TedShifrin is there a way to "arrive" at the Cayley-Menger determinant from Heron's formula, or vice versa? I've been wanting to ask my linear algebra professor this question but, for someone that can't even ask to be sat at the front, that's not an easy task
Also Happy birthday
21:31
@Obliv Do you mean $f(y) = \frac{\sin y}y$ ($y\ne 0$) has some explicit representation? That's as explicit as it gets. Of course, you have an everywhere-convergent power series representation for the obvious analytic continuation.
@Seiya What is the Cayley-Menger determinant?
@TedShifrin he was asking if every equation can be written explicitly, so I gave as an example $y=x\sin y$
I have an exercise in my book deriving Heron from the fact that the area of the parallelogram is $\|a\times b\|$. The algebra is still a bit yucky.
To pivot, how is the sine function defined exactly? Like $y = \sin x$ evaluates the ratio of the opp/hyp for a given angle x, but is there a mathematical way to write that
order of vanishing in the sense that the first derivative doesn't vanish there? sure. is it true in general that if $f,g$ smooth vanish on a closed hypersurface and have non-vanishing derivatives, $f/g$ can be extended to a nowhere-vanishing function along that hypersurface?
21:33
when computing determinants using the minors you have the formula $\sum (-1)^{i+j} A_{ij}\widetilde{A_{i,j}}$, so I was referring to that
@Obliv do you know the exponential form of $\sin x$?
@SineOfTheTime No, is that the taylor series polynomial?
@SineoftheTime Oh, gotcha. Implicit function theorem is neither global nor explicit. Here's a crazy one. Look at a cycloid. It has parametrization $x=t-\sin t$, $y=1-\cos t$. It defines $y$ as a function of $x$. I dare you to give it to me (globally).
$\sin x=\dfrac{e^{ix}-e^{-ix}}{2i}$
@TedShifrin that's the cross-product right? We did that in our linear algebra classes, my homework problem was to so it for a triangle which is just $\frac{\|a\times b\|}{2}$
21:34
also, add me to the list of happy birthday wishes :)
@Thorgott But for the line bundle construction, we only need cocycles on the intersections of little open sets. :)
@DC But why is that germane here?
@Obliv @TedShifrin I was referring to this question
extendability is a local issue anyhow, but if this is possible, it's an analysis fact I've never considered
Sure, Seiya, we know that the triangle is half the parallelogram. I've never heard of (or seen before) Cayley-Menger.
@TedShifrin Sure, just do this forever $y = 1 - \cos (x + \sin ( x + \sin ( x + \sin (x + ...$
21:37
oh, in one variable, this is the dreaded L'Hopital!
The Pythagorean theorem is just a discount version of the cosine rule, right?
I'm the only who hates L'Hopital's rule ?
@ペガサスSeiya yep
@Obliv I'll give you a gold star if you can make any sense of that, or prove it converges, @Obliv.
It's also called Carnot theorem if I'm not mistaken
@SineoftheTime You obviously haven't paid much attention to my rants in here.
21:40
probably
@Thor You might want to look at the Malgrange Preparation Theorem for smooth functions, if you've never heard of it. It's the powerhouse for a good deal of singularity theory stuff.
@TedShifrin Really? I imagined its fairly well known in linear algebra, guess may be not. A user by the name Jean Marie actually used it to answer one of my questions here (a question you have seen before) and they mentioned it there, I've been wondering about it since
Jean Marie knows a lot of obscure things. I've never encountered it.
The usual (?) way of proving Heron is to get the formula for the inradius of the triangle. I was pleased to have a way just from basic vector algebra (dot and cross).
@TedShifrin I'm gonna try to replicate that method just for giggles
I got to $y = 1 - \cos (\sin(x)\cos(\sin(t))+\cos(x)\sin(\sin(t)))$ do I get a bronze star for effort @TedShifrin
21:43
I actually discovered the inradius derivation (never having studied it) and wrote it up about 25 years ago, when I was teaching the Calc with Theory class.
surely thats an improvement
I saw a similar proof of Heron's theorem on a book of physics ex using dot and croos product
No, that's meaningless. You can't have both $x$ and $t$ in there :P
I guess we can do this. Locally work in $\mathbb{R}^{n-1}\subseteq\mathbb{R}^n$, so we can Taylor at $0$ to get $f(x)=\frac{\partial f}{\partial x^n}(0)x^n+R(x)$ and $g(x)=\frac{\partial g}{\partial x^n}(0)x^n+S(x)$ as they both vanish along $\mathbb{R}^{n-1}$, so $\frac{f(x)}{g(x)}=\frac{\frac{\partial f}{\partial x^n}(0)x^n+R(x)}{\frac{\partial g }{\partial x^n}(0)x^n+S(x)}$, which is well-defined near the origin as $R,S$ vanish to smaller order and those partials don't vanish by assumption.
is it possible to somehow get the t's in terms of y's at least @TedShifrin
even though that still wouldn't be explicit
21:45
@TedShifrin they do know many obscure things. Kind of like how I do some "geometric trickery" and, as Bob Dobbs once said, "invent an equilateral triangle out of nowhere"
oh wait, $x^n$ for $n$-th coordinate was a terrible choice
@Seiya You should do some basic affine geometry. If $u,v,w$ are affinely independent points in the plane (meaning $v-u, w-u$ are linearly independent), then we can write any $x=ru+sv+tw$ for unique $r,s,t$. Tell me their geometric meanings.
@TedShifrin I'm gonna look into this. By the way, tagging me as @Seiya doesn't actually tag me since my name begins with kanji, so I don't see the pings. The only way to tag me is if you can write "Pegasus" in Japanese or click "reply" on my message
@Thor The issue that is more worrisome is how to patch two different coordinate patches together, so you have $x^n$ and $y^n$.
@ペガサスSeiya Perhaps you should alter your moniker.
@TedShifrin Can't. That'll be a crime. I'm "Pegasasu No Seiya" for a reason
The saint of Pegasus that represents hope across infinite futures
21:48
@ペガサスSeiya is japan read from left to right ?
Well, fine. Then don't expect me to ping you.
@SineoftheTime not really.
@TedShifrin Ted is on fire
Put it out then help him
@ペガサスSeiya I know arabic and it's written from right to left
21:49
@TedShifrin Balarka mentioned that to me once upon a time, but I gather it's very complicated.
@SineoftheTime its hard to explain. Sometimes its right to left, sometimes its top to bottom.
Ah no, what I said above is incomplete. So $f$ and $g$ are constructed from two coordinate patches $U$ and $V$. I wanna work on $U\cap V$ with the coordinates of $V$, so in these coordinates $g$ just is projection on the last coordinate, i.e. $g=x_n$ (using sub- instead of superscripts now).
then, the local expression reads $\frac{f(x)}{g(x)}=\frac{\partial f}{\partial x_n}(0)+\frac{R(x)}{x_n}$. it's actually still not clear this can be extended to $x_n=0$, though. Taylor doesn't give me a uniform estimate on the remainder, hmm.
Are $x^2 + y^2 = 1$ and $\sin^2 x + \cos^2 x = 1$ equivalent
@TedShifrin this is intriguing. It seems affine geometry relies on this axiom (en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playfair%27s_axiom) otherwise, trying to prove that for a line $L$ and point $O$ that doesn't lie on $L$, there's exactly 1 line that passes through $O$ that's also parallel to $L$, seems near impossible
That's pretty easy to see though, especially by treating those lines as vectors on some plane.
Okay this stuff is actually really interesting. I've been living under a rock
22:12
BTW, Seiya, you might check out the pdf of a lecture I gave years ago for a regional teaching award. It has all sorts of geometry tidbits in it (including this one), as well as the question of the volume of the intersection of three congruent cylinders, done as Archimedes would have.
heya Sayan
how's it going Ted?
Bumbling along, and you?
Doing fine as well. Annoyed at some math I do not understand
22:21
Join the crowd :)
You giving my old colleagues a rough time?
Lol I really hope I am not.
Do you have any plans to visit sometime?
No plans yet.
What math are you working on not understanding these days?
@TedShifrin Virtual fundamental classes in Gromov Witten theory
Ah, something I know zero about. :)
You working with Gordana?
Nope. There are some new hires who do Gromov Witten/Donaldson Thomas. But I am also talking to Valery
22:28
Oh, cool. Well, say hi for me!
@Ted to be clear, were you trying to imply I need something as advanced as Malgrange to make sense of the claim in Georges' answer? or am I still missing the crux?
Well so do I. From what I understand it is some funny business about how moduli spaces of stable maps might in general be too big/singular and have arbitrary components. So in order to get enumerative invariants out you want to integrate classes against fundamental classes on the moduli space of stable maps. This would require you to define a "correct" notion of fundamental class on this usually horrible space.

This is usually done by hoping for a fantasy. That is "locally" embedding your moduli space into some smooth projective variety, looking at some vector bundle such that some section
I am working in the case of a K3 surface (in general for holomorphic symplectic manifolds) where this fails drastically as you can deform a K3 such that a curve class can not be algebraic anymore. So you need to really quotient out your vector bundle by some trivial piece given by this kind of a deformation. I am trying to exactly understand how my sheaf theoretic picture in terms of the derived category matches with this fantasy picture when I take cohomology.
Also sorry for rant.
@Thor It shouldn't be that hard, but I remember being stuck on the issue.
Indeed, @Sayan, the generic K3 is not algebraic.
well, being stuck I can relate to
So we have coordinate charts $x$ and $y$ and a smooth hypersurface given by $x_n=0$ in one chart and $y_n=0$ in the other. We want $x_n/y_n$ to be well-defined and smooth on the overlap.
I think it does fall out of Malgrange quite easily. Nevertheless ...
22:39
Yep @Ted. There are some results going back to Bloch, where they show that the deformations of a submanifold $C \subset S$ staying algebraic lies in $\operatorname{ker}(H^1(N_C) \to H^2(\mathcal{O}_S)$ but I am having difficulty really putting this into some morphism of complex of sheaves such that the $1$th cohomology gives me this kernel.
$x_n = f(y)$ is smooth and $dx_n \ne 0$ on $x_n=0$. So $df = \sum \frac{\partial f}{\partial y_j}dy_j \ne 0$ on $y_n=0$.
@Sayan $1$th?!!!
What I want to say is not 1th but more like there is a two term complex of sheaves $E^{\bullet}$ and a morphism $E^{\bullet} \to L$ where $L$ is the truncated cotangent complex. Now here you take the $h^{-1}(E)$ where $E^{\bullet} = E^{-1} \to E^{0}$
This $E$ is called your perfect obstruction theory
Much as I love sheaf cohomology, this is way over my head. I'm short, so that's not so difficult, anyhow.
oh wait, I think my earlier attempt works
after recalling the explicit form of the remainder as $R(x)=\sum\frac{1}{2}\frac{\partial f}{\partial x_ix_j}(0)x_ix_j$
I am sorry for the trouble. I think I need to talk with people more about this, because there is something I clearly do not understand here
22:45
the point is that the first derivatives of $f$ except for the $x_n$-one vanish, so $R(x)$ is divisible by $x_n$ just fine
@Sayan It's general most productive when there are other grad students thinking about the same stuff, but otherwise bug the faculty.
@Thor Slow down.
That has been a problem. AG has kind of dried over the ages (less grad students that is)
They lost a lot of the faculty, Sayan. A bunch of old guys retired, and then two of the young hot shots left shortly after I retired.
Three, actually.
ah sorry, that expression for the remainder isn't quite right, I want $\frac{\partial f}{\partial x_ix_j}(tx)$ for some $t\in[0,1]$
Ah, yes, right. Since $f(\bar y,y_n) = 0 \iff y_n=0$, we deduce that all the other partials vanish at a point of $x_n=0$. Therefore, $\partial f/\partial y_n \ne 0$.
I don't think you should need the remainder at all.
22:48
Yeah. I am guessing you mean Angela, Ben and Danny Krashen?
There has been a slight resurgence though with them hiring two mirror symmetry/enumerative adjacent AG folks in the last year. But no grad students sadly
I certainly don't see a way to deduce a smooth extension without worrying about the remainder
actually, my way of writing the remainder isn't clearly smooth either
Ben? That's after my time. I was thinking of Noah Giansiracusa.
Oh yeah he left as well
perhaps I should try an integral form of the remainder, I haven't though about that stuff in a while
I think it's worth pestering Georges with a question, since he dismissed this point entirely in his presentation.
Malgrange will tell us, based on what I wrote above, that near the origin $f(\bar y,t) = c(\bar y,t) (t+a_0(\bar y))$ with $c$ smooth. Since $f(\bar y,0) = 0$, we deduce $a_0$ vanishes, and we're done. ...
Maybe the thing to do is the usual proof of the "stronger" Taylor needed when one does derivations. $f(\bar y,t) = f(0) + \int_0^t \frac d{du} f(u\bar y,u)du$?
This gives $f(\bar y,t) = f(0) + \sum y_k g_k(\bar y,t) + tg_n(\bar y,t)$, with $g_j(0)$ the partials.
Oh, I don't have the formula quite right. I confused my $t$s.
The integral should be $\int_0^1 \frac d{du} f(u\bar y,ut)du$.
23:42
yeah, I agree
so, I think, being very explicit, the formula is $f(x)=f(0)+\sum_{i=1}^n\partial_if(0)x_i+\sum_{i,j=1}^n\left(\int_0^1(1-s)\partial_i\partial_jf(sx)ds\right)x_ix_j$, which in our case reduces to $f(x)=\partial_nf(0)x_n+\sum_{i=1}^n\left(\int_0^1(1-s)\partial_i\partial_nf(sx)ds\right)x_ix_n$ and this is divisible by $x_n$ with smooth result
But your original integral idea might be simpler. See here?
Nevertheless, Georges was glib.
0
Q: About zero's of $f(s) = \sum_n p(n) n^s = 1 + 2*2^s + 3*3^s + 5*4^s+ 7*5^s+...=0$

micklet $f(s)$ be a somewhat zeta like function defined on the complex plane as : $$f(s) = \sum_n p(n) n^s = 1 + 2*2^s + 3*3^s + 5*4^s+ 7*5^s+...$$ where the coefficients $p(n)$ are the noncomposite numbers ( $1$ and the primes ) Consider solving $f(s)=0$. It appears all but a finite amount of zero's...

new question
seems intuitive but i see no way for proof
I think that's the same as what I'm doing, but of course the univariate case looks simpler
the "easily seen" certainly was a ruse, considering it took us a bit to get it work after all
23:57
@SineoftheTime :-)
For large enough $p$ is $\mathbb{S}^3/\mathbb{Z}_p$ homeomorphic to $\mathbb{CP}^1$?
where $p$ prime
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