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23:00
GHZ
thats a state
Spin-spin-spin correlations :)
I’m not touching 3 party stuff right now tho
GHZ is defined by partial trace of guy k on GHZ is the totally mixed state, right?
More looking at generalizing to more observables and outcomes
Sounds right
googling spin spin spin correlation only gives me spin spin correlation
23:05
Anyways. Suppose you want to characterize what observables you can extract from the correlations among the three observables each has access to. Based on what I just said, that amounts to characterizing the vector (C(a,b),C(b,c),C(a,c)) where a,b,c are the three allowed measurement directions
If I label that as (x,y,z) for short, it turns out that they must satisfy $x^2+y^2+z^2\leq 2xyz+1$
ah, yeah, dont do it with one number, do it with 3 numbers
(You also need $(x,y,z)\in [-1,1]^3$ of course)
So that’s the allowed set of quantum correlations, as it were.
ive seen that before I think
Now you can ask what correlations you could produce classically, if you assume that all three spin observables had well-defined values even when you don’t observe them
And it works out to be nice: it’s just a tetrahedron. Specifically, it’s got vertices at (1,1,1), (-1,-1,1), (-1,1,-1), and (1,-1,-1)
Which you can check is embedded nicely inside that quantum set
right
23:12
So you have a polytope inside the quantum set
Now, suppose you want to generalize this setup to involve particles of higher spin eg s=1
On the quantum side, nothing much changes: the same proportionality result I gave earlier occurs, just with a different constant
Things are a bit dicier on the classical side: you need to impose some extra restrictions to make sure you get the same variances as in the quantum case
But once the dust settles (and this is what I’ve been working on showing) you get another polytope embedded in the quantum set
It’s a polytope with more facets, but it’s still a polytope
hold up, before the classical version would have been "my spin is a point on $S^2$, i send a probablitly distribution p(x_1,x_2) with domain $S^2\times S^2$"
whats the classical version for spin 1?
Well. the classical version for s=1/2 is that the allowed outcomes for Alice’s observables are each $\pm 1/2$
And the outcomes for Bon are opposite, to ensure perfect anticorrelation
guys
if I have a a sequence
that satisfies
So that’s 2^3 options. However, you require that each observable be unbiased ie +1/2 as often as -1/2. So you effectively just need to choose four probabilities
ls_(n+1)-s_nl <= 1/2^n
how do i show its cauchy?
im trying to write it in terms
23:21
@maths: Use the triangle inequality to find $|s_m-s_n|$ (assume $m>n$).
Ok, for spin 1/2 you have classically: A (symmetric around $0$) probability distribution on $\{\pm\}^3\times \{\pm\}^3$ which you can tune as you like. The most possible correlation is given by XXX
im trying to write in a telescoping form
but i'm not sure how to do it
How do you write $s_{n+2}-s_n$?
23:22
You just wrote it, Ted!
smacks Demonark for being particularly unhelpful
:P, how's everything going?
With s=1, you allow -1,0,1. So that’s 3^3 =27. (The unbiased condition knocks you down to 14)
well what i got is 1/2^(n-1)+1/2^(n-2) +.......+(1/2^m)
but im not sure how to proceed
Back later, need dinner
23:23
i know its a geometric series
It probably should start at $1/2^n$ and end with $1/2^{m-1}$, @maths, but you skipped the important part. So you know how to get that as an upper bound on $|s_m-s_n|$? Oh, you're assuming $m<n$ instead of $m>n$. I see.
1/2^n
they already gave me an upper boubd
in the question
Where did you get that sum?
I wrote ls_(n+1)-s_nl in telescoping form then used the triangle inequality
Oh, ok, so you do understand that. Now you're almost done. How do you find the geometric series $\sum\limits_{k=m}^{n-1} 1/2^k$? Don't you know a formula?
Or even $\sum\limits_{k=m}^\infty 1/2^k$?
23:31
I do, u1(1-r^n)/(1-r)
OK, then you're done. You need to get the letters matching the problem you have, but the idea is there.
but i'm not sure if r should be to the power of n
You need to know what the notation in your formula actually means.
u1 is the first term
What is that formula giving the sum of?
23:33
r is the ratio
finite geometric series
first term, or zeroth term?
@Semiclassical alright, I'm off too bed^^
Maybe first. You need to write down what things mean and then you'll have it figured out.
To be blunt: You shouldn't be doing Cauchy sequences if you can't figure out basic geometric series.
maybe, but thats subjective. I understand how to derive the formula for the geometric series, but i'm just confused about the limits of the sum thats all
23:37
LOL, no, it's really not subjective.
Best thing to do is factor out $1/2^m$ and make it a sum starting at $k=0$ and going to whatever ...
@s.harp night
@TedShifrin oh, I did manage to get a picture of my final polytope:
really?
I don't see 60 facets :P
the 6D polytope has 30 facets. But once you intersect with the relevant 3D affine subspace, you get the above
23:41
I only see 4 facets, so plenty are hidden.
hi Kasmir
if we have a matrix that represent a linear map from V to W
and we know how that matrix looks like
and we need to find a basis forV and one for W
we can do it in many ways right?
No, you need to know the basis before you know what the matrix means.
no no
this is a question that gives us a matrix
oups
23:43
Don't tell me no.
@TedShifrin yeah. It's the convex hull of eight points: $(1,1,1),(1,-1,-1),(-1,1,-1),(-1,-1,1),(-1/2,-1/2,-1/2),(-1/2,1/2,1/2),(1/2,-1/2‌​,1/2),(1/2,1/2,-1/2)$
i meant i wrote wrong
what the question is asking for a basis for V and W
and we do know the matrix
As usual, you're giving us half-questions.
What you're saying makes no sense.
><
hmm
we know how the matrix looks like
so basically you take a tetrahedron and add an extra point just above the center of each base, splitting each tetrahedral face into three triangular facets
23:44
The matrix represents the coefficients
How does a matrix represent a linear map?
T : V---> W
Oh, that's amazingly symmetric, @Semiclassic
T(e_1) =first colum
etc
What is $e_1$?
23:45
first vector in our basis of V
So you need to know the basis vectors for $V$ and $W$ or you cannot write the matrix.
@TedShifrin yeah. It's not surprising, tbh: the vertices of the original polytope had quite a bit of symmetry
Maybe symmetry would have been a good approach to the problem, then, @Semiclassic.
T(e_1)=coefficient 1w1+coefficient 2 w2 +....coefficient nwn where n dimW
possibly, yeah
23:46
the coefficients are written as columns
hmm the thing is , we do have what the vector spaces are, they are known,
Correct, @maths. You too are starting out by knowing the basis vectors in the domain and range.
we also know the matrix that represent the map
Kasmir. You keep repeating yourself and ignoring what I've said.
3
what we need to figure out is, based on that matrix, what is the basis for the domain space and range space
Ted! this is a question in the book of LA
23:47
That's still garbage.
Post the exact question as it is in the book.
@TedShifrin the main reason I wanted to approach this in the full context was because I wanted a method that was exhaustive
Sure, @Semiclassic. Do you think you have a good algorithm now?
Yes and no.
Well, that's definitive.
I know what the steps of the algorithm are.
The trouble is that the way I did the facet enumeration step was rather laborious. I need to get a version of it which I can just plug-and-play in mathematica
23:49
D in L ( P_3(R), P_2(R) differentiation map
So there's some implementation details to iron out.
OK, so they gave you the linear map to start with.
You didn't tell me that. You just said you had a matrix.
my point was in general
Can you write down the standard bases for $P_3$ and $P_2$ and what the matrix for $D$ is with respect to those bases?
can we have two matrices representing same map ?
23:51
You know the answer to that.
with different basis we can
yes because you can have different basis
but the thing is , i found a basis for V and W
You can have uncountably many matrices.
ted are you the author of multivariable mathematics?
23:51
Yes.
(And several other books :P)
I have your book, it's a great book.
Thanks :)
Did my hint on the geometric series enable you to finish OK?
@TedShifrin I really do need a good algorithm to make this work. my next case has 32 points in R^6 instead of 14 :)
That's only a factor of $2$, @Semiclassic :P
23:53
@TedShifrin yes i did that
lol, yeah
but what I did was to find a basis
i look at first colum
I plan on purchasing your linear algebra book as well
Once you start with a linear map and start with bases for $V$ and $W$, then you find the matrix. You can also use the change of basis formula.
and then look at D(v_1 ) = first colum
23:54
@maths: Probably not worth it. It's only got a couple of chapters of stuff not in the other book.
in my case, first column is ( 1 0 0 ) ^T
so ,that vector is connected with " x"
There's some cool stuff on projective geometry and computer graphics, some differential equations, some complex matrices, and some applications (like graph theory). It's meant for a less sophisticated audience.
because D(x) = 1
23:55
@Kasmir: No. Give me the bases first.
(0 1 0 0 ) ^T = x in P_3(R)
1,x,x^2,x^3
So you're using the standard bases in both spaces.
I cant do that in this case
because they gave me a matrix that i need to follow
23:56
Let's just do the standard matrix first.
aha i know how it is
If we don't know either basis we can't do it, @Kasmir.
Too much unknown.
that is the odd part
but the thing is we know the map is to take derivative
hmmmmmmmm
Let me link the question
I icant type it because of 3x4 matrix
Ted, what books do you suggest to start tackling differential geometry?
If I tell you I have the identity map on $\Bbb R^3$, I can write down lots of matrices and you won't know the bases (unless you know they're the same in both domain and range).
Start with my (free) text, @maths. Freely linked in my profile.

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