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7:13 PM
uh, is there any difference between a partial differential $\partial y$ and a non-partial differential $dy$?
looks like they're pretty much the same and notation just gives context
 
depends very much on context
 
I'm doing a real analysis proof of the chain rule
Given $y=f[x, w]$ and $x=g(w)$, I'm trying to figure why the author writes $\frac{dy}{dw} = \frac{\partial y}{\partial x} \frac{dx}{dw} + \frac{\partial y}{\partial w}$
 
dy/dw is a one variable derivative of the function f(g(w),w). defined as a one variable limit of difference quotients. partialy/partial x would more preferably be written partial f/partial x and that is a partial derivative, limit of difference quotients in the first coordinate of the two variable function f, leaving the second fixed. same with partial f/partial y and the second coordinate.
unless your book has given independent meaning to differentials, which it may not have at this point in the treatment (?), no need to interpret partial y or dy on their own.
 
0
Q: Another question in the proof of A&M Thm 9.5

baristaI have a question in the proof of Thm 9.5. In the middle of the proof, it shows that the ring of integers (integral closure of $\Bbb Z$ in $K$ where $K/\Bbb Q$ is a finite field extension). Then it says that $A$ is integrally closed by (5.5) (5.5) : Let $A\subset B$ be rings and let $C$ be the i...

 
in my more favored notation i would create a separate name for the one variable composite function, something like h(w) = f(g(w),w), and write the thing to be proved as h'(w) = f_1(g(w),w) g'(w) + f_2 (g(w), w). no differentials anywhere, just derivatives, of a single variable function g and partial derivatives of a two variable function f.
but i'm something of a crank on this subject
 
7:21 PM
I don't understand in the proof of 'the ring of integers in an algebraic number field is dedekind', in particular showing the ring of integers is integrally closed, the corollary (5.5) come out
 
i should write up a list of pamphlets where i work all of this out without ever writing $\partial$ or $d$.
 
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
well, back to reading
 
and pass them out on street corners. this would be a good post-pandemic activity for me.
 
yes but what about those poor students who will be asked about differentials in their exams
we are forgetting the 99%
 
if you're being asked about differentials in their exams, you'll be told what they are before then. a lot of real analysis books don't introduce them, but they do introduce $\partial$ and $d$ notation, which can be confusing if you know that differentials can be given formal meaning but haven't been told how.
leibniz notation does not mandate suppressing the points at which you are evaluating partial derivatives, but it seems to encourage people to do it. note that the more explicit way of writing it makes clear what is being held constant when you take the partial derivatives of f.
 
7:27 PM
right, I'll be meditating on your answers
 
which is not only good notation but helps you come up with the proof :)
 
I have written the proof for continuity of the function I asked about earlier.
 
hooray
 
i could go for some matcha right now.
 
7:31 PM
Tedd suggested direct epsilon delta method also but I didn't make any progress with that :'(
 
Did you draw a picture, @Koro?
 
@leslietownes Great ๐Ÿ˜
 
I always made my Spivak students draw their $\epsilon$ fences.
 
@TedShifrin I did.You may have a look at the Latex mathcha.io/editor/mJKl1IkVSxps3WcdxDee8uxwq7y7Ik5kXmXIYzOoKv
Aha. It seems that everybody knows that this problem is from Spivak's calculus
 
i don't know that the problem statement implies that there is a single integer m for which f takes on each value at most m times. if it somehow does that seems like a separate argument.
 
7:33 PM
Not a picture. Where's $f$? And no sequences when you are going to give me a $\delta$!
 
you don't seem to use this, but you state it. that is a quibble.
 
I taught Spivak's book at least 15 times, BTW.
 
I thought that was obvious because the hypothesis says finitely many times
@TedShifrin: Great sir ๐Ÿ˜Š
@leslietownes: Hypothesis says finitely many times so why can't I.
 
for all x there is m such that blah is not there is m such that for all x blah
 
Ahh I think I got your point
It's like $m$ can be different for each x blah
 
7:37 PM
yeah. i say this is a quibble because whatever argument you've got going probably doesn't need that stronger assumption.
 
won't tell Koro to look for Ted's name in Spivakโ€™s preface
2
 
@barista the fraction field of the ring of integers in a number field is that very number field
 
Yeah yeah I was just about to respond to you ๐Ÿ˜ƒ
@leslietownes
 
ted is not only famous, he is spivak famous.
 
Ha ha, and in Griffiths/Harris too, but not so substantively :)
 
7:40 PM
@TedShifrin Oh my God!! Really ?? I never noticed. I'll take a look right now. Sir, I have heard about your book though and I'm also aware that your video lectures are available online.
 
@Thorgott Is that an obvious fact? I can't see
 
@leslietownes: So except that $m$ part, I take everything else is correct. In fact, we may ignore $m$ altogether as I never used it in my proof. Right?
 
@Leslie In this problem, a contradiction proof would never occur to me.
 
@TedShifrin: I got your point. You want a delta. No sequences.
Right. I'm thinking on this. It should be doable.
 
Yup.
And a proper picture will give it to you.
 
7:45 PM
@BalarkaSen I have heard that you cleared the TIFR GS i-phd entrance exam in '21. First of all, many Congratulations for that! So, can you please share some questions from Algebra and Analysis which they asked in your interview in TIFR, Mumbai!
 
@sayan If you search, you will see that Balarka posted the questions. Mostly topology (non-trivial topology).
 
@ted i am naturally contrary
 
@barista try proving that any element in the number field has an integral multiple
use the fact that a number field is algebraic over $\mathbb{Q}$
 
8:06 PM
That goes without saying.
 
8:22 PM
@Thorgott Ok I think I get it
 
8:37 PM
my daughter got to ride on a pony this morning. a few hours later, the only thing she remembers is that the pony urinated at one point. she can't stop talking about it.
 
that's funny.
i used to bring my kids to oakland zoo more or less once a week. one week the giant tortoises were in heat and hard at it, along with unmistakable sounds that could be heard around the entire zoo. so we just had to go to observe the slow motion antics.
 
:)
I think now I managed to prove the result using direct epsilon delta also
I'll share it shortly.
@lesli and @Ted
 
8:54 PM
Great @Koro!
It's nice to do a constructive $\delta$-$\epsilon$ argument when one can :)
 
I have updated the usage instructions for ChatJax on the installation page so that it will hopefully be easier for Chrome on Android. Dima Pasechnik on MathOverflow helped greatly and Use Bookmarklets on Chrome on Android was also very helpful.
4
 
You're still learning stuff, @robjohn!! :)
 
@TedShifrin I hope to never stop!
 
Good for you! :)
 
9:09 PM
I just made one more tweak and set it to use MathJax 2.7.5 rather than 2.7.1
so there is also a change to the bookmarklet, though probably not a very noticeable one.
 
it's asking me to contribute to robjohn's dogecoin wallet. is that expected behavior?
 
@leslietownes of course ;-)
 
Serves you right for being android.
 
is there a real alternative to android?
 
smacks copper into oblivion
 
9:20 PM
@ted and @leslie
Here's the epsilon delta argument, please refer to proof 2 in this
 
@Koro: Well, you never drew the picture, but you had the right idea. I don't understand why the proof is so complicated. By the intermediate value property, the function has to be within the $\epsilon$-band if $|x-a|<\delta$. I admit I did not read your argument.
 
@TedShifrin: I did draw the picture though not uploaded it and that's how I got the idea actually. The idea being that there's a strip around $a$ where $f$ is either strictly increasing or decreasing.
 
I don't see why we even need that.
I can see why you end up with proofs by contradiction if you're trying to argue that.
 
Because that makes the function quite predictable and easy to handle :) And that even gave an expression (explicit) for delta.
that^=monotonic
The idea followed from drawing picture as you suggested :)
I though about $\sin (1/x)$ too which satisfies IVT but didn't fit in here due to finitely many times term in hypothesis
 
I don't need that to get the explicit $\delta$. I get the same $\delta$ that you have. And, yes, I need a little contradiction argument to show that $|f(x)-f(a)|<\epsilon$ for $|x-a|<\delta$.
 
9:30 PM
So I could go ahead with the existence of strips around $a$ where $f$ is either strictly decreasing or increasing.
 
OK, I will quit discussing this.
 
@TedShifrin Sir, I avoided using contradiction as much as possible because as you said earlier: direct proof. :)
 
9:45 PM
Thanks a lot @leslie and @Ted for helping me solve this problem today. Many thanks :)
 
so, I have $g(x) = 2x$ and $f[g(x), x] = g(x) + 3x$, so I have $\Delta f = g'(x) \Delta x + 3 \Delta x + \epsilon \Delta x$, where $\epsilon \Delta x$ is the error representing the difference between $df$ and $\Delta f$. Does $\Delta f$ have some known name, i.e. is it any important function in analysis?
 
when my daughter was young she was fascinated by horses, so we sat down and typed in horses and searched. was not expecting a graphic depiction of catherine the great to pop up.
 
hahaha
 
haha
 
9:58 PM
@shintuku it's a linear approximation
right, thanks
 
@robjohn yes, that is exactly how I think of cos and sin (literally everytime I need to evaluate a trig function I draw a unit circle and then throw all hard work out the window by rounding to the nearest $\frac{\pi}{4}$)
 
fixing x, and some increment h, Delta f is just f(x + h) - f(x)
it doesn't have a nicer name. it can certainly be written in terms of other Deltas plus an error, but that's just what it is. unless i'm missing something.
 
no you are perfectly right
 
i really think it's helpful not to use notation that suppresses where things are being evaluated and what the increment is. using "Delta x" as a name for a quantity that can vary independently of x (i call it h) is traditional but in my opinion a bad idea.
but i'm on my crank soapbox again.
 
i've borrowed your technique and just began using differential quotients as representations of limits
 
10:02 PM
some people become very skilled in properly leibniz notation, deltas, ds, etc. without ever worrying about this stuff or even noticing it. i am not among those people, i need to learn what my notation is forgetting before i forget it.
 
life is better now
 
hello. suppose I have a sum $S(N):=\sum_{n=1}^{N}f(n)$, which isn't convergent (oscillating infinitely many times) but it takes a finite value $c$ infinitely many often. is there some kind of "limit" where we can say $L=\lim_{N\to\infty}S(N)$ so that $L= c$? (not talking about liminf/limsup) Is this "limit" meaningless? Does it even make sense?
 
Sometimes I'm very tempted to write this: If for every $\epsilon\lt 0$ there exists a $\delta\gt 0$ such that $|x-a|\lt \delta\implies |f(x)-f(a)|\lt -\epsilon$ then $f$ is said to be continuous at $a$ and we write $\lim_{x\to a}f(x)=f(a)$.
negative epsilon looks so much unclimatic.
 
note that there might be infinitely many c for which the partial sums assume the value c infinitely often. in such an instance your 'limit' would have to pick one. nothing wrong with doing so, but it gets subtle if you want your "limit" to behave like a limit (i.e., have similar algebraic properties) on a set of sequences that is larger than the single one you are considering.
you might be interested in en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banach_limit
the shift invariance of banach limits sometimes limits the possible values that the banach limit can take on a non-convergent sequence. given S, you might not be able to find a banach limit L with L(S) = sup {S_n: n in N} for example, even if the sup is attained infinitely many times.
for example if you want to extend "lim" from convergent sequences in a shift-invariant and linear way to a set of sequences that includes (-1)^n, your "lim" must assign the sequence (-1)^n the value 0. you can't give it the value 1 (or -1) without breaking shift invariance or linearity
 
10:17 PM
There's an exercise in Coxeter's Geometry Revisited where I'm having trouble determining what it's asking.
 
is it posted somewhere? do you want to share it?
 
Specifically, "[in ref to a generic triangle $ABC$] Let $p,q$ be the radii of two circles through $A$, touching $BC$ at $B$ and $C$, respectively. Then $pq = R^2$ [where $R$ is the circumradius]."
 
@leslietownes Interesting. What if I have an error term $\espsilon(N)$, which would go to zero as $N\to\infty$. (In this case I'm talking about a "normal or usual limit"). Furthermore $F(N):=S(N)+\espsilon(N)$, where $S(N)$ denotes my previous defined sum and it takes the values $c_1$ and $c_2$ infinitely many often ($c_1\neq c_2$). Now let the "special limit" go to infinity and we'll arrive to $F(N)=c_1=c_2$, a contradiction? How should I handle this? Does the Banach limit consider such a case?
 
i don't see how you compute with your 'special limit' without assuming more about it than i have seen. maybe i have missed something.
a banach limit would assign the same value to F and S but at this level of generality (assuming only that S assumes some value infinitely many times) you would not be able to get your hands on what that value would be
fargle as i read it, you've got a circle that goes through both A and B, and a circle that goes through both A and C. they have some radii p, q - which are not determined by this information, but somehow their product is, and is the square of the circumradius of the triangle.
 
Thanks for introducing the Banach limit!
 
10:24 PM
thank banach.
 
@Banach Thanks for introducing the Banach limit!
 
Hi @Fargle, old friend!
 
I don't see how the product could possibly be determined, though, which is what's throwing me.
Like I think I can let $p,q$ get arbitrarily large.
 
I think touching means tangent to โ€ฆ
 
That would change things.
 
10:27 PM
He didn't need to mention the line segment for what you're thinking.
 
That's a good point, yeah.
 
+1 for Ted
 
that makes more sense.
 
Hi, can you take a look at this?
0
Q: Dual of Sharpe ratio problem

statwomanConsider the optimization problem of maximizing the Sharpe Ratio, given a riskless asset with the return $r>0$ and $n = 5$ possible risky assets whose expected return is $\mu$ and covariance matrix of returns is $Q$. Assume that the amount invested in the third asset should be no greater than the...

 
10:47 PM
@AndrewMicallef @leslietownes, so I didn't get very far last night on this. I'm focusing on playing with the lefthandside (ie the trig functions) but not sure what I can do to get $it$ out of $\cost + i\sin\t$.
 
Want a hint?
 
Oh hey there @TedShifrin, same question as above. yes just a hint
 
Taylor series or differential equations
I know nothing other than these options.
 
is there not a geometric way, or is that just too complicated?
okay, no worries
 
Will I lose my license if I say no geometry here?
 
10:50 PM
the time it seams has come for me to read up on Taylor :P
do you hold a geometry license?
is that like a pen license?
 
I think Leslie will sternly rebuke me.
Not to mention the dozen people who poke fun at my โ€œa geometric approach.โ€
 
hey dumb other question for you: what happens to a circle if $\pi = 4$, or $\pi = 3$
 
Measurement goes to hell?
 
can / does that happen in convex / concave "spaces"
 
Circumference is no longer linear in radius.
 
10:53 PM
I'll accept measurment goes to hell
 
You can figure it out on a sphere.
 
oh, so the ratio is no longer a scalar but a function
 
You want a function of the radius โ€ฆ no ratio.
E.g. on the unit sphere it is $2\pi\sin r$.
 
Ah fair enough, maybe I will come back to this after taylor, it just poped into my head after I was thinking about what happens when you just use silly approximations
 
In hyperbolic geometry, $\sinh r$.
 
10:57 PM
is $h$ a paramater related to the curvature?
 
Hyperbolic sine
 
oh yeah, of course
 
I'm assuming $\pm 1$ curvature.
 
well, I'm off to find that chapter on Taylor series that I keep skipping. ciao
 
Ciao
 
11:01 PM
ted, last night my stab at a geometric way was to do cos and sin geometrically and then just define e^(it) via that formula. so you can deduce various exponential identities from everybody's favorite pictures of triangles.
this obviously was not well adapted to proving the identity, and of no help at all. but defining one's way out of a box is always an option.
 
is this entirely determined by curvature?
I know that, conversely, curvature can be recovered from the circumference of geodesic circles
 
@Thor: Yes. In non-constant curvature, you get limits of ratios as $r\to 0$.
@leslie That doesn't seem to explain anything, does it? I mean โ€” how does the exponential get in there?
 
no, it doesn't explain anything.
 
11:28 PM
Crap. I just tried the mobile site and I don't see the sidebar at all. I can get site info, but the links for the guidelines and LaTeX in chat are not clickable. How do people get the bookmark on the mobile site these days? I can get the full site, but that is crappy that we can't see the sidebar info.
 
There's all sorts of things I can't see/do on mobile.
If someone deletes a post that I've commented on, I can see the post on my computer, but not on mobile.
 
I just tried to update my chatjax bookmark and had a hard time.
 
The sidebar never shows up on mobile.
Am I supposed to be trying to update?
 
The change is not great. I don't know what changed between MathJax 2.7.1 and 2.7.5. I was mainly doing it to check out the user experience.
 
Well, unless you ask me to be a guinea pig, I will leave well enough alone :)
 
11:30 PM
it sucks
yeah, don't be a pig!
 
I'm already planning to be a piggy tonight. My penultimate pre-colonscopy dinner.
 
My condolences on the upcoming intestinal invasion!
 
Thanks ...
 
Weโ€™re going out to pick up some Japanese food now.
Udon for me, with Hamaroko.
 
You dine five hours before the genteel European dinner time!
What is or are Hamaroko?
 
11:41 PM
i like sashimi
 
Are you another carb-hater?
 
on nooo, i love carbs
spuds mainly :-)
and fresh bread
 
I love pasta and rice more than spuds, but I do make potato galettes frequently and smashed potatoes as a treat.
 
not a huge fan of straight white rice. until recently a friend made me a pound of fresh pasta every week, was the culinary highlight for me, just with basil pesto for the most part.
i like wild rice.
 
Wild rice is great. I only do plain white rice with Asian food. Otherwise I make pilaf with onions, stock, ...
 
11:46 PM
i am a bit of a Neanderthal with food, (very) loosely the less processed/cooked the better.
 
You only eat your meat raw off the carcass?
 
i do like steak tartare
 
I used to ... I'm not sure I'd trust it now except at an extremely expensive restaurant. I did make it a few times 20+ years ago.
 
uh
 
yes, that is an issue. had caught me once badly.
 
11:48 PM
I have the following differential:
$df = \lim \limits_{h \to 0} f[g(w+h)] - f[g(w)]$
after staring at this equation for about 40 minutes I have had the flash of insight that this could be$\frac{\partial f}{\partial g} \frac{\partial g}{\partial w}$, but I have no clue why. it just feels like for a small enough $h$, somehow multiplication would magically work like function composition. am I completely wrong?
 
i would imagine it to be zero unless your function is unusual
 
I hate that notation with a passion.
I don't think the question is well-posed.
 
well, sorry about the lack of clarity, it was literally just revealed to me by the math gods a few moments ago
 
If I do linear approximation, I have $$f(g(w+h)) - f(g(w)) = (f\circ g)'(w)h + o(h).$$
The chain rule tells you that the derivative of a composition is the composition of the derivatives.
 
well, this is to be used in the proof of the chain rule so I can't go there yet
 
11:51 PM
But writing differentials (whatever you know those to be) with a limit makes no sense.
 
right
 
Do linear approximation of $g$ inside $f(g(w+h))$. A proof of the chain rule is in every decent analysis book (including my own or my YouTube lectures in the multivariable case).
 
i will undertake linear approximation
 
The derivative is linear approximation. This is the essential viewpoint once you get past beginning calculus.
 
that's what I'm sort of beginning to see. for small enough numbers, everything is a multiplication of lines
and composition is beginning to look like multiplication
 
11:59 PM
In one dimension. Composition of linear functions multiplies slopes. In higher dimensions, you need matrices.
 

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