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20:13
@TedShifrin Hey, my proof of Heine-Borel was by contradiction. I would like to see a direct proof, but I don't think I have.
@robjohn I'm not saying we can dispense with contradiction altogether. I dare anyone to give a direct proof that $\sqrt2$ is irrational. I typically do a proof by contradiction for the Lebesgue number lemma, but Munkres gives a direct proof in the second edition of his Topology.
I never remember. Which one is Heine-Borel?
Some of those proofs can proceed by successive bisection.
compact in $\mathbb{R}^n\iff$ closed and bounded
it does use successive bisection
Which implication are we addressing?
$\Leftarrow$
the other direction is pretty simple
Am I allowed to proceed sequentially or must I use open coverings?
20:18
My proof uses open coverings, but derives a sequence that converges
I was thinking of the open covering definition
It feels like the contrapositive is the way to go.
yeah
It's been decades since I taught point set topology. :)
In my multivariable course, this was the definition of compact. :)
Random opinion: I think the proof* of the quotient manifold theorem is one of the coolest proofs about smooth manifolds out there
(*at least the one in Lee's Smooth Manifolds book)
But i did assign an exercise to prove that every countable open covering has a finite subcover.
20:20
I wrote it up since there was a discussion of compactness here last week
@TedShifrin in $\mathbb{R}^n$?
Yes. My whole course was in $\Bbb R^n$.
But I agree that the obvious proof is to suppose not and create a sequence.
If we have a countable open cover $\{U_i\}$ of $X$ and $X$ is contained in no $U_1\cup\dots\cup U_n$, then for each $n$ we pick $x_n\in X$ with $x_n\notin U_1\cup\dots\cup U_n$. The sequence has a convergent subsequence. Contradiction.
(So closed + bounded proves sequential compactness by a successive bisection argument. This is all in my book. :P)
Anyhow, yes, I'm just trying to get Koro to get rid of the redundant contradiction arguments, not solid ones.
Hi @Ted
Contradiction proofs are often cheap but provide little illumination.
Hi @Lukas
@copper I agree that it's better to produce a $\delta>0$ constructively than to show that assuming none exists leads to a contradiction.
Besides, construction might even lead to an algorithm for finding it.
@robjohn We can first prove that a cube in R^n is compact and deduce $\leftarrow$ as corollary ?
20:30
@Koro yes, if you've proven that a closed subset of a compact set is compact
I have a complex geometry question. Is there a simple proof that the degree of a polarization on an Abelian Variety is always a perfect square? I know a sheaf cohomology proof that works over general fields, but for the complex numbers there should be something simpler
@TedShifrin For me, the illumination of that fact came with ODE existence & uniqueness proofs. Having specific quantities over which the solution exists (given Lipschitz constant, etc) really show up how the various quantities impact the result. Sort of a loose 'sensitivity analysis'.
@robjohn so that way we can avoid contradiction :).
Brian Conrad indicates that you can do something with Riemann forms and Pfaffians
@Lukas Yes, in fact that was just discussed in here a week or so ago.
20:31
ah I see
Leaky asked me about it
@Koro How do you prove that a cube is compact?
The point is that the Pfaffian of an even-dimensional skew-symmetric matrix gives the square root of the determinant as an invariant polynomial.
@robjohn iirc, that proof is mentioned in Rudin's PMA's chapter 2.
Right, Leaky asked me and I explained what the pfaffian was. When he first mentioned Pfaffian, I thought he was referring to differential forms.
@Koro directly or contradiction?
20:33
Yeah, I told Leaky that you were the right person to ask
Well, not because I remember stuff about polarizations which I once knew.
But because I know Pfaffians from Gauss-Bonnet :P
@robjohn I just looked it up again. Contradiction is used alongwith nested interval theorem.
But I believe that contradiction can be removed from the argument there and direct proof is possible.
pet food store was out of livvy's favorites today.
leslie: not doing wordle today?
i got it. 5/6.
20:37
I got my mode score of 4. It was sneaky for me today.
After 2 turns I only knew 2 letters (and in the incorrect positions).
@Koro when you find it, I would like to see it.
okay :).
Nested interval proves that every sequence has a convergent subsequence. That's a direct proof.
wordle is cute, did my first
It's good brain exercise, like sudoku. There definitely is a lot of luck and guesswork, but also some thoughtful strategy is helpful.
20:47
$[0,1]$ is a continuous image of the 2-adic integers which are compact because they are complete and have finite residue field
@leslietownes 5/6 for me too today. I guessed 'spill' but it was 'skill'.
proving that a DVR which is complete and has finite residue field is compact is just the pigeon-hole principle
I'm not used to p-adics.
I had one where I had 4 letters right and it still took 3 guesses. :(
"skill" was quite a few days ago for me.
topologically $\Bbb Z_p$ is just a Cantor set
this time, surprisingly first two rows didn't have even one correct letter and I exhausted all vowels in first two rows except vowel I.
20:49
Right, I recognized your continuous surjection as an exercise on the Cantor set.
my parents were very good a scrabble, crosswords, etc. my sister seems to have got that dna.
I've never been very successful at hard crosswords, although I constructed some many years ago.
just like wordle, there should be a game for finding no. of non-isomorphic groups of a given order.
@LukasHeger how is that?
if i get 2 hours, i can do a hard crossword. good players do them in 30 minutes.
20:52
I have a friend in Athens (a physicist) who's superb at all such things.
@robjohn I think if the p-adic expansion map from $\Bbb Z_p$ to ${0, \dots, p-1}^\Bbb N$ should give you a homeomorphism
Oh, by $\mathbb{Z}_p$ you are speaking of $p$-adics.
Of course :P
Only we sloppy non-algebraic types use $\Bbb Z_p$ for $\Bbb Z/p\Bbb Z$.
rob the slob
Luckily, "Ted" escapes that one.
20:56
. o O ( Ted is dead )
It's better than Paul
So if we have a complete DVR $R$ with finite residue field and uniformiser $\pi$, then by a simple exact sequence argument $R/\pi^n$ is finite for all $n$. So if we take any sequence $a_n$ in $R$, then there is a subsequence $a_{n,1}$ such that the reduction mod $\pi$ is constant. Then we find a subsequence $a_{n,2}$ of that such the reduction mod $\pi^2$ is constant etc. In the end, we take the diagonal subsequence
voilà, there is our convergent subsequence
@Koro Yes
classic pigeon-hole + diagonalisation argument
@robjohn thanks :).
20:59
Actually, when I see Ted's avatar floating away, I think "Ted has fled"
that should give an „algebraic“ proof for the compactness of the interval
Talk about formal overkill, @Lukas!
@robjohn I'll have to float more frequently. ... Lunchtime now.
As long as you take the p-adics for granted, it doesn`t seem that overkill to me
@Ted bye and enjoy!
I don't get lunch for another hour, until our biweekly cleaning person leaves (for which I have to spend the morning cleaning the house, explain that to me)
21:13
going over my old solutions I think I didn't fully grasp the concept the first time around, so here is a solution to a simple question. Wanted to know if the reasoning is correct this time:
I have to determine if this is a smooth curve.

$F(x,y) = y^2 - x^3 - x^2 = 0$

$DF(x,y) = [-3x^2 - 2x, 2y]$

The two scenarios where $DF(x,y) = [0,0]$ are:

$x = 0, \frac{2}{3}$ and $y = 0$ or more cleanly $(0,0)$ and $(\frac{2}{3},0)$.

So now I inquire on whether these points are on my surface. $(0,0)$ is on the surface because it satisfies the equation, but $(\frac{2}{3},0)$ does not satisfy my equation so I can conclude it is not on the surface. But since $(0,0)$ is on the surface, this means that the equation $F(x,y)$ cannot be expressed as a $1$ dimensional manifold.
is this proof ok?
i can often solve some of the cryptics, but miss out on stuff everyone should know.
I know you don't like manifolds so.......shrug.....
@LearningCHelpMeV2 looks fine to me
@Derivative ok, thanks
21:32
manifolds are exhausting
bought a shiny new laptop, but the pen does not work properly. i am loath to return it for something small, but after paying $$$ for it, i am loath to suffer the pen not working. 1st world problems.
i can refurbish it, and re-do your drive. just mail it my way.
:-) new line of business, take the way out of driveway
So from the silence of the current resident analyst Bob Hope I take it I went about things in the right fashion?
21:42
@copper.hat Just take it in ...
@dc3rd First, algebra (arithmetic) error. Second, don't say "surface" when it's a curve.
@TedShifrin need to pack it up and send it back. spent 20 mins waiting on the phone to lenovo returns yesterday before getting cut off.
omg...I actually saw the error when I was working it out and I still didin't put $\frac{-2}{3}$
dc3rd: the approach looks OK. the curve has a self-intersection at 0. locally in a parametrization it will look like a manifold, but the image will not. i forget this crap. is it an embedding, is it an immersion. i forget the extent to which this matters. i defer to ted.
@dc3rd The failure of the implicit function theorem hypotheses does not guarantee failure to be a manifold. It does indicate "trouble points" where you're not sure. But you need to use the other criterion (graph over one of the axes) we were discussing.
@robjohn The direct proof is available (for n=1) in GH Hardy's book in the chapter on limits.
21:49
when you say use the criterion of "graph over one of the axes" that would mean I would have to "solve" for my equation explicitly where one variable would be the function of the others?.....
@leslie No immersion/embedding given since it's implicit.
Summary: Given [a,b], a<b. Suppose I is an open covering of [a,b]. We can suppose I to be collection of open intervals. (For every open set in R is a collection of open intervals).
Step 1: Finding a d>0 such that if S is any subinterval in [a,b] of length <d then S lies in some member of I.
Step 2: Partitioning [a,b] in subintervals (each having length <d).
Done. @robjohn
if that is the case I could "do it" for this particular equation, but I see trouble in my near future if I'm relying on that
@dc3rd You can usually decide from the local picture without explicitly solving.
@Koro How is step 1 done without contradiction?
@Koro I see contradiction in that proof in the book
21:57
This is a special case of the Lebesgue number lemma .
Step (1) is usually done with contradiction but Hardy uses construction of a continuous function in another way.
Got it......at this level of mathematics I really got to let go of the notion of "clear cut" answers. Not much is clean anymore....always approxiamtions.
Ah, so that's probably Munkres's proof.
There are two ways to find such d>0. Then Hardy shows two ways: 1) contradiction way, 2) continuous function way.
@dc3rd You can tell if the graph fails the "vertical line test" for function, for example.
21:59
True. and I can extrapolate that idea to higher dimensions by taking slices of axes
Continuous function's property that: a continuous function on a closed interval attains minimum has been established by that point in the book. @robjohn
@Koro I don't see the continuous function way. Is it in a different section of the book?
Maybe a different edition, @robjohn?
maybe
what you working on Koro?
22:01
Mine is the third edition, 1921
as in what subject.
going afk, bbl
@robjohn please see section 106: Sets of intervals on a line. The Heine -Borel Theorem.
@Koro The thing you just linked is a new version of the book, with Körner's name on it as well.
I have kindle edition of the book (centenary edition): amazon.in/Mathematics-Centenary-Cambridge-Mathematical-Library/…
I just linked the name of the book earlier. I didn't know that there would be so much difference.
22:04
Right, so Körner has presumably changed things quite a bit.
@dc3rd we're trying to prove Heine Borel theorem without contradiction.
I am doing group theory currently though @dc3rd.
but this is analysis at least that book. Good stuff either way. I'm going to do Group Theory hopefully in the spring/summer
you finished Axler?
except the last chapter, mostly yes :). But my linear algebra needs revision again.
Espacially minimal polynomial part.
The best way to revise is through retrieval practice.
:-)
Canonical form is the gateway...I'm still working through Insel....haven't gotten to Canonical form yet, but know the minimal polynomial is involved
22:30
@robjohn: The argument is along these lines as I understood it:
Suppose that $a'$ is mid-point of an interval (from the cover) that has a as its left end and also suppose that b' is the mid-point of an interval with b as its right end.
Define $g:[a',b']\to \mathbb R$ as $g(x)=\sup\{y\in \mathbb R: (x-y,x+y) \text { is in some subinterval of the cover}\}$.
Then g is shown to be continuous and positive on $[a',b']$.
$g$ attains its minimum say r.
Then d is chosen as $\min(2r, 2(a'-a),2(b-b'))$.
@geocalc33 hey :)
How did your question go?
22:46
look at this $\Gamma(z)\Gamma(z-1)$
@PenAndPaperMathematics haven't heard from anyone
koro's working on everything.
koro reminds me of me, when i was between undergrad and grad school. reviewing everything.
3
23:02
I worked that summer and then drove cross-country and tried to find an apartment in a hurry. I don't remember having time to study much in the summer!
i had a whole year in the middle. plus a summer.
lester dubins told me if i went away from math for a year i wouldn't come back. he was wrong about that. he admitted it when he saw me again.
Well, he was sorta kooky anyway.
yeah, i never took him too seriously.
I'm studying CA rn
Unfortunately, many of my advisees didn't take me very seriously when I told them things like — you can't take three (or more) hard math classes at one time. "But I am behind and I need to graduate." Well, failing more of them won't help.
3
The typical adviser just signed the form and the students suffered for their "independence."
23:07
that was my worst advising experience during my postdoc. i told someone, this is too much. i'm not commenting on your abilities, this would be too much for anybody. i was ignored.
about a month later i was dealing with the consequences of someone wanting to drop out of everything.
Unusual that they gave postdocs advising duties.
Interesting, almost :)
Even "experienced" tenured faculty at UGA were often incompetent advisers.
there were some tenured folks who were, not to be rude, dead wood.
they knew this and a lot was delegated to postdocs.
That's true at every school.
The dead wood part.
I remember being astonished to observe that at MIT.
Both as an undergrad and as a postdoc.
23:09
i ended up negotiating something where someone dropped out of some additional obligations they had as part of some 'honors' program. they got through the regular stuff OK. they just didn't have the time.
completely set up for failure by whoever who had (not) advised them the year before.
I did honors advising of all math majors and also first- and second-year CS and physics majors. I inherited one advisee from a general college adviser one term, found out that she had been misadvised (shock!) and tried to explain it to her as nicely as I could, apologizing for the errors of others. Apparently, I upset her so much that her mother called me up a half hour later and yelled at me for 20 minutes (while I had an office full of students for office hours).
One of many times that helicopter parents tried to bully faculty for doing their job.
How could I ruin her poor little flower's life like that?
Sorry if the previous adviser told her to drop a course that was required for her major. Not my fault.
haha. my wife sometimes deals with that. she has the good fortune of being the chair of her department now. the numerous errors in advising eventually land on her doorstep.
I typically advised 50-60 students a term. I think I was pretty competent.
Most faculty complained if they got 3 or 4 to be responsible for.
it doesn't take much. the errors she gets are not subtle stuff..
it is basic stuff.
it's exactly stuff like being told not to take major requirements.
For most faculty, knowing what is in the math major curriculum and what the requirements are is more than they can manage. Adding general education requirements , etc., makes it way too challenging.
23:14
i could do it, if i had the list of major requirements. knowing nothing about substance. and the faculty don't bother.
This student was a CS major whom I inherited, not a math major. But at the time CS majors had to take through calc 3 and linear algebra. That changed subsequently to ... just one calculus! That infuriated me.
wow. if you're gonna keep just one class, calculus is not it.
Well, part of good advising is gauging the student's strength(s) with who's teaching the course. If the teacher is a known disaster, it won't go well for a weak student.
Well, the discrete math for CS course is on top of that.
Calculus 1 is required for every science major.
But they took out two calculus and one linear algebra!
I mean, I can understand why business majors would do better with stat than with calculus. But CS? really?
i think all of the "big O" stuff is impenetrable without a solid foundation in calculus. and series are so useful. even in combinatorics.
I remember teaching a CS major years ago in my linear algebra class. The student struggled to get a D. But got an A simultaneously in the computer graphics class (um, guess what's used in computer graphics?).
23:19
that's weird.
Well, all the linear algebra was a canned black box in the CS course. And I was making students write basic proofs, along with all the stuff on projections, least squares, eigenvalues, diagonalization, etc.
depending on the CS class, maybe you can go a long way cut-pasting from stuff you don't fully understand. if you understand how to reduce problems to sub-problems and find the right code you might not have to do it yourself.
I spent many hours figuring out the linear/projective geometry of computer graphics. I wrote a section on it for our linear algebra book. Sadly, I never got to teach that material. Just no time.
But I was so thrilled when I figured out precisely how Mathematica draws figures from a given viewpoint. :)
a substantial amount of that stuff has been rolled into software libraries where maybe you don't need to know as much as you might have in 2000. and sometimes it's faster if you use out-of-the-box solutions than home brew. still helps to know it.
one of my first mathematical revelations was going nuts when my 3d rotation stuff seemed to distort a cube. i didn't realize something fundamental: the pixels weren't square, so x pixels by x pixels on the screen did not look like a square.
Oh, I admit total ignorance about pixelating.
@leslie @robjohn Any clever thoughts?
23:35
@TedShifrin Just back. I have to read back
Humm. This does not look right. Fermat's last theorem at youtube, it says "What was the problem? For any three positive integers; a,b,c prove that a^N + b^N = c^N for N greater than 2". Here is the link. At 0:39 youtube.com/… it should be "no three positive integers a, b, and c satisfy the equation a^N + b^N = c^N for any integer value of n greater than 2"
Sounds like typical YouTube garbage to me.
@TedShifrin My first thought is that it is not well-defined. There are a sequence of singularities converging to $z_0$. How many are outside $\gamma_0$.
am I missing something?
Oh, so my Laurent series expansion isn't valid.
And he used it too. I think you're right, of course.
@TedShifrin I don't think so. exponential series need to be around $0$, but this is around $\infty$ in disguise
They converge very poorly for large arguments
23:47
Yes, I agree with you.
Sounds like you should post that as an answer.
@Koro How do we know that $g$ attains its minimum? I thought that was usually proven using the fact that it was defined on a compact set.
@robjohn They've proved the theorem on closed intervals already.
@TedShifrin ah... okay, that might need a closer look.
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